Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

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movielocke
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#226 Post by movielocke » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:00 pm

all those posts and Fedora didn't even rate a vote!

thanks for compiling, nice list even if Some Like it Hot is too low.

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HinkyDinkyTruesmith
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#227 Post by HinkyDinkyTruesmith » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:02 pm

Thanks, domino, for the work.
1. The Apartment
2. Love in the Afternoon
3. Sabrina
4. Midnight
5. Ace in the Hole
6. A Foreign Affair
7. Bluebeard's Eighth Wife
8. Witness for the Prosecution
9. Hold Back the Dawn
10. Irma la Douce
I actually prefer Sabrina, I think, over Love in the Afternoon, but knowing how poorly it would do, I bumped it to second––although I didn't expect to be the only one voting for it at all!

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Mr Sausage
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Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#228 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:03 pm

The ten best Wilder films I’ve ever seen. Also, the ten Wilder films I’ve seen.

1. Ace in the Hole
2. Double Indemnity
3. Sunset Boulevard
4. The Lost Weekend
5. Ball of Fire
6. The Apartment
7. Irma la Douce
8. Stalag 17
9. Sabrina
10. Some Like It Hot

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senseabove
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:07 am

Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#229 Post by senseabove » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:16 pm

movielocke wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:00 pm
all those posts and Fedora didn't even rate a vote!
It was one of many fighting for a contentious 10th place on my list:
1. Sunset Boulevard
2. The Apartment
3. Midnight
4. Avanti!
5. Hold Back the Dawn
6. Arise, My Love
7. The Major and the Minor
8. One, Two, Three
9. Double Indemnity
10. Five Graves to Cairo

I'm happy to see Midnight made the top 10 and that Arise, My Love wasn't orphaned

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Toland's Mitchell
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#230 Post by Toland's Mitchell » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:29 pm

Fedora was also close to making my Top 10, but didn't consider it quite strong enough.

1. Sunset Boulevard
2. Double Indemnity
3. The Apartment
4. Ace in the Hole
5. Witness for the Prosecution
6. Some Like it Hot
7. The Fortune Cookie
8. One, Two, Three
9. Stalag 17
10. Sabrina

I had the same Top 4 as the final list. To me, they are his four masterpieces; they can be in any order depending on my mood. There's a bit of drop-off from there, although I enjoy nearly all his work to some degree. I can only think of three stinkers off the top of my head.

The one first-time watch I was able catch during this survey was A Foreign Affair, which I was underwhelmed by. It was not very well-scripted, was overly long, and struggled to toe the line between light comedy and cynical drama. Consequently, most jokes fell flat.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#231 Post by hearthesilence » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:14 pm

This thread nearly passed me by, and I wasn't sure if I had enough for a list - as much as I enjoy Wilder's films, he really hasn't grown on me since I dived into most of his work in high school. The two exceptions remain Ace in the Hole and his Sherlock Holmes, both of which weren't widely available when I first saw them. I was lucky enough to catch the former in 35mm without knowing a thing about it, long before Criterion licensed it, and it immediately felt like his best work, one that played up to all of his familiar strengths. I still think it's a great film, but the cynicism can feel a little broad and cheap. In fact, the poll topper, The Apartment, placed at the bottom of my list, and I might've left it off altogether except that I needed ten films to complete a ballot. It's a very uneven film to me, and while there is some brilliant bits of writing (like the use of a broken compact mirror), the cynicism and the sentimental bits can feel pretty shallow and remain very off-putting to me.

Sherlock Holmes was my top pick, and going by some of the posts here, I had a feeling that it wouldn't place well overall - in fact, it placed worse than expected. But in memory, it's left the biggest impression on me, the first one that's genuinely moved me, and every time I've seen it, I've grown to appreciate it more. A perfect example of a film maudit, some people - Wilder included - lament the cuts that were made to it, and the exemplary reissue from Masters of Cinema does a commendable job of detailing what was lost. But in this case, I rarely give the "restoration" (or at least the possibility of one) much thought. Many of the criticisms are tied to the plot, and it is a plot-driven film (arguably moreso than most since it is a detective film), but the minute details of the plot never interested me. More than any of his other films, the pathos feels very much earned, and there's a genuine feeling of humanity here that carries a lot more weight than his most celebrated films. (To a lesser extent, I could say the same about his next film, Avanti!, for what it has to say about Armbruster, Sr. and what his son learns from it. The film does have its problems, but it has greatness in it as well.)
Last edited by hearthesilence on Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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the preacher
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#232 Post by the preacher » Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:44 am

hearthesilence wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:14 pm
Sherlock Holmes was my top pick, and going by some of the posts here, I had a feeling that it wouldn't place well overall - in fact, it placed worst than expected. But in memory, it's left the biggest impression on me, the first one that's genuinely moved me, and every time I've seen it, I've grown to appreciate it more. A perfect example of a film maudit, some people - Wilder included - lament the cuts that were made to it, and the exemplary reissue from Masters of Cinema does a commendable job of detailing what was lost. But in this case, I rarely give the "restoration" (or at least the possibility of one) much thought. Many of the criticisms are tied to the plot, and it is a plot-driven film (arguably moreso than most since it is a detective film), but the minute details of the plot never interested me. More than any of his other films, the pathos feels very much earned, and there's a genuine feeling of humanity here that carries a lot more weight than his most celebrated films. (To a lesser extent, I could say the same about his next film, Avanti!, for what it has to say about Armbruster, Sr. and what his son learns from it. The film does have its problems, but it has greatness in it as well.)
Sherlock Holmes would have been my #1 if I had voted. The most atypical and romantic Wilder.

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TMDaines
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#233 Post by TMDaines » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:38 am

My top ten was:

#1) The Apartment (1960 - Billy Wilder)
#2) Sunset Boulevard (1950 - Billy Wilder)
#3) Double Indemnity (1944 - Billy Wilder)
#4) Stalag 17 (1953 - Billy Wilder)
#5) Menschen am Sonntag (1930 - Robert Siodmak; Edgar G. Ulmer)
#6) Sabrina (1954 - Billy Wilder)
#7) The Lost Weekend (1945 - Billy Wilder)
#8) Irma la Douce (1963 - Billy Wilder)
#9) Avanti! (1972 - Billy Wilder)
#10) Hold Back the Dawn (1941 - Mitchell Leisen)

Some Like It Hot and Witness for the Prosecution met the quality threshold, but just fell short of making the top ten. I wish I had had time to delve into Wilder's German period and view many of the films with his screenwriting credits. Oh well, another project for the future.

I wonder if Die Todesmuehlen would have attracted any votes if people had watched the German version. I only managed to track it down yesterday on Spiegel and have not watched it yet. The American voiceover does the footage no favours, although the film may still feel overly rushed anyway.

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Godot
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#234 Post by Godot » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:40 am

I might have been the last submitter, just under the wire (and Domino still responded within minutes! what a late night), but I've been enjoying reading the comments and defenses in the thread. I have a great deal of emotional attachment to the 4 Wilder-directed works in my top 5, having seen them on network TV repeatedly through my teens. My #1 was easy, as it's one of my favorite comedies, and a film my kids have delighted in for longer than they remember. (I distinctly recall my daughter's pride in realizing on a repeat viewing that Tony Curtis was imitating Cary Grant.) I relished the opportunity to slip in a few that Wilder scripted, as I think that's his greatest talent (like Preston Sturges), but although Ball of Fire ranks so highly for me among Wilder's work, it may not even crack the top 10 for the Hawks list. After reading brief notes about it for years in books on Wilder, I finally saw Five Graves thanks to the Madman R4 "Directors Suite" disc, and it's a lot of fun. I struggled to pick my last few, and I recognize that my #9-10 are disliked by some on the board, but they give me a lot of pleasure for their sexually titillating "performances" and in-your-grill (but still acceptable under the production code) foregrounding of hetero male adult fantasy. I think Wilder enjoyed highlighting "acting" and performances, characters trying to fool others or build themselves up by playing a role, but that phoniness always being revealed in the final act (even final moment, as in my #1). That is a common plot device for millennia, of course, but I think Wilder explored it more thematically (who are we really, and who decides that?) rather than just story mechanics.

1. Some Like It Hot
2. The Apartment
3. Ball of Fire
4. Double Indemnity
5. Sunset Blvd.
6. Five Graves to Cairo
7. People on Sunday
8. Midnight
9. The Seven-Year Itch
10. The Major and the Minor

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hearthesilence
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#235 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:12 am

the preacher wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:44 am
Sherlock Holmes would have been my #1 if I had voted. The most atypical and romantic Wilder.
Much more succinct - I completely agree.

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Drucker
Your Future our Drucker
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#236 Post by Drucker » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:42 am

I didn't get the chance to watch Bluebeard's Eighth Wife when we did this list (during the 'early pandemic' era) but it would be very high for me. Just an absolutely knockout film. A friend and I often rank comedy television and note that lots of great shows, as they go on, tend to slow down in pacing and there are just fewer and fewer jokes. This was a great example of a film where almost every line has a joke and they work. The early department store managers going up, up, up to get approval from different bosses was a great example. I also loved Cooper's whole Taming of the Shrew sequence. I found myself frequently laughing out loud, and could see how in Wilder's hands this film may be a bit much but with Lubitsch it's just right.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#237 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:01 am

Without looking back through the thread to check, I think we may be in the minority in thinking the film maintains its rhythm through the back half (though I also prefer the second part of The Lady Eve so I don't necessarily have normative opinions on screwballs). The opening scene may be the most lightning-hot cleverness from Wilder, somehow diluted into Lubtisch's airy delicacy.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#238 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:13 pm

I've been revisiting Wilder's work lately (as well as some stuff I hadn't seen yet), and I'm growing to appreciate him more and more. The stuff I didn't like all that much seems to get worse, but the stuff I found very surprising the first time around feels even more poignant now. Hard to articulate a unifying reason for it, but I'd say those particular films seem to emphasize a side of him that really transcends his cynicism - they have a very deep empathy and compassion for people's personal faults, insecurities and frailties. You can find signs of that in a lot of his films, but I think it comes to complete fruition in his final films (not counting the last, which I haven't seen). Those later films seem more imperfect in terms of style and craft, but in terms of what they have to convey, they feel like they have a lot more weight to them.

If I had to re-do my list, it would probably be:

1. The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes
2. Ninotchka (co-writer only)
3. Fedora
4. Five Graves to Cairo
5. Avanti!
6. Kiss Me, Stupid
7. Some Like It Hot
8. Ace in the Hole
9. Sunset Boulevard
10. Double Indemnity

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Boosmahn
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#239 Post by Boosmahn » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:40 pm

I've seen four of Wilder's films now, and I've noticed a potential recurring theme in them: characters who lose everything but then possibly gain something important in return. This second part only applies to his comedies so far.

In The Apartment,
SpoilerShow
Bud loses his high-paying new job, but starts a relationship with the love of his life.
In The Fortune Cookie,
SpoilerShow
Harry loses the opportunity to make a boatload of money and his wife (again), but starts a healthy friendship with Boom Boom Jackson.
In Sunset Boulevard,
SpoilerShow
Norma has already lost her popular status and ends up losing even more by the end.
In Ace in the Hole,
SpoilerShow
Chuck drops the opportunity to re-enter mainstream journalism and, more importantly, dies. His final line is also telling: "You can have me for nothing."
Any thoughts on this? Does Wilder carry this interest over to his other films?

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reaky
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#240 Post by reaky » Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:59 am

Wilder’s core theme is men prostituting themselves until they at last catch sight of this and claw back some decency. Or as Dr Dreyfuss says in The Apartment, they learn to “be a mensch”. Joe Gillis rather than Norma Desmond is the character who makes this journey in Sunset Blvd.

It’s a failing of Wilder that the women in his films are generally only facilitators of this sentimental education, and not the protagonists.

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schellenbergk
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#241 Post by schellenbergk » Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:51 pm

reaky wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:59 am
It’s a failing of Wilder that the women in his films are generally only facilitators of this sentimental education, and not the protagonists.
Generally I agree. Would the two Marlene Dietrich films be an exception?

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knives
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#242 Post by knives » Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:48 pm

I don’t think so. She’s pretty clearly support in both despite being the most interesting thing about both.

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reaky
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#243 Post by reaky » Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:56 pm

It’s a while since I’ve seen those, but though magnetic, I don’t recall Dietrich as being central to either. Ninotchka, though, that’s an exception, flipped so Melvyn Douglas is the catalyst to Garbo’s epiphany.

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Boosmahn
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Re: Auteur List: Billy Wilder - Discussion and Defenses

#244 Post by Boosmahn » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:06 pm

Interesting! Ace in the Hole quickly became one of my favorite films and I unexpectedly loved The Apartment, so I'll be sure to check out his other work.

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