The Musicals List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[knives]

I don't see why most of the Disney movies wouldn't count, but as Domino interestingly laid out Fantasia and it's sequel belong to a mostly dead genre called the revue. It's rather fascinating and I encourage you to read up on the posts he linked to.

[Gregory]

Bollywood aside, the potentially dangerous netherworld that I'm wondering if people will really explore is Warner Archive musicals. I'd be glad to watch Holiday in Mexico and Give a Girl a Break and report on them, if anyone would be interested (I would bet that several here have already seen the latter, though). I've seen Rosalie and thought it was interminably dull.

[knives]

You're a braver man than I. Only when I get comically enthusiastic feedback am I going to take a risk for this list let alone the WA films. Good luck and don't kill yourself.

[domino harvey]

Bollywood aside, the potentially dangerous netherworld that I'm wondering if people will really explore is Warner Archive musicals. I'd be glad to watch Holiday in Mexico and Give a Girl a Break and report on them, if anyone would be interested (I would bet that several here have already seen the latter, though). I've seen Rosalie and thought it was interminably dull.

I bought a ton of musicals in the last WA sale, so good news for those curious, as I'll be sure to weigh in. Small Town Girl for one is essential

[Matt]

It's been a long time since I've participated in a list, but I'm very excited about this one (at least until someone starts sucking all the fun out of it). As I'm under the impression that no one actually does "swapsies" anymore, I'd like to offer...

For Your Consideration: Two Weeks With Love, a 1950 MGM musical with Jane Powell and Debbie Reynolds. It's a very sweet musical in the "old-timey" vein of Meet Me in St. Louis or Summer Holiday. It has Debbie Reynolds and Carleton Carpenter's famous "Aba Daba Honeymoon" number. Available from Warner Bros. in the "Classic Musicals from the Dream Factory, Vol. 3" set on a two-fer with Nancy Goes to Rio.

[colinr0380]

I know that the very best musicals should manage to combine the two seamlessly but I am curious what everyone's opinion is on the question of whether songs really need to be fully intergrated into the narrative for the film to be considered successful? Can you put up with painfully contrived or cliched or wooden interstitial scenes if the musical numbers are really stunning? Or vice versa - what if the film is full of lacklustre musical numbers but the non-singing and dancing scenes are so good that we might wish for the film not to have to grind to a halt every few minutes for another terrible number?

There are probably wonderful moments in many films but musicals seem to emphasise and elevate certain moments or sequences above others, even out of the context of the narrative itself, to an even larger degree.

(EDIT: I think I may have just sucked all the fun out of it... )

[Matt]

Related to that question: The Flashdance/Footloose conundrum. I understand the "vote for it" principle, but are we considering films in which characters dance but do not sing in several discrete, choreographed musical numbers eligible?

Can you put up with painfully contrived or cliched or wooden interstitial scenes if the musical numbers are really stunning?

Case in point: Lovely to Look at is fairly dreadful in sum, but there is one stunning Marge and Gower Champion dance number in it, and it will probably end up somewhere on my list just because of that scene.

[matrixschmatrix]

I'm not sure if this is a meaningless distinction, but to me a movie where everything works but the musical numbers might still be a great movie, but I wouldn't think of it as a great musical. Likewise, if a movie flags everywhere but the numbers, it would be unlikely to make say a decades list, but it could still fit my idea of a great musical.

[domino harvey]

Related to that question: The Flashdance/Footloose conundrum. I understand the "vote for it" principle, but are we considering films in which characters dance but do not sing in several discrete, choreographed musical numbers eligible?

Depends on who's going to take it to the logical extreme and vote for They Shoot Horses, Don't They?

[Matt]

Don't shoot me because I haven't seen it, but is the dancing choreographed in that film?

Anyway, just for informational purposes, I want to make everyone aware of the "nominated" list of 180 musicals from that AFI "One Hundred Years of Musicals" thing. It might act as a good aide-memoire: PDF

Also, here is Rick Altman's list of musicals from the appendix of his The American Film Musical book, which might also help. It's not meant to be a comprehensive list.

[Michael Kerpan]

People may want to check out to Japanese contenders -- one classic (Makino's Singing Lovebirds/Oshidori utagassen, 1939) and one fairly recent (Suzuki's Princess Raccoon/Operetta tanuki goten, 2005).

[domino harvey]

Also, here is Rick Altman's list of musicals from the appendix of his The American Film Musical book, which might also help. It's not meant to be a comprehensive list.

Nice, I think it was you who recommended me the Altman book a couple years ago, and he's been a recent topic of discussion in the main List Project thread, so this can only help (though of course the truly curious should just buy the damn thing-- I bet it's very affordable used on Amazon or Half)

[knives]

I just did a check and right now I haven't even seen enough features to qualify, 44 all told. Still there are a couple of standouts I want to mention before things get really geared (even if in all likelihood half of them aren't on my final list).

South Park has already been mentioned and while it's not as good as that piece of Genius their first feature Cannibal: The Musical is an excellent romp that's perfectly silly with some amazing music punctuated throughout. Admittedly the sense of comedy isn't for everybody (it really did find the perfect home with Troma), but I doubt anyone would disagree that the music is simply classic.

Hallelujah! is easily my favorite Vidor film and to the best of my knowledge odd in it's didactic as musical nature. Speaking of weird music integration while I assume they're on everyone's short list the '50s A Star is Born and Cabaret are perfect. Less perfect, but still above average Head is probably the most out there I'll be going for this list as far as what is or isn't a musical.

The two John Waters musicals, Cry-Baby and Hairspray, will probably make my list even after I've (hopefully) tripled what I've got. They're just perfect in that way that only waters can accomplish. Speaking of, more or less, comedy musicals I really love The Blues Brothers and feel that it's practically perfect if just to see all of these old school musicians doing great work.

[Gregory]

I wouldn't want to submit a list unless I'd seen (and, more to the point, remembered sufficiently) at least 200-300. This would probably require huge amounts of digging beyond what's been released commercially on pressed DVDs, so I almost surely will sit this out. I'm just not committed enough to the genre, I guess. The number of 50 features is probably a significantly higher number relative to musical features made than a list of 50 westerns voted for was to the total number of westerns made. I would estimate the number of westerns from the classic era at over 10,000; musicals were surely far more expensive and elaborate to produce in comparison.

[Wu.Qinghua]

Thanks for those two lists, Matt. I've never been into musicals, but I guess, I'll try again to compile a list, now that I've realized that I could vote for movies like 'Wild Style' or 'Prison Song' as well as for lots of Asian movies like 'Mambo Girl', Dilwale Dulhania le Jayenge' or Manoj Kumar's nationalist 'East and West / Purab aur Pachhim' , which comes with my highest recommendations. Here's an extract: Twinkle twinkle little star. Whoopee ... That's a must-see in my eyes.

[Matt]

The two John Waters musicals, Cry-Baby and Hairspray, will probably make my list even after I've (hopefully) tripled what I've got.

Hairspray (the Waters original - I assume no one will be voting for the Adam Shankman adaptation of the Broadway show) is another film that falls in my area of concern expressed above. No one in it actually sings a musical number (except Toussaint McCall and, if you stretch, Pia Zadora), and the lyrics of the songs are not integral to the narrative, but there are choreographed dances and you'd be hard pressed not to call it a musical. So, I guess if enough people think it's a musical for the purposes of this list, it is one?

[zedz]

Well, this should be fun. My working definition of a musical will be a narrative feature film in which several songs (I'm figuring four, mimumum) are performed onscreen by major characters. Until I find something that doesn't work with that definition! I'd say that if a film meets those criteria, it's very hard for it to not be a musical. I think dancing / non-dancing is a red herring, but non-singing is a no-no, and if everything is sung, it's an opera, not a musical (which rules out The Umbrellas of Cherbourg and Tommy and Moses und Aron, which really is an opera).

However, I'm already going to be making a kind-of exception (the well-rehearsed mini-series exception) for Pennies from Heaven, which is not only a devastating drama but a really imaginative and penetrating deconstriction of the musical, and the role of popular song in everyday life in general. I encourage everybody else to see the original as well - not the extremely compromised American remake.

As for animation, I don't see how certain films can be logically excluded, and a number of classic Disney films are absolutely structured and written as musicals. I mean, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is the very definition of a "book musical" - and years before Oklahoma!, no less. This does bump up against another interesting point that's been raised. I consider Pinocchio a musical and a great film, but the musical numbers are probably my least favourite part of the film, and it's the non-musical elements that make it a masterpiece, in my opinion. So it will probably end up making my list, but most likely further down than a number of films I think aren't as good (but are better musicals).

And domino: I'm surprised that Les Demoiselles de Rochefort wasn't in your top ten, but I guess this genre is the very definition of an embarrassment of riches.

[swo17]

People may want to check out to Japanese contenders -- one classic (Makino's Singing Lovebirds/Oshidori utagassen, 1939) and one fairly recent (Suzuki's Princess Raccoon/Operetta tanuki goten, 2005).

Singing Lovebirds (also eligible for the ongoing '30s project) also just recently became available with English subtitles if you know where to look.

[matrixschmatrix]

Has anyone seen the 1930 Good News? The clip that was in that primer I linked earlier looked incredible, but it's slightly pricey and I don't want to get burned by a movie that's one good number and a bunch of filler.

[Matt]

Under the Roofs of Paris, yea or nae?

Hard to say, I think. It's really just the one song repeated over and over. Same goes for À Nous la Liberté.

Glad to see so much love for Good News (the 1947 version). It's really a gem.

[zedz]

Oh yeah, Bollywood. I've seen a decent few leading recent examples (thanks to a friend who was absolutely addicted) and while there's plenty of great music and memorable individual numbers (that train sequence from Dil Se that colin mentioned, for example, though like a lot of the numbers, it seems more like a music video than a great musical number) in most cases the connective tissue leaves a lot to be desired: glossy, bland, formulaic. I'd be very happy to take suggestions, but I really want to be knocked out, not just mildly impressed and off looking for snacks between the hits.

And knives - I personally rule Head out on the grounds that only two of the numbers are sung onscreen ('Circle Sky' and 'Daddy's Song', if I recall correctly). The rest are 'music videos', which is a slippery slope which could end up with Goodfellas being classed as a musical, if you add up the number of sequences cut to popular songs.

[knives]

The two John Waters musicals, Cry-Baby and Hairspray, will probably make my list even after I've (hopefully) tripled what I've got.

Hairspray (the Waters original - I assume no one will be voting for the Adam Shankman adaptation of the Broadway show) is another film that falls in my area of concern expressed above. No one in it actually sings a musical number (except Toussaint McCall and, if you stretch, Pia Zadora), and the lyrics of the songs are not integral to the narrative, but there are choreographed dances and you'd be hard pressed not to call it a musical. So, I guess if enough people think it's a musical for the purposes of this list, it is one?

I'm skirting the edge like you, but I figure if Cukor's A Star is Born counts this is close enough.

Under the Roofs of Paris, yea or nae?

Hard to say, I think. It's really just the one song repeated over and over. Same goes for À Nous la Liberté.

For that reason I might be throwing out A Treatise on Japanese Bawdy Songs. It's very much a musical, but like you said it's only the one song repeated.

Also Zedz-I'll only be including Head if I can't come up with enough clear examples. I want to go as traditionalist as possible. Though I will be emphasizing the hell out of The Wayward Cloud.

[Matt]

I'm skirting the edge like you, but I figure if Cukor's A Star is Born counts this is close enough.

The Cukor has plenty of diegetic singing. The whole "Born in a Trunk" sequence is practically a musical in itself. I don't think there's any question that this film qualifies.

I think one of the rules that I will be operating under is that the music has to be in a popular idiom. That way, I don't have to convince myself that Tales of Hoffmann belongs on my list. That probably also rules out plenty of Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy films, but that's fine by me.

[knives]

With the exception of that sequence I actually have a hard time being convinced that A Star is Born is a musical, though I will be voting for it.

[domino harvey]

With the exception of that sequence I actually have a hard time being convinced that A Star is Born is a musical, though I will be voting for it.

Not to be a broken record, but Altman has some cogent points to make (even though it won't be on my list for taste reasons, not musical debate-ability)