Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

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knives
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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#276 Post by knives » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:59 pm

I'm not sure how focusing on the the character dynamics changes my statement. That is still a fairly vague thing in the sense that all, sound, movies have speaking and movement through the narrative. I'm a bit confused as to the rest of your paragraph, but if I get it right I do want to say that I cited those technical elements as visible proofs for the film's overall weakness, not the main part of my complaint which remains what I said about the film being overly concerned with a plot that is turgidly represented. Though I think the representation of the Bogart Bacall relationship is another misfire for the film. The representation of character and story here as well I find to be mediocre with tastes of bad.

My point on genre was that you have plenty of crime heroes at the time who are winners and not disillusioned making this a straight forward example of crime cinema. Just look at the ultimate Bogart role of Sam Spade. I don't see how that having Marlowe be a winner makes the film good, interesting, or exceptional (I'm assuming you're arguing that the movie is at least one of those thing). My counter-argument is that this is an exceedingly typical detective movie indistinguishable from the Marlowe genre on the grounds you are putting forth.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#277 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:55 pm

That is helpful clarification, because your statement confused me too, in saying "so much of the film is turgid waiting for plot when ideally the plot should be waiting for the character moments" which is incredibly vague, and then you cited technical issues "that legitimize my complaints" (which were narrative focused..) and then sandwiched that back with your experience reading the book and liking the character. I now understand that you weren't referring to what seemed to be your thesis statement in that full sentence but rather the general merits of the film being bad. I was responding to your first statement, admittedly with another vague statement, since I took yours to mean that you found that the "character moments" to be vapid- and since I found the various character exchanges to be full of fire and wit, I believe we just saw different movies here (I also wonder if you watched the original 1945 version, which is far blander in interpersonal exchanges, not that this would change all that much). What I meant to say is that, aside from most films that in my experience depend on a variety of elements to work (strong technical choices, acting, narrative, etc.) The Big Sleep is one that I unequivocally love while acknowledging your points about its deficits in certain areas, because the exchanges between Bogart and Bacall in the 1946 version, and the forward momentum of narrative intrigue, overwhelm whatever flaws exist elsewhere for me. My initial response was actually intended to be validating to your largest paragraph outlining the technical flaws in the film, and proposing that this film more than other films, in my opinion, completely rides on these few strong areas. It was worth mentioning because it's atypical to give so much credit, and surrender issues with other details, for only a select few details in a film, at least for me it is. Hopefully that is now clear.

As for your example of Bogart as Sam Spade in being a hero who is a winner and not disillusioned in The Maltese Falcon, I already wrote my thoughts on this and vehemently disagree with your reading, so there's that. I wish you would go back and re-read my posts, because I did not cite "having Marlowe be a winner" as a key ingredient to making the film good. Quite the opposite, since I specifically said that I only noticed it on my last watch, having said that this was a childhood favorite many times over in this thread and forum, and that I simply "got a kick out of" this realization. It was an aside, and I thought an interesting Hawksian touch worth mentioning in response to a lot of what I've read from those who don't like to consider this a noir, which I also just said was the reason I made my statement, not the assumptions you're making (also why make assumptions when I just said why I made the passing comment? Including that this was not exceptional. I even used that very word.) - it's interesting to think about only in response to those criticisms of the film on noir grounds, not because it's inherently interesting to the film in making its mechanics work. I'm pretty surprised that mentioning a functional detail I noticed when watching this most recently that "I got a kick out of" suddenly became interpreted as my own thesis for enjoying an old favorite. I'm not trying to convince you, but I mentioned what I interpreted to be Hawks having a hand in subtly presenting his protagonist as more Hawksian than what I usually see. I thought it was interesting, you clearly don't, so that's it. Please understand that this is a small detail that we disagree on and not my whole point, nor was it intended to be more than an 'aside' so the scab probably doesn't need to be picked anymore.

Your counter-argument is aimed at the wrong place, unless directed at my own feelings on the narrative and character exchanges working, which aren't really "grounds I'm putting forth" since I passively mentioned that they work for me without 'backing them up' with anything. I can't, and have zero interest to, convince anyone to appreciate what is in plain sight. There's no undercurrent to examine on why I love this film, you've seen what I have and didn't like what I do, that's all.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#278 Post by Rayon Vert » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:20 pm

Monkey Business (revisit). It seems like me and TW are in parallel universes with this list project. It's only the second time I'm seeing this, unlike something like Male War Bride which I know very well and love, but I ended up liking this just about the same! I actually didn't see any problem with the pacing here, and I found myself laughing out loud throughout. The part that doesn't succeed as well is when it's Ginger's time to regress - the writing isn't quite as funny, and her performance not the equal of Grant's, though she makes up for it at film's end. TW, you specifically said, for instance, how could anyone think the part with the monkey alone in the lab was funny, but that was precisely a scene I found hysterical! I love the premise, the ridiculousness of all of the film, the whole thing just charms me, and really I don't think there's a Hawks comedy that makes me laugh quite as much. I kept thinking to myself Cary and Ginger must have had a great time making this, and that it must have been hard for them to keep a straight face doing something like the painting each other scene. Almost like silent film slapstick that one. And the scene of Cary with the children playing Indians is fantastically outrageous. Don't know what else to say here. I'd love to hear some other opinions, and would definitely recommend this to someone who's skipped it.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#279 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:32 pm

I'm glad you liked it, and I actually think Ginger Rogers' scenes work the best between the two, though that's not a high bar for me! I will relent that it's a film full of conceptually great ideas that just fail for me (eg. the scene with Grant and the children at the end, which on paper, with those players and the man behind the camera, seems impossible not to land, but somehow leaves me numb). McCarthy makes pretty clear that Hawks definitely found it funny though, unlike A Song Is Born, so at least you're more aligned with the artist's tastes!

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#280 Post by Rayon Vert » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:51 pm

I think Wood said some people find the ending over-the-top and less funny for that reason. (I like the way he compares the film to Scarface in terms of a dangerous loss of control that is also exhilirating). My memory was that I found it the first time perhaps in parts more conceptually funny, as you say, than actually the case. For some reason this time it clicked. Maybe I drank the formula...

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#281 Post by domino harvey » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:01 am

If Monkey Business vs A Song is Born is the turf war, I’m glad to be on my side even if we lose

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#282 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:05 am

Rayon Vert wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:51 pm
I think Wood said some people find the ending over-the-top and less funny for that reason. (I like the way he compares the film to Scarface in terms of a dangerous loss of control that is also exhilirating). My memory was that I found it the first time perhaps in parts more conceptually funny, as you say, than actually the case. For some reason this time it clicked. Maybe I drank the formula...
Haha, I will say that after Coburn seems to be asleep for the majority of the film, he comes alive at the end for the baby gag that delivers in spades- just too late. It's a very inspired moment of humor though, and builds off the central concept perfectly.

I enjoyed reading that apparently Coburn actually was asleep on set a fair amount (I actually forget if McCarthy talks about that being in this film or Gentleman Prefer Blondes) and he would snore loudly through scenes filming without his character, forcing Hawks to do multiple takes, but Hawks never became irritated and refused to let anyone disturb Coburn's slumber. A lot of flak can be thrown at Hawks, but he was undeniably a patient and composed filmmaker, who refused to rush the job, and his care shows.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#283 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:09 am

domino harvey wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:01 am
If Monkey Business vs A Song is Born is the turf war, I’m glad to be on my side even if we lose
If we lose, I'll close the iron door on this list

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#284 Post by swo17 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:15 am

I'll likely vote for both of them

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#285 Post by domino harvey » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:18 am

switzerland17

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#286 Post by swo17 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:45 am

There are good people on both sides

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#287 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:02 pm

Rereading Robin Wood on Monkey Business, I find validation in his finding it "Hawks' most consistently funny film" (as well as "the one in which he moves closest to tragedy"). (p. 75)

Rivette was definitely a fan of the film also (the whole article here):
The evidence on the screen is the proof of Howard Hawks's genius: you only have to watch Monkey Business to know that it is a brilliant film. Some people refuse to admit this, however; they refuse to be satisfied by proof. There can't be any other reason why they don't recognize it. (...)

But Hawks is not so much concerned with the subjection of the world to the jaded, glacial vision of the scientific mind as he is with retracing the comic misfortunes of the intelligence. Hawks is not concerned with satire or psychology; societies mean no more to him than sentiments; unlike Capra or McCarey, he is solely preoccupied with the adventure of the intellect. Whether he opposes the old to the new, the sum of the world's knowledge of the past to one of the degraded forms of modern life (Ball of Fire, A Song is Born), or man to beast (Bringing Up Baby), he sticks to the same story -- the intrusion of the inhuman, or the crudest avatar of humanity, into a highly civilized society. In The Thing, the mask is finally off: in the confined space of the universe, some men of science are at grips with a creature worse than inhuman, a creature from another world; and their efforts are directed towards fitting it into the logical framework of human knowledge.

But in Monkey Business the enemy has crept into man himself: the subtle poison of the Fountain of Youth, the temptation of infantilism. This we have long known to be one of the less subtle wiles of the Evil One -- now in the form of a hound, now in the form of a monkey -- when he comes up against a man of rare intelligence. And it is the most unfortunate of illusions which Hawks rather cruelly attacks: the notion of adolescence and childhood are barbarous states from which he are rescued by education. The child is scarcely distinguishable from the savage he imitates in his games: and a most distinguished old man, after he has drunk the precious fluid, takes delight in imitating a chimp. One can find in this a classical conception of man, as a creature whose only path to greatness lies through experience and maturity; at the end of his journey, it is his old age which will be his judge.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#288 Post by domino harvey » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:11 pm

I think some of the effusive studies of rather minor Hawks films really show the limits of the auteur theory in the 60s, which sidelined other Hollywood films doing many of the same things, often better, and building up the idea of the director-author above all in an effort to either legitimize Hollywood popular cinema (America) or as a reflection of limited exposure to the totality of the American studio system's output (post-WWII France)

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#289 Post by senseabove » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:43 pm

Well, guess I'll have to prioritize those so I can see who my friends and enemies are this round. To quote RV in the meantime...

Hatari!

I'm not quite as enthusiastic as some, but this still gets an unwavering thumbs up from me. It successfully folds the aloof wink of 60s comedy into Hawks's rhythm—compared to Man's Favorite Sport's trying too hard too often and only occasionally succeeding at being au courant—and while I wouldn't exactly call the characters vivid, their relationships are strong enough, even with half of them somehow getting short shrift in a 157-minute movie, and there's enough happening in the group dynamic that I found them all interesting. In the best "long movie" way, when it did rotate around to a different set of characters, I was always happy to see them back in the spotlight and to spend more time with them. What little "plot" there is is, if anything, a distraction from what I enjoy about it. RV's point that the harmony is what makes this one special is spot on, so I could've done without pm everything after the last animal, for example, because that attempt at narrative tension just felt unnecessary, leftover from a script that had otherwise been thrown out long ago, while the scene that made me fall for the movie was the first one between Dallas and Pocket, when Dallas is petting Sonja and Pocket comes outside, because it was such a simple presentation of two people discovering how unexpectedly comfortable they are with each other. These two folks shouldn't get along that well, but they do, and it rings true enough, and it's a case in point of how what works in the movie is what's unforced about it.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#290 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:07 pm

Thanks for adding a little more joy and harmony to my heart...

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#291 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:09 pm

knives wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:41 pm
One interesting narrative element to me is Brennan's character who seems like a precursor to the German doctor in Greene's Our Man in Havana what with both being drunken friends.
Seeing Brennan again in this movie, and that adding to my having the week or so previous recognized him (with difficulty) in Barbary Coast, which in turn made me think over how long a stretch he worked with Hawks (with the much later Rio Bravo of course coming to mind) - I was prompted to add up the number of Hawks films he's in. When you think of Hawks films and the actor or actress who's been in the most, you would be naturally inclined to think of Grant or Wayne, but actually Brennan has got them beat with 6. I don't think there's someone else who's been in more.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#292 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:03 pm

And oddly enough Hawks was reportedly most brutal to Brennan on the set of Rio Bravo, after quite a long and strong working relationship. Though he wanted him to come back for another (I think Ed Dorado) so, as typical for Hawks, any animosity didn't turn into finite resentment.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#293 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:16 pm

4 of the Cary Grant films are in my top 10, and the fifth could easily have made the 15, so he's the quintessential Hawksian actor for me. (But then, at this point anyway, I've likely got 4 Waynes in my top 15-list as well...)

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#294 Post by senseabove » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:02 am

Watched Monkey Business and A Song is Born this weekend, and I'm joining swo in the middle. I think they're both about equally enjoyable and flawed, in different ways. MB has some hilarious highs, notably Grant's and Rogers' physical comedy, but a lot of the plot-moving comedy, like the meltdown at the hotel or the baby mixup, edges into the grating side of screwball for me—while ASiB has a more consistently enjoyably even keel, but never quite takes off... I don't think either will make my 10, but as it stands now they'd probably make my 15, right next to each other.

A Song is Born is definitely better than Ball of Fire though.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#295 Post by knives » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:13 pm

Red River, the last rewatch I'm going to be able to fit in before the deadline, goes from a good western indebted to Ford into a great beast all of its own making when the bit of Brennan comedy becomes very serious and Wayne shows his full acting potential in a display of disturbingly rational cruelty. It not only communicates everything about where the characters are headed, but helps to communicate what makes this a different western. It's, as far as I know, the first western really engaged with the post war environment. A reality which is done with the New Deal and its progressive form of optimism searching instead for a more simple comfort that can arrive today. You can really see here why what '50s suburbia would be soon selling would be attractive at least for someone of Hawks' and Chase's temperament.

This strange politics for a war never truly seen by the film's makers is evidenced through that great man himself: John Wayne. Hawks clearly admires Dunson even as the script needs him to become the evil of capitalist impulses, in the 19th century sense of the term, which leads to a tension in the film that a more loving portrait or one that forces greater identification with Clift wouldn't accomplish. The film really is about working out admiration for great men according to the American dream even when the means to those ends probably don't deserve such admiration. Such a theme is perhaps as important as ever to engage with given the realization for many recently of how stained with complex darkness even the greatest of men are.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#296 Post by domino harvey » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:09 pm

Heads up on the deadline: my MacBook Pro crashed and is dead and a new laptop won’t be in hand until possibly early August given Apple delays. So there will be a delay/extension til my computer arrives

Also, I hope no one ever audits old lists, because I didn’t back any of that up from my computer!

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#297 Post by senseabove » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:40 am

El Dorado This is mildly fascinating from an auterist-trying-to-adapt angle, what with 2/3 of it being a virtual remake, and it's perfectly enjoyable, but it just feels like Hawks on autopilot most of the time, and when he's not, he's trying to finagle some incongruous 60s tics in, like the two or thee quick-zooms in the first half or the plain bizarre choice to soundtrack the alley stalking scene with surfy cool jazz. Aside from Mitchum giving a much more authentic begrudging sobriety, there's nothing here that I don't think Rio Bravo doesn't do noticeably better.


I was going to watch The Dawn Patrol tonight, but the source mentioned upthread, which opens with "Flight Commander" credits, looks like a 16mm print dug out of someone's flooded and caved-in basement, so I wanted to ask—is the WB Archive DVD any better? Or is that just how this film looks?

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#298 Post by TMDaines » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:04 am

domino harvey wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:09 pm
Heads up on the deadline: my MacBook Pro crashed and is dead and a new laptop won’t be in hand until possibly early August given Apple delays. So there will be a delay/extension til my computer arrives

Also, I hope no one ever audits old lists, because I didn’t back any of that up from my computer!
You don't have Dropbox, iCloud or anything else backing up your documents?

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#299 Post by Rayon Vert » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:52 am

senseabove wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:40 am
I was going to watch The Dawn Patrol tonight, but the source mentioned upthread, which opens with "Flight Commander" credits, looks like a 16mm print dug out of someone's flooded and caved-in basement, so I wanted to ask—is the WB Archive DVD any better? Or is that just how this film looks?
I just checked and the Archive disk is definitely better. It's a different print because the credits are "The Dawn Patrol", and while not perfect the image is definitely clearer and not wobbly.

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Re: Auteur List: Howard Hawks - Discussion and Defenses

#300 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:29 pm

Rayon Vert wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:52 am
senseabove wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:40 am
I was going to watch The Dawn Patrol tonight, but the source mentioned upthread, which opens with "Flight Commander" credits, looks like a 16mm print dug out of someone's flooded and caved-in basement, so I wanted to ask—is the WB Archive DVD any better? Or is that just how this film looks?
I just checked and the Archive disk is definitely better. It's a different print because the credits are "The Dawn Patrol", and while not perfect the image is definitely clearer and not wobbly.
I might pick up this DVD then - I would love an HD release, but I have a feeling that's never going to happen for this particular title. MoMA has actually screened it in 35mm numerous times (listing it as The Dawn Patrol, so presumably it's not the later re-issue), but I've never been able to make it.

Only Angels Have Wings remains a favorite, it's another Howard Hawks film that I wouldn't mind seeing remade. (Rio Bravo and Ball of Fire already got theirs, commendable ones too.) I say this because one of the most fascinating elements about Only Angels Have Wings is the context, which isn't completely explained - it's more or less an imaginary South American location, and the American mail carriers typically wear guns. I don't think a better film is likely to be made on this story, but imagine if it were made years or decades later, still Americans in a foreign land in what's then (or now) the present-day - the implications would be much more egregious. I suppose i'm thinking of Wages of Fear...anyway, it's always been something that's lingered for me about the film.

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