Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

Discuss releases in the Janus Contemporaries, Eclipse, and Essential Art House lines and the films on them.
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Dragoon En Regalia
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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#76 Post by Dragoon En Regalia » Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:10 pm

Ugo Cardea surely baffles the eyes. His facial profile and big eyebrows really stick out, making him the perfect choice for Cartesius. Not to mention great acting ability.

I feel like the films were straddling the line between dramatized history and a cinéma vérité history film, and they ever succeed at being both, or one of them at least. Whereas Age of the Medici feels lively and optimistic, with individuals mired in statistics and flexible rivalry, the people's represented in the other films showcase complex, conflicted times. And, given how mortal and divided Europe was in the 17th century, the films reflect the bleakness of Europe's future, primarily through Descartes' isolation and Pascal's inner death.

Either way, though, they're all great films. But even I feel that their potential was cut short by a lack of planning, either in stylization or in brevity.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#77 Post by ellipsis7 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:52 am

Two brief points to put these pieces into context - these films were watched by incredible audiences in Italy & France at the time, so arguably they are some of the most succesful work of RR's career... Rossellini's collected writings on the broad didactic project and the individual titles can be found in French, in the Cahiers du Cinema book, La télévision comme utopie, while the excellent introductory essay there by the editor Adriano Apro ('Rossellini's Historical Encyclopaedia') is also to be found in English in the BFI book Roberto Rossellini: Magician of the Real.... The ambition, scope and brilliance of the whole endeavour becomes apparent... For instance one of his unmade ideas was a cinematic canvas tracing the history of food through the ages...

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#78 Post by colinr0380 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:34 am

ellipsis, these films (or at least the three that I have had the opportunity to see so far - I still have the Louis XIV film to watch) made me think that they are Rossellini's filmic form of treatise. Individual studies meant to be appreciated for how they fit into a whole and, similar to the way Descartes talks of his seemingly disparate learning adding up to a wholistic view of his subject, that seems to be Rossellini also speaking about this project through his character. Either that or following in Descarte's footsteps!
Dragoon En Regalia wrote:
stroszeck wrote:Cartesius in particular was not particularly interesting to me, although there were some brilliant dialogue scenes and very closely mannered, intriguing performances. Plus was it me or does Ugo Cardea have the strangest eyebrows in all of filmdom? I was strangely hypnotized by his contemplative gazes.
Ugo Cardea surely baffles the eyes. His facial profile and big eyebrows really stick out, making him the perfect choice for Cartesius. Not to mention great acting ability.

I feel like the films were straddling the line between dramatized history and a cinéma vérité history film, and they ever succeed at being both, or one of them at least. Whereas Age of the Medici feels lively and optimistic, with individuals mired in statistics and flexible rivalry, the people's represented in the other films showcase complex, conflicted times. And, given how mortal and divided Europe was in the 17th century, the films reflect the bleakness of Europe's future, primarily through Descartes' isolation and Pascal's inner death.

Either way, though, they're all great films. But even I feel that their potential was cut short by a lack of planning, either in stylization or in brevity.
Watching Blaise Pascal straight after Cartesius I was pleasantly surprised to see the character of Father Mersenne reappear as a kind of patron for Pascal, and it was even more amusing to see an entirely different kind of portrayal of Descartes from the one Ugo Cardea does in the later film dedicated entirely to him in the scene where Blaise visits and listens to one of his lectures. That I think is my favourite scene from Blaise Pascal, showing a discussion between important thinkers of their times that doesn't exactly take the form of a one-sided lecture, instead more of a point-counterpoint presentation of different approaches to their studies.

I really felt as if I only really had trouble with Age of the Medici, whereas the other two films I was able to watch without such problems. Perhaps this is to do with the solipsistic characters who due to the internal nature of their studies necessarily have to be the centrepieces of their films, whereas Cosimo de Medici is much more an enabler or icon of the times and the action in that film so widely spread across so many characters that there is a very disorienting sense of there being no real strong centre to the film for a viewer.

For example Leon Battista Alberti is a strong character through the second two films but himself is regularly lost in the crowd. The major example of what feels like the main character Thomas Wadding from the first section is a good example, as is Machiavelli in accompanying him to Florence and touring him around the city. Yet they never appear again once the silk weaver's guild has punished the forger. There's also the high point of Fred Ward's appearance in episode two, really energising the action as the Muslim convert regaling the group with tales of his adventures, who then pops up again to end the second episode with a highly amusing summation of capitalist practices! Many other, less well introduced, characters appear and disappear back into history throughout - it is a nice stylistic conceit but does prevent the audience from understanding the world through any strong ongoing identification with particular characters or character arcs. I suppose though that it makes Cosimo (and later Leon Battista) more important almost by default as they are the few characters that the film returns to for more than a handful of scenes.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#79 Post by knives » Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:51 pm

I think the main difference between Age of the Medici and the other three that Criterion have released is that it deliberately refuses to have a charactered center to it. Rossellini's goals with those three films better fit to their characters, but as the title announces this isn't really about any one character or rather what Rossellini believes they represent, but rather a portrait of the whole era. In one sense it is his final statement of the era (which explains Cartesius's radically different approach becoming a metaphor for the creative life) and probably more notably the use of money for the era. In that sense perhaps the film is closer to his The Age of Iron and planned food film. I'd argue Cosimo is not so much a character within the film as an object of change in creating the merchant class and capitalism. This makes me wonder if his planned Marx film would have functioned as a sequel to this epic?

This is all a long way of saying that the film may be an easier watch to do (as I do) and stand by the POV of hands as they exchange money and change the way that money is used as viewed as. This is all hinted at with the opening set of sequences which don't introduce any character we follow (if I remember correctly Cosimo doesn't appear until halfway through the funeral), but instead get the set of rules in which money, inheritance, and the like is utilized in this world. This is a film of externalized evolution like a Cronenberg film.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#80 Post by movielocke » Mon May 18, 2015 9:03 pm

The Age of Medici is presented on eclipse in three 85 minute parts, which makes it far more digestible than the terrorizing length of 255 minutes, I wound up watching one part per night, mini-series style, probably closer to how it was meant to be seen.

I wound up watching the first two parts in English, in part because of this thread. Each following morning, I rewatched parts of the films in Italian. The Italian was so much better performed, that I watched the final part in Italian and it was the most satisfying experience of the three episodes. The English dub is dire, it is of poor quality with inconsistent performances and accents; the whole thing is drab with most of the actors intoning soporific readings, I'd call the vocals of the English dub wooden, but I've come across far more compelling wood, so I'd hate to insult trees en masse with such a critique. This is a shame because the visuals are dense and wonderfully realized, it's a beautifully rendered production on par with Louis XIV and I often felt distracted when I was watching the subtitled versions.

I doubt it would ever happen, but it would be fantastic to see a beautifully produced new English language dub for the film, and I imagine it's the sort of thing Rossellini would like.

The first part of The Age of Medici concerns itself with the rise and exile of Cosimo de Medici. The series opens with the death of the Medici patriarch, and through a remarkable sequence at the wake Rossellini walks us through all the exposition we will need, introducing characters and factions. the ruling elite of Florence feel threatened by the capitalistic pacifism espoused by the Medicis (war is bad for business), and eventually succeed in exiling the new patriarch at the end of the first night's episode.

One of the best things about the film is the way it deeply embeds you within the milieu of Florence, scenes walk us through the trade, banking, craftsmanship and R&D of the early stages of Renaissance, its wonderful and rarely done, and it helps to really embed you in the time period, and the limitations of the knowledge within that time period, far more effectively than the typical anachronistic approaches that seem to be unable to conceive of different, ancient mindsets. It's amazing how different it feels to be in these rossellini worlds for a few weeks.

The second part concerns itself with the political machinations Cosimo sets in place to enable his return. he succeeds and also leverages his association with a new pope to further enhance his scope of influence. We are more deeply embedded into the politics of the time, and now art is becoming a major part of the city, as trade increases. The episode ends on a highlight monologue of an 'exotic' trader regaling his audience with tall tales of his travels.

The third part more or less completely discards Cosimo as a character, or his heirs, and instead focuses on a church cleric, Alberti, who is an intellectual obsessed with art and architecture, he makes an out of left field cameo in the second episode, for an extended viewing of Donatello's workshop, and suddenly he becomes the main character of episode three. This is perhaps my favorite episode because it gets so intricately into the political and physical machinations of how shit gets done. Rome wasn't built in a day, it did require someone to want to build it a certain way and and the knowhow and expertise to build it. So we see Alberti's transition, from Florence cleric critic he is elevated by a new and ambitious pope to become the architect in charge of restoring and rebuilding Rome. There's a central scene that goes into a workshop where many primitive machines are assisting in manufacturing objects, such as a metal file. You could spend an entire episode in just this location, it is tremendously fascinating. We skip ahead at the end of the episode to see Alberti, now aged, reflecting on his successes, it's a bit abrupt to skip so much time, but it's a perfectly appropriate grace note for a film that covers such a sweeping era, and it offers a fine conclusion to the series.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#81 Post by tag gallagher » Mon May 18, 2015 10:03 pm

A lot of the English is indeed dire, particularly some of the bit players; but don't you think Cosimo and Alberti are okay? The English version is the original; most of the actors spoke English during the shoot; so it's their own voices and the lip synch of the principals excellent; and their English vocal expression (whether you like it or not) corresponds with their facial expression and body language.

I don't know whose voices the Italian voices are. But Rossellini had nothing to do with the Italian dubbing. My Italian acquaintances love the Italian dubbing.

I think the priority is to do without the subtitles. It's a visual movie. Reading subtitles is catastrophic, unless your interest is primarily the spoken word.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#82 Post by movielocke » Mon May 18, 2015 11:12 pm

Yes cosimo has the best english language performance, and alberti is pretty good too. With decades of viewing subtitles I'm pretty good at seeing the visuals too, but subtitles do create a break in the visual flow and editorial rhythm. And I think they make your brain engage differently than it engages with just a picture and sound.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#83 Post by tag gallagher » Tue May 19, 2015 12:47 am

Yes, I agree. I think the important thing is to get involved with the character, just as you would with Ford of Mizoguchi or... The words are less important in themselves than the person saying them, and all the genius of the Renaissance is reflection of these persons. With subtitles, I cannot fixate on eye contact, on the character's vibes. Till I was 50 I swore by subtitles and excoriated dubbing; now I disagree with my former self. I know I lose far far more than I gain, with subtitles. Which isn't to deny the glory and beauty of some recitation. So if you can understand the Italian without subtitles, that's would be a feast. But I like very much the way Cosimo speaks; it's really a perfect voice for someone so snakey. Alberti meanwhile is so pedantic as to be obnoxious; I wonder if RR intended this, at any real the voice is deliberate. The real Alberti was renown for his charm; also for his organ playing and gymnastics: from a standing position he could jump over a man's head.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#84 Post by black&huge » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:19 pm

thought I'd ask I'm wanting to really get this set but I am not so knowledgeable on Rossellini's output in this period. Are the history films collected in the eclipse set all of them or just the essentials?

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#85 Post by swo17 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:24 pm

It's definitely not all of them and I haven't seen the others to comment as to which are "essential." Blaise Pascal (included in the set) is one of my favorite films of his though, for whatever that's worth

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#86 Post by knives » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:45 pm

It's not the essentials either. It's just the ones with a shared setting. Some are better and some are merely good.
Last edited by knives on Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#87 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:28 pm

I'd argue they're the best (with Louis XIV that has its own release). Socrates is in the same league, but Augustine of Hippo definitely not. It's hard for me to rate Acts of the Apostles because the quality of the rip available is so poor.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#88 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:45 pm

Yep, what RV said. Socrates may be my favorite of the histories depending on the day, but Cartesius and Blaise Pascal are right up there. Definitely an acquired taste though, and I’m admittedly not as keen on them as others here- though I do think very highly of those three.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#89 Post by tag gallagher » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:04 am

Here's a link to download an mkv, with optional English subtitles, of the French edition of SOCRATE. Although Criterion is streaming it they have used the Italian dubbing, which is grossly inferior to the French. Socrates was played by a French actor who then dubbed himself, and he's much more intelligent than in French than whoever dubbed the Italian. Also, the script is different throughout.: https://1fichier.com/?rcb4y0qpef

And here also is the French INDIA MATRI BHUMI. Again Criterion has chosen the inferior Italian in place of the original French and also have chosen an edition which cuts off the last two minutes and omits, earlier, one of the most beautiful shots in cinema: https://1fichier.com/?356yzfy1yg

Criterion originally planned a second Eclipse volume containg Soc, Augi and Acts of the Apostles. The latter is the stumbling block, albeit one of Rossellini's very very best movies. It's unclear whether a better visual source can be found than the earliest vhs editions. Again the French edition is to be preferred, as Peter and Paul who talk a lot are both French actors. But RR wanted people to see these movies in their own language, and there is an American dubbing of about 2/3s of the picture. I've also made a dvd of this (with multiple language options) and adjusted the video best I could, but I don't currently have mkv links to post.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#90 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:19 pm

Thanks so much. A proper release of Socrates and Acts would be incredible.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#91 Post by tag gallagher » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:25 pm

I'm afraid I"m as proper as there'll be!

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#92 Post by tag gallagher » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:26 pm

Please disseminate the lins.

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#93 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:37 pm

In regards to Rossellini's The Iron Age documentary, is that available anywhere to see?

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Re: Eclipse Series 14: Rossellini's History Films

#94 Post by tag gallagher » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:19 pm

It might be on kg, in Italian without subtitles. It was directed by Renzo, as were most but parts of the first two chapters of La lotta. Interesting for the concept and choices, but not as cinema art.

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Blaise Pascal (Roberto Rossellini, 1972)

#95 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:40 am

DISCUSSION ENDS MONDAY, February 6th

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Re: Blaise Pascal (Roberto Rossellini, 1972)

#96 Post by knives » Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:02 pm

I’m going to try to make two more longer posts in this style and content, but don’t quote me on that. In any case this one will tackle the film directly.


One of the more interesting points of departure for Rossellini I’m the history films was how untethered the world seems from the concept of protagonist. Rossellini’s heroes are largely the same, but they don’t take the outsized role they once did. This is witnessed by how none of the most famous sayings and ideas of his protagonists appear. Most interesting is how so many of them have prologues removed from the protagonists with them accidentally falling into the story. The most memorable example for me is The Age of the Medici where an entire family is invisible to a pair of men in a field.

Pascal is hidden from us and the world at the start with our seeming protagonist almost accidentally stumbling upon him 14 minutes into the picture ensconced among his books. He’s quickly sketched as a prodigy and man above the world too young for sin and surrounded by god. This is one of many points in contrast and comparison with Rossellini’s portrayal of Rene Descartes. In fact this set up could easily be a mirror of that film where Rossellini was struggling with his need for empathy. No struggle is necessary here for this is a love story. The lovers are Rossellini and Francis of Assisi for you see Pascal is the final variant of Rossellini’s favorite archetype. Over the course of the film Pascal will leave his ivory tower and attempt to bring goodness, in the form of scientific discovery, to the people even at the cost of his own life.

A sort of flippant tone aside this has less presentational connection to the actual biography and more with Europa ‘51. The difference though is that there Bergman was the star played by THE star whereas here Pascal is another face in the crowd. This is best evidenced with Rossellini’s most radical departure from his past: the camera work. During this period he largely used a remote controlled crane for the camera which allowed him great flexibility of examination without the perceived egotism of zooms. Rarely does he perform a closeup, I believe the first in that of the witch’s confession which is in many ways the leading performance here, instead sliding to and fro emphasizing the people in relation to space. He hardly cuts and the result is like a less cluttered Tati or perhaps more intentionally Bosch.

Silently Pascal watched this woman who serves as a warning and a sign to him. Be a public dreamer and be killed a public dreamer. Only in the establishment of this experience can we be afforded insight into exactly what Pascal is doing because only then does Rossellini trust the audience with his secret that he loves this young man for what he will do in light of what we know.

What is perhaps most interesting to me, and this is shared with Cartesius, is how the expression of love is never with philosophy. I’d almost credit Rossellini with a trepidation on the level of Hasdai Crescas given this, but his previous films abounded with such philosophizing. Instead I take this as part of his more cosmic approach as individual maxims don’t convey the full approach of these individuals and instead a communal overview gives a better sense of that not to mention how such didactic noise doesn’t fit well in a narrative (though it makes me wonder what Rossellini thought of Straub and would have of Greenaway). Instead the films are passionate in detail for different machines and mathematical details that could arrest the era. One of the more exciting moments early on before Pascal takes his mantle of lead is a small explanation of a primitive calculator.

However reluctantly Pascal must lead and does following an illness which he Carrie’s for the rest of the film. Rossellini admires such drove and perseverance. Perhaps he can’t even imagine success without disadvantage. Jesus becomes some impossible model and instead the broken soul making good in Assisi lives. I bring up theological concerns just as Pascal seems to, but I don’t think the struggle to prove a vacuum as the main plot is mere happenstance. Rather I think for Rossellini it does make a very important theological point. The invisibility of god leads to as the invisibility of the vacuum so that a person cannot “decide what is of and is not of god” such as the witch from earlier. Rossellini loves science, but not as advancement. Rather it functions as revelation. This speech is a beautiful thesis reminding me of Maimonides levels of wisdom/ prophecy. This valuable fulcrum ends in a false closeup which is still part of the main shot and leads into one of my favorite scenes of all time in which a diseased Pascal and crew attempt to illustrate with humor proofs of atmospheric pressure which is exacting in its mentioning of scientific peoples and their ideas that is as exhausting as Godard’s for philosophy.

Yet, just as the film seems to have chosen an avenue of explicit expression it adds a crinkle as the effect of human drama rears its head, primarily with the decision to go nun, and these ideas that have been swirling around and will continue to do so must also face proofs of reality sake as the science must cater to true axioms. This choice for drama seems a little ironic to me as Pascal’s journey has been on escaping seclusion and he violently now must confront ideology of returning to the walls. How exactly Pascal deals with this confrontation is the source of Rossellini’s great love.

For now I intend to end on the scene in which Descartes comes forward. As far as I know this is the only time when one lead figure appears in the film if another for Rossellini. The setting is a classroom a little over halfway through. Pascal has been puffing himself up to Descartes style iconoclasm. Confronted by the commanding presence of the real deal dryly expressing a sort of contextual socialism close to Pascal, yet different in a hardly palpable way that both endears respect and apprehension. Rossellini is explicit on these points when they then enter into conversation. Again I’m reminded of Crescas where there’s a beauty in the limitations of simplicity and the idea of human intelligence offering ultimate salvation seeming a false worship verging into ignorance of where humans always seem to fail. There will always be a new question.

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Re: Blaise Pascal (Roberto Rossellini, 1972)

#97 Post by swo17 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:13 pm

knives wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:02 pm
an illness which he carries for the rest of the film
And which spreads to the film itself! In addition to feeling authentically austere, I love how the world of the film feels as though it's been infected with some mild gangrenous ailment that will eventually consume its protagonists through unfortunate lack of knowledge. A scientific and medical lack of knowledge that runs alongside the immutable unknowability of God, which is a concept we might forget to ponder in our more enlightened times. This is most deeply felt through the film's score, which sounds like an echo of the dying cries of one of Pascal's similarly troubled progenitors

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Re: Blaise Pascal (Roberto Rossellini, 1972)

#98 Post by knives » Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:46 pm

I was trying to fit in some comments about the score. It sometimes makes me think it’s a horror film. It’s kind of weird how sad the movie is, maybe stressful is more accurate, when I also see it as fundamentally optimistic thanks to Pascal himself.

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Re: Blaise Pascal (Roberto Rossellini, 1972)

#99 Post by swo17 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 11:50 pm

It's a horror film about being alive

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