Michael Mann

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mfunk9786
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Re: Michael Mann

#176 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:58 pm

Brian C wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:45 pm
It seems extremely easy to believe that no one would want to give Michael Mann a bunch of money - or any money, frankly - to make a series about Vietnam. I love the guy but even I wouldn’t give him more than maybe fifty bucks to get that made.
Brian is right on.

It's a common misconception about the film business that somehow foreign investors are who you go to when Hollywood closes their wallets because they'll pay for anything, and if it worked that way, every independent filmmaker would be able to make anything they wanted. Just because someone doesn't work for a studio doesn't mean they like to lose money on something. It's very difficult to get films financed - look at First Reformed for example, and how many financiers have their names and logos appear before the opening titles. It's almost literally a rodeo of going around trying to gather up checks and add them all up to something resembling a budget for some people - and if you're Michael Mann with an ambitious idea that'll cost a good chunk of change, that's going to have to be a lot of checks.


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Re: Michael Mann

#178 Post by HJackson » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:05 am

What’s the deal with the season three Miami Vice episode “Shadow in the Dark”? Crockett and Tubbs are randomly working on a burglary case (with IIRC no explanation given, unlike other episodes where they venture outside of the regular vice beat) and Crockett goes insane trying to profile a pervert prowler who likes stealing men’s trousers and who might be moving towards rape and murder. It was broadcast two months after Manhunter came out and is so obviously modelled on that film that it really feels like you’re watching Manhunter rather than an episode of Miami Vice, with Don Johnson doing William Petersen doing Will Graham rather than playing Sonny Crockett.

What was Mann’s involvement with the show at this point? He’s still listed as an executive producer but the influence of Dick Wolf is already being strongly felt with topical episodes about the IRA and Nicaragua starting off the season. But this episode (which I quite liked) sticks out like a sore thumb and I’m wondering if this has ever been spoken about by people involved with the show? I also wonder about the legal and ethical questions that arise from ripping off your own movie, which was adapted from a popular novel, in such a way that you somehow evade crediting and paying the author of the ultimate source.

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Re: Michael Mann

#179 Post by colinr0380 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:03 am

I revisited Manhunter again last night and still enjoy it a lot. This time around I was really struck by the climactic irony of the way that the duality between the serial killer and the cop putting himself into their mindset in order to track them down turns into the cops themselves stealthily skulking (almost blundering) through the woods behind the killer's house before Will does his own version of a home invasion by leaping and smashing through the glass window! I kind of love that despite having that affinity with his prey that our cop hero just smashes his way in regardless of safety or alerting the killer, compared to the meticulous way that the Tooth Fairy used glass cutting equipment to gain entry into the homes of the families that he killed. I suppose it is the element of time being on one's side, or not, that decides the angle of attack in the respective situations!

That kind of reveals Will Graham's essential difference in humanity, and difference from the monsters he is sharing mindspace with, though. I think one of the things that I most appreciate about Manhunter is its 'discretion', in not revelling in showing us the murderous actions of the killer visually whilst still trying to understand their actions mentally in some depth. We get a lot of aftermath details but really the film is discreet about actually showing the murders being committed directly. There are moments of horrible imagery - I'm thinking about the crime scene photographs on the airplane, shown in flashes - but even there it is to show Will being forced back into such soul destroying work by the effect that such images have on a child sitting next to him and accidentally seeing the photographs as the folder opens whilst Will is napping, his mind briefly elsewhere.

I particularly love the 'journey' of the Leeds house throughout the film, with the film beginning with the pre-credits scene of the nocturnal entry of the killer until the woman wakes up as the torch is levelled on her (which later on gets replayed as the first of the killer's two 'ecstatic fantasy' mirroring moments). Then we get Will Graham visiting the still fresh crime scene, bodies removed but the walls still sprayed with arterial gouts of blood and stains from where bodies were propped up. And then near to the end to really get into the mind of the killer, Graham returns once more to re-trace the killer's steps, only now through the fully cleaned up and wiped down, ready for the estate agents to market with no trace of its previous human occupants remaining except in memory, house. Which is perhaps more upsetting than the bloody crime scene in some ways. This also all contrasts against continually returning to pore through the VHS tapes of the family home movies for clues, of the time when the house actually was a functioning home. Tapes which end up becoming clues in themselves after the investigator pulls back far enough to see the woods rather than the individual trees. I guess if being uncharitable someone could say that Michael Mann has always been a director focused on style and surface images than exploring characters, but I really think this illustrates the way that the style and locations often are the characterisation in his films, often for characters unable to articulate themselves verbally. In this case because they're dead.

And there is a lot of sympathy there for the killer, whilst not absolving him for his crimes (as well put in the comment that Graham makes about him), which perhaps also brings us to the use of the Hannibal "Lecktor" character in Manhunter. I particularly like that Lecktor is truly used as a supporting character here, who takes the opportunity to attack Will Graham and his family again even from behind maximum security bars, but who in talking to Will again almost accidentally provides the clue to him about how to track down the Tooth Fairy. I love that final telephone call as Will has the revelation about halfway through Lecktor's speech teasing him, which suddenly turns the tables. Lecktor has no more information to give, or role to play, at this point even whilst he is still talking away, and indeed he disappears from the film, his role finished. That is perhaps the major contrast against the Brett Ratner Red Dragon remake from 2002, which despite being a prequel has to flesh out the Hannibal Lector character more (by explicitly showing the violent attack on Will Graham in its prologue, again contrasting against Manhunter's discretion in just a verbal description of it, to a child no less (another example of innocence being in close proximity to the darkest parts of human nature, and needing protection for everyone's sake to match the child on the plane), being enough to chill the bones) and really turn all of the material into a showcase for Anthony Hopkins in his final portrayal of the character. Despite being chronologically the first in the series, Red Dragon only filmically makes sense coming after The Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal made Lector into the world's favourite serial killer. Manhunter, coming years before that iconic status, treats "Lecktor" as the manipulative monster that the police investigator only uses for as long as he has to, and even then it is incredibly dangerous to be in close proximity to for even that limited amount of time.

I love the tragic romance between the Dolarhyde and Reba too. It is so heartbreaking to think that this relationship with a superficially 'damaged' (by being blind) colleague could have been what could have saved the more deeply damaged Francis from committing his crimes. His focus on the visual as the ultimate sensory experience could have complimented Reba's blindness, but it all came far too late for him, and of course he horribly misinterprets the moment of a colleague brushing a bit of pollen from Reba's hair as a lover's betrayal (the second 'ecstatic fantasy' moment), which even though he is already a monstrous serial killer and the police are on their way to him already at this point, sort of shows that Dolarhyde himself if left to his own devices was going to have destroyed his one possibility of redemption anyway. That's sort of the Michael Mann theme running through all of his films (I think I mentioned it back on the Blackhat thread a few years ago), that the female characters are often in supporting roles and marginalised for the foregrounded stuff of men clashing together and often having punch ups or shoot outs, but they are often always portrayed as characters in their own right, often tormented by the way that they just cannot get through to the men in their lives and stop them from wrecking everything by following their prescribed moral codes, or going on that bank heist. Or from the demons in their own heads.

That's really why the domestic relationship between Will and Molly plays out the way it does. She cannot stop him from carrying out this investigation through to the bitter end even if it puts her and their son in danger too, and she can see the consequences that going down this path has on Will himself. Similarly Reba is the figure used as the possible saviour for Francis, even if she is rather unaware of her redemptive role in his life until he has fully turned away from her and become the Red Dragon, the murderous side that needs her to die to continue to exist within Francis. That's the tragedy of the film, even if it is happening to a man who is already pretty much irredeemable because he has butchered two entire families by that point. Perhaps the third family he was going to have murdered on that full moon cycle was going to have been the one he potentially could have had with Reba. In the end Francis gets remained as a single, incel-avant-la-lettre, 'worryingly single, possibly gay and wanting to be a woman himself' (not particularly endorsed by the film, particularly because it heartbreakingly focuses on the consumated love scene between Francis and Reba, but which does get used by the police colleagues calling the killer by the effeminate name of "Tooth Fairy" over the killer's preferred "Red Dragon" and even by Will in that tabloid magazine interview to infuriate the killer into revealing himself. Which also rather interestingly/worryingly contrasts against Buffalo Bill being exactly that kind of figure 'played straight' in Silence of the Lambs) figure who is wanting to be wanted by women already in happy family relationships because he is jealous of the life they have and love that they are providing. Francis for all of the Red Dragon ideas of being able to become something more ironically gets reduced into a petty nothing, which might be the appropriate fate for a villain wanting more power than they can handle (which is probably where the fate of the Nazi officers in Michael Mann's previous film The Keep could also come in as a carried over theme into this film).
Last edited by colinr0380 on Sun May 03, 2020 5:47 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Michael Mann

#180 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:33 am

colinr0380 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:03 am
And there is a lot of sympathy there for the killer, whilst not absolving him for his crimes (as well put in the comment that Graham makes about him)
Great thoughts, Colin! Will's line of "I feel sorry for the little boy, not the man" (or something of that nature) is one of my favorites because it allows him to simultaneously feel sympathy for Francis' trauma and move forward to hold him accountable, absolving him of past responsibility while holding him to it in the present, a separation that few people can and do afford another when weighing a person's worth. It's a very humanist approach and his line is one I think about often in both my professional and personal life.

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Re: Michael Mann

#181 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:33 am

Thanks! I did like that the Shout! Factory disc's menus continue that duality, with the menus of the Theatrical cut disc focusing entirely on Will Graham and those of the Director's Cut disc on Francis Dolarhyde. Also, I have always loved the way that the musical score is fully tied into the themes of the film, but especially so when it does the same contrasting thing, with Seiun underscoring not just the early scene of Will and Molly in bed before he goes off on his assignment, but the preceding scene in their beach house too, whilst This Big Hush does the same thing at the opposite end of the film for Francis and Reba, covering the love scene and the morning after scene following it.

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Re: Michael Mann

#182 Post by L.A. » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:07 am

The soundtrack for Manhunter is fantastic. I bought the CD which was issued on this format for the first time in 2010 with an extra track "Jogger's Stakeout" by The Reds, seems very hard to find now. Shriekback’s ”This Big Hush” is a great tune (I understand Mann was a big fan of the band), not to forget ”Graham’s Theme”. Unfortunately this is still not the complete soundtrack.

Doing some research another CD came out as well labeled Special Limited Fanclub Edition including all the songs heard in the film.

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Re: Michael Mann

#183 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:24 pm

Sounds like it was a bootleg but I'll be happy to be wrong. All of Mann's soundtracks are frustratingly incomplete.

A vinyl version was released, featuring two tracks including "Seiun / Hikari No Sono" by Kitaro which is featured very prominently when we first see Will Graham and his family.
Last edited by flyonthewall2983 on Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michael Mann

#184 Post by L.A. » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:46 pm

According to this The Keep DVD coming from Vision Entertainment in Australia.

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Re: Michael Mann

#185 Post by Orlac » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:18 pm

I wonder how old the transfer will be. Last time I saw it on UK TV, the transfer looked very laserdiscy.

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Re: Michael Mann

#186 Post by beamish14 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:09 pm

It amazes me how Mann, who doesn't have an office at Paramount, can still get them to suppress this film in the States. Paramount won't even loan out 35mm prints of The Keep-if you want it in celluloid, you have to borrow the BFI's copy, which has a lot of sprocket damage on the first two reels that causes a lot of buzzing.

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Re: Michael Mann

#187 Post by Orlac » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:59 am

Maybe Wilson DOES have a curse on him...

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Re: Michael Mann

#188 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:09 pm

I heard that Paramount hasn't kept the best care of their prints. Peter Segal said when he was looking at prints of Tommy Boy recently, the one Tarantino had a personal copy of was better than the one in their vault. And that movie was a hit.
Last edited by flyonthewall2983 on Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michael Mann

#189 Post by Orlac » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:14 pm

Paramount always seemed non-commital to their back catalogue.

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Re: Michael Mann

#190 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:05 am

Looks like Collateral is getting a 4K UHD release this year, in line with all of the other Tom Cruise catalog titles coming out this year

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Re: Michael Mann

#191 Post by Ribs » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:51 am

The first studio movie that was shot entirely digitally at 1080p - which should make how much better it can look an interesting test case...

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Re: Michael Mann

#192 Post by Oedipax » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:28 pm

Ribs wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:51 am
The first studio movie that was shot entirely digitally at 1080p - which should make how much better it can look an interesting test case...
Not entirely, but very close to it. According to the American Cinematographer article about Collateral, the night club sequence was shot on 35mm, so if nothing else, that section should improve at 4K. I would guess the HD stuff will look a little bit better too, with better color fidelity and less (added) compression.

As an aside, I was under the impression that Miami Vice was 100% digital, but that too had a couple shots made on film to counter extreme contrast/backlighting in some locations.

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Re: Michael Mann

#193 Post by L.A. » Tue May 12, 2020 8:32 am

L.A. wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:46 pm
According to this The Keep DVD coming from Vision Entertainment in Australia.
DVDFreak.

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Re: Michael Mann

#194 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sun May 17, 2020 1:11 pm

Michael on his Corona routine
Oedipax wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:28 pm
Ribs wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:51 am
The first studio movie that was shot entirely digitally at 1080p - which should make how much better it can look an interesting test case...
Not entirely, but very close to it. According to the American Cinematographer article about Collateral, the night club sequence was shot on 35mm, so if nothing else, that section should improve at 4K. I would guess the HD stuff will look a little bit better too, with better color fidelity and less (added) compression.

As an aside, I was under the impression that Miami Vice was 100% digital, but that too had a couple shots made on film to counter extreme contrast/backlighting in some locations.
There's a funny easter egg on the Collateral DVD where it shows one of the 35mm cameras jamming up.

Public Enemies was the first to be entirely shot digitally, a decision in retrospect he isn't so keen on or so I've heard in interviews.

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Re: Michael Mann

#195 Post by hearthesilence » Sun May 17, 2020 3:05 pm

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 1:11 pm
Public Enemies was the first to be entirely shot digitally, a decision in retrospect he isn't so keen on or so I've heard in interviews.
The logic behind the concept is pretty simple - imagine if you can look at that era as if it could be captured visually the way everything is today - but for a variety of reasons it felt like a terribly misguided idea, and the results speak for themselves. It simply looked like shit.

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Re: Michael Mann

#196 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sun May 17, 2020 5:26 pm

In a weird way it reflects certain dilemmas the main characters face regarding progress and innovation in their own fields. The way Hoover was leading the FBI is increasingly isolating Melvin Purvis, and Dillinger is being left twisting in the wind by organized crime when new technology comes along, and disregarding their need for outlaws.

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Re: Michael Mann

#197 Post by Always Points North » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:51 am

beamish14 wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:09 pm
It amazes me how Mann, who doesn't have an office at Paramount, can still get them to suppress this film in the States. Paramount won't even loan out 35mm prints of The Keep-if you want it in celluloid, you have to borrow the BFI's copy, which has a lot of sprocket damage on the first two reels that causes a lot of buzzing.
It's a real shame about the issues with The Keep — the sound mainly as far as I recall. In any case I particularly enjoyed Jürgen Prochnow's performance and, at the time, I was just realizing how many film scores Tangerine Dream had notched up. Sorcerer being another one I saw about 5 years ago at the same time. I much prefer their score for Legend as I think it fits the film better than Jerry Goldsmith's, which is great but too classical.

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Re: Michael Mann

#198 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:35 am

Always Points North wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:51 am
...and, at the time, I was just realizing how many film scores Tangerine Dream had notched up. Sorcerer being another one I saw about 5 years ago at the same time. I much prefer their score for Legend as I think it fits the film better than Jerry Goldsmith's, which is great but too classical.
It was great to get introduced to their title track for the 1985 Street Hawk show recently too! The show itself looks terribly cheesy but that's another wonderful Tangerine Dream track ("Le Parc")
Last edited by colinr0380 on Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Michael Mann

#199 Post by beamish14 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:48 am

Tangerine Dream's score for The Keep is soon to be readily available

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Re: Michael Mann

#200 Post by Always Points North » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:10 pm

colinr0380 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:35 am
It was great to recently get introduced to their title track for the 1985 Street Hawk show recently too! The show itself looks terribly cheesy but that's another wonderful Tangerine Dream track ("Le Parc")
Funnily enough they ran Street Hawk again recently here in the UK and I watched most of it — not sure the Pilot was shown though. The funniest part had to be George Clooney, just on every level :lol: . Same again, I didn't know that Tangerine Dream had done the music for this show and I liked it because it felt very different to other shows that were around at the time that are more fresh in my memory. Another very interesting thing was that Rex Smith was the original Daredevil, in The Trial of the Incredible Hulk.
beamish14 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:48 am
Tangerine Dream's score for The Keep is soon to be readily available
That's good to know.

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