The Musicals List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[matrixschmatrix]

I'll still be getting the Scorsese, $5 for a Blu is hard to pass up, but I'm not expecting King of Comedy.

Whoa, where are you getting it for $5?

[knives]

Yesterday on amazon, not today though.

[Grand Wazoo]

Am I the only one with an immeasurable love for 1980's The Apple? It's set in the distant future of 1994, contains songs about the joys of being on speed, and features truly heinous choreography from Nigel Lythgoe of So You Think You Can Dance fame. This is a film that I thought I may enjoy cynically and ironically, if at all, but became something I truly love due to the sheer naivete of all parties involved mixed with the firm dedication given to the silliest of set-pieces.

[domino harvey]

I'm embarrassed by how much I enjoyed that clip. To think here I was being pessimistic about this list.

Jesus, I've only said it was so good that it makes the top ten on both my western and musical list! And there are at least two better numbers in the film, "The Windy City" (one of my absolute desert island numbers) and "I Can Do Without You"

And how anyone could mention Good News without talking about arguably the best showstopper in all of the genre, "Pass the Peace Pipe," is beyond me

[zedz]

I think its because, other than the "Trolley Song", all the numbers are so grounded in the reality (albeit, a highly romanticized version of reality) of rituals and celebration that they never feel like "musical numbers", that is, they never feel like a break from the conventional dramatic narrative that musical numbers usually do.

I'm not trying to argue its not a musical, its simply a film that I never ever think of as one until I'm actually sitting down watching it, where I always have an "aha!" moment

I understand what you mean about the film. For me, that naturalness is a great part of the film's charm. It seems like the most logical thing in the world for Judy to go out into the snow and sing "Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas" to herself.

In some ways, its a more classical version of what Terrence Davies does in Distant Voices, Still Lives. Now, is that a musical?

It's on my short list, though it is a rather radical stretch and I haven't made a final in / out decision on it. Like Pennies from Heaven, it seems to me like a very sophisticated commentary on the musical and on the role of popular song in the lives of everyday people.

And I'll throw this out there for discussion, since I'm sure we'll be dancing around the topic over the coming months anyway: Is anybody interested in voting on the "Best Musical Number" at the same time? I'd suggest a micro-list of, say, five choices. This would allow us to spread the love to astonishing numbers that come out of nowhere in otherwise mediocre films or appear in non-musicals.

[zedz]

Following the sub-thread of making a case for what all one considers to be a musical:
Intuitively (to me), anything where a sufficiently large amount of the film's focus is musical *performance* (as distinct from bio-pics about musicians, which typically do not focus much at all on the performance) is inherently a "musical film". That is the definition that makes sense to me. It seems to me that separating out "operatic tradition" vs "American musical theater" vs "ballet" is a matter of separating sub-genres of "musical films" (granted some of them are much larger than others). To me, it doesn't matter whether that musical performance is singing or dancing or even instrumental (though that is sufficiently rare that I'm having trouble coming with a good example right now), they would be "musical films".

I think the semantics here are problematic, since "a musical film" (e.g. documentary on the construction of a piano, Fischinger abstraction, fully scored Hollywood melodrama) is not the same thing as "a musical", which is a recognised, if disputable, genre. It's like defining "a western" as any film in which the action takes place to the west of some other place, or an action movie as a film in which somebody or something moves (e.g. La Jetee!).

[domino harvey]

And I'll throw this out there for discussion, since I'm sure we'll be dancing around the topic over the coming months anyway: Is anybody interested in voting on the "Best Musical Number" at the same time? I'd suggest a micro-list of, say, five choices. This would allow us to spread the love to astonishing numbers that come out of nowhere in otherwise mediocre films or appear in non-musicals.

I'm for this, especially since I could vote for the stellar "Stereophonic Sound" from the otherwise mediocre Silk Stockings (which probably would have charted for me solely for this bit), but I would like to chastise others, including myself, for linking to YouTube excerpts from musicals. Can we all agree its better to experience these moments within the film proper-- it just feels like cheating, like saying that the musical is a genre that's fine to sample without indulging in-whole.

[Matt]

A sub-list of numbers would be interesting, but I'm not going to let it preclude me from putting a film on my main list just because I only really like one number in it.

And nertz to not linking to clips. Good clips can entice people into watching a whole film. Those who don't want to view them out of context can just restrain themselves from clicking.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

In some ways, its a more classical version of what Terrence Davies does in Distant Voices, Still Lives. Now, is that a musical?

It's on my short list, though it is a rather radical stretch and I haven't made a final in / out decision on it. Like Pennies from Heaven, it seems to me like a very sophisticated commentary on the musical and on the role of popular song in the lives of everyday people.

I think you're perfectly right to mention the commentary issue regarding the musical per se, a form that Davies is infatuated with. However Davies' intention to foreground and structure the songs as narrative devices to comment upon the action as recitative, both pragmatically and ironically, instead of relegating them to being just a splash of local colour, bats it into the musicals court for me.
The whole film is saturated in music (over 50% of the screen time) and moreover is choreographed like a musical. Davies tracks into his own memories and jibs and booms with his emotions.
Perhaps it is just that, that it is too personal, that mitigates against its inclusion. In fact one of the downsides of his elegy to Liverpool, Of Time and the City is that it is Distant dressed in documentary garb and feels like a bit of a retread.
DVSL is indeed an odd creature like the coelacanth perhaps, but one of the joys of these lists is what gets dredged up out of those deep and murky waters.

[knives]

I'm assuming this is the way to go on the Davies.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

And nertz to not linking to clips. Good clips can entice people into watching a whole film. Those who don't want to view them out of context can just restrain themselves from clicking.

I'll hitch my wagon to that sentiment. And to prove the point here's something dedicated to Dom and Nothing.

I'm assuming this is the way to go on the Davies.

Way to go bro

[knives]

As a fish out of water I definitely appreciate the clips because almost by nature many of these musicals sound horrible on principal, so just seeing that they have at least addictive tunes will make me look them out with optimism.

[tarpilot]

MY SISTER EILEEN Richard Quine, 1955
Brings to mind Tashlin’s masterpiece Artists and Models from the same year in several ways: dedicated, committed companionship (in this case, sisterhood) thrust across a kind-of pop-art battlefield that pits the mechanics of the business-of-creativity squarely against a yearning for expression (and livelihood), the mediums in this case the romance stories of Betty Garrett’s aspiring novelist and the stage dreams of the titular Eileen, played with an endearing naivete by Janet Leigh, every bit as irresistibly adorable in a football helmet as Shirley Maclaine is in her bat-lady get-up. Both films end in an extravagant number that seemingly comes out of nowhere, Eileen’s less radically designed than Artists (I’m thinking of the wedding garb transition in particular), but enormously satisfying in a way that I think can be distilled down to the look of blissful contentment on Eileen’s face as she spies on her sister’s reunion with Mr. Baker, one of those punctuating moments that elevates a good film into something remarkable and lasting. I never really considered Artists and Models a musical, but I guess it is. It’s definitely top ten, and now My Sister Eileen is, too. I also love spotting Richard Deacon in anything because I seriously harbour a theory that he is immortal and currently living under the assumed alias of Stephen Tobolowsky.

KISS ME KATE George Sidney, 1953
No less wooed by this. The inclusionary nature of the show is its greatest strength. “Why Can’t You Behave?” is a stunner. Wynn and Whitmore’s loveable gangsters are actually loveable. “What a pro-feel.”

[domino harvey]

I've been preaching the virtues of My Sister Eileen so long on this forum that it does my heart proud to finally see it getting somewhere! Glad you dug both films, and I'm with you: Technically Hollywood or Bust is the better Tashlin Martin and Lewis film, but Artists and Models is the better musical-- both are on my list back to back, though, haha

I am not going to be the hardline asshole on the clip thing, so we can forget it. It does bug me, but not enough for it to be a big deal.

[tarpilot]

I should probably re-watch Hollywood or Bust, as it currently sits 7th out of 8 on my Tashlin-Lewis list (right above The Geisha Boy). After re-watching Susan Slept Here, I wish I could make the argument for that as a musical...(you'll never catch me re-watching Bachelor Flat, though, yuk)

[domino harvey]

I forgot that Rock a Bye Baby is totally a musical too, that needs a rewatch but I remember liking it and its typical Tashlin barbs against TV. Certainly the birdcage number in Susan Slept Here is commentary on the gaudiness of Freed-style musicals (though it seems to predict the outlandish budgetary disasters of Fox musicals to come, really), but yeah, it's not really a musical in whole.

[colinr0380]

KISS ME KATE George Sidney, 1953
No less wooed by this. The inclusionary nature of the show is its greatest strength. “Why Can’t You Behave?” is a stunner. Wynn and Whitmore’s loveable gangsters are actually loveable. “What a pro-feel.”

That's the 3D adaptation of Taming of the Shrew isn't it, with lots of objects/dance partners being playfully and/or angrily thrown at the camera?

[LQ]

Speaking of Tashlin....would The Girl Can't Help It pass as a musical too, or is it excluded under the "filmed performances are not musicals" edict?

[domino harvey]

Speaking of Tashlin....would The Girl Can't Help It pass as a musical too, or is it excluded under the "filmed performances are not musicals" edict?

Seems like a musical to me. The filmed performances rule is like, a filmed concert or stage show or opera, not intermittent musical performances interspersed within the narrative.

[domino harvey]

KISS ME KATE George Sidney, 1953
No less wooed by this. The inclusionary nature of the show is its greatest strength. “Why Can’t You Behave?” is a stunner. Wynn and Whitmore’s loveable gangsters are actually loveable. “What a pro-feel.”

That's the 3D adaptation of Taming of the Shrew isn't it, with lots of objects/dance partners being playfully and/or angrily thrown at the camera?

Of course. I'm way, way more tolerant of Kathryn Grayson than most (I in fact am quite fond of her and suspect I'll be the only one charting something like It Happened in Brooklyn, for instance), but this is almost surely her one film that even her most vocal detractors can agree on.

[LQ]

Speaking of Tashlin....would The Girl Can't Help It pass as a musical too, or is it excluded under the "filmed performances are not musicals" edict?

Seems like a musical to me. The filmed performances rule is like, a filmed concert or stage show or opera, not intermittent musical performances interspersed within the narrative.

Gotcha. I can't wait to explore more Tashlin...and Quine... films for this project. My Sister Eileen is on its way to me now.

[tarpilot]

I forgot that Rock a Bye Baby is totally a musical too, that needs a rewatch but I remember liking it and its typical Tashlin barbs against TV.

I'm mainly with it for "Why Can't He Care For Me" which is pretty much the wonderfullest

[knives]

On the topic of Tashlin, I tried ordering the UK set months ago, but it didn't come and now seems OOP. What's the best route to getting those films now?

[domino harvey]

I picked up an extra sealed copy of the OOP R1 Legendary Jerry collection last summer that I've been sitting on. It doesn't have Rock a Bye Baby or the Geisha Boy (I ended up importing the Australian discs, but there might be cheaper options out there-- they're both essential titles, though) but has all the others in the UK set plus an additional film. I'd sell it to you or someone else on this board who'd give it a good home for its list price (a considerable deal based on what its going for).

[swo17]

It's certainly not a traditional musical, but Roy Andersson's You, the Living feels a lot like a musical to me. There is some, but not a lot, of people actually breaking reality and singing, but really the whole film feels like a funeral dirge backing the drudgery of these people's lives.