Hong Sangsoo

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#351 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu May 14, 2020 5:00 pm

re: Prince Charming
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As a dream object, I think his characteristics are "fluid" -- but probably playfully impossibly ideal -- and perhaps almost an inverse image of Hong himself ;-)

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#352 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu May 14, 2020 6:04 pm

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I can see that - I like how he casually mentions that he is divorced but seems so calm and easy, seemingly representing this 'future' that Yu-mi Jung is confronted with by her mother at the water, which causes anxious distress. That she gets to teach him, or rather confidently provide wisdom (I love her line to him that muses on why people cannot just look at the beauty in front of them, that seems to inspire him) allows for her to dance with that image of the future without fear and on an even playing field. So the initial push-ins when her mother, and then his intrusive declaration of attraction, disrupt her aloof stance suddenly stop as she becomes familiar with this idea of a future of change.

I think part of what makes this film special is - in a similar way to how the list functions as a future-oriented object, but redefined as a tool to 'be present' in the future instead of focusing on the future to escape the present - is how this experience with Prince Charming allows for Yu-mi Jung to embrace that change will occur without needing to remove herself from the present to fear it. Change and being consistent in harmony with oneself are not mutually exclusive states, even if they appear to be in her previous understanding. This growth is incredibly optimistic and recognizes a shade of self-actualization that is invaluable to her development. By the end of this under-30-minutes film Hong was able to make me confident that she will be more than okay in life.
Out of the four or so Hong films I've seen this was definitely my favorite. Any others like List (they don't have to be that short)?

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#353 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu May 14, 2020 7:09 pm

Honestly, the only Hong film I felt comparatively "meh" about was Night and Day (and I really should give than another look one of these days). So it make it hard to make recommendations. What are the other ones you've seen besides Grass and List?

My favorites are Virgin Stripped Bare by her Bachelors and Woman on the Beach, with Tale of Cinema and Yourself and Yours as runners-up. But, really after my top two, most are pretty equal in my mind.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#354 Post by knives » Thu May 14, 2020 7:13 pm

Tale of Cinema is a really good choice and pretty easy to see if you have Prime.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#355 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu May 14, 2020 7:15 pm

Aside from these last two, I've only seen the Arrow Academy twofer of Woman is the Future of Man and Tale of Cinema the latter of which I loved much more. I think people have been continuously giving recs in this thread which I appreciate, so I won't keep asking but felt curious as to if any were in particularly in the vibe of that Rohmeresque short.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#356 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu May 14, 2020 7:20 pm

Yourself and Yours and the second half of Woman on the Beach (to me it seems to shift from a male-centered to a female-centered narrative midway through) might be as close as the features get to List -- other than Grass (but I might be forgetting something).

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#357 Post by knives » Thu May 14, 2020 7:36 pm

His Venice 70 short as well.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#358 Post by yoshimori » Thu May 14, 2020 8:51 pm

I'm one of those who's not a big (or even small, really) fan of Hong's recent work, someone who sympathizes with the reservations voiced by those categorized as ignorant "haters" occasionally throughout this thread.

My favorites, fwiw, are Tale of Cinema, Power of the Kangwon Province, and Oh! Soo-jung. Not sure whether something significant happened then, but 2010 is the dividing line for me. I liked or really liked or really really liked all the features through HaHaHa. I've seen all fourteen features post-that, but found them mostly, overall, tedious, sloppy. [I'll duck now.] I did find Grass - which I was dreading after Claire's Camera, and The Day After, and the beach movie - a notch above the rest of the post-HaHaHa crop though.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#359 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu May 14, 2020 11:09 pm

I don't believe I've ever seen anyone attack Hong non-fans as "ignorant haters" in this thread or elsewhere on this site. If it happened -- and I missed it, it was nonetheless surely an isolated remark. I think most Hong fans are perfectly aware that his work is not a universally shared taste and are at peace with this. ;-)

Perhaps I like the earlier half of his film output more on average, but I have found more than enough to enjoy in his more recentl films (even the ones you especially loathed). Chacun a son gout.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#360 Post by yoshimori » Fri May 15, 2020 1:35 am

Mais bien sûr.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#361 Post by dadaistnun » Fri May 15, 2020 8:03 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:31 pm
List uses a stratagem Naruse used in Morning's Tree-Lined Streets (which has a similar feel in some respects -- but perhaps a very different view of "Prince Charmings). (It really is a shame this Naruse film is one of the one's that seems never destined to get even streaming availability).
Probably more appropriate for me to post it in his thread, but Morning's Tree-Lined Streets is on YouTube.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#362 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri May 15, 2020 9:00 am

Glad to hear this. List and this Naruse film are two of only a few movies that I believe can be "spoiled" -- which makes it hard to discuss them. ;-)

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#363 Post by artfilmfan » Fri May 15, 2020 11:47 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:09 pm
Honestly, the only Hong film I felt comparatively "meh" about was Night and Day (and I really should give than another look one of these days).
If that still gets you nowhere, try giving it a third look one of these nights. If you still feel the same about it after that, you know you have given it your best effort, night and day. ;)

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#364 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri May 15, 2020 1:47 pm

I suspect Night and Day is simply too long for Hong's usual methods to work optimally. ;-)

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#365 Post by Dizzy88 » Fri May 15, 2020 3:02 pm

I’ve gone and edited the English subs for The Day the Pig...

I didn’t take the time to go back and fix the minor mistakes (A few parts that I felt could’ve been translated or phrased better, slight timing, length issues etc.), but it should still be infinitely better than the available subs.

I hope people could appreciate the movie on a new level. And would love some feedback if you take the time to check it out.

https://dizzy00.tumblr.com/post/618109 ... 96-english

Edit: Sorry here’s the link
Last edited by Dizzy88 on Fri May 15, 2020 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#366 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri May 15, 2020 5:07 pm

Dizzy88 -- How can we see the film with your corrected subs?

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#367 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri May 15, 2020 7:28 pm

dadaistnun wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:03 am
Michael Kerpan wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:31 pm
List uses a stratagem Naruse used in Morning's Tree-Lined Streets (which has a similar feel in some respects -- but perhaps a very different view of "Prince Charmings). (It really is a shame this Naruse film is one of the one's that seems never destined to get even streaming availability).
Probably more appropriate for me to post it in his thread, but Morning's Tree-Lined Streets is on YouTube.
I thought this Naruse was great and one of the most philosophically gratifying films of his that I’ve seen. In comparing to the Hong, the ideas of Prince Charmings are oddly parallel
Spoilers for both filmsShow
In each film, there is a dreamy element to the men serving as opposing physical symbols (frightening uncertainty of future in the Hong; saving grace for escaping the present in the Naruse) but each woman’s reaction is also opposite: in the Hong, she meets the fear with her authentic self and evens the power differential with empowered confidence; in the Naruse she reduces her own agency to be taken care of and pines after him, increasing a power differential which itself is a kind of safety mechanism in escaping the uncertainty of self-sustainment to secure companionship. However both films end with a dissolve into self-actualization- in the Hong, she no longer jumps at the fear of the future, having entertained it and found nothing to fear since she can trust herself to cope honestly with her own skills and values. In the Naruse, she wakes from a dream to realize it was a nightmare and throws away the man’s number understanding that this fantastical life was one of entrapment and the loss of agency she treasures. Through polarizing paths each woman becomes grateful in acceptance of her own life in the present.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#368 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri May 15, 2020 7:51 pm

knives wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:36 pm
His Venice 70 short as well.
This was one of the funniest shorts I've ever seen, that also happened to insinuate a dense past and future within a transient breezy interaction. The drop from light comedy to heavy mortality is done so well that at first it played off like an ironic joke (why wouldn't someone possibly want to smoke? Because they're unwell, of course) before the realization sank in that it's not absurdist comedy at all. Rewatching it a second time sucked the comedy out of it in favor of unsettling pathos, yet it can be read either way, much like Hong's own stance towards life's ambiguities in his other films. It's an incredible achievement to pull this range off in 90 seconds.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#369 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri May 15, 2020 9:07 pm

Where can one find the Venice short?

I can't imagine that Morning's Tree Lined Street wouldn't have found fans if it had been made more available at the height of the DVD era. I don't think it even showed up in any of the western Naruse 100 retrospectives (only in the complete one in Tokyo -- and then later onJapanese satellite tv).

If I were motivated to dop real writing anymore -- Naruse's occasional "surrealism" (which I find very akin to Bunuel's Mexican era surrealism) would be my second monograph -- after "Ozu After Dark". ;-)
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The course of the two heroine's dreams are almost polar opposites -- but their waking responses are indeed quite similar


I would say that List and MT-LS are probably their respective creators' most unalloyedly delightful products -- and it is interesting that they followed similar courses in achieving this. I can't imagine Hong would have ever encountered this (undeservedly) obscure Naruse film.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#370 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri May 15, 2020 9:42 pm

Yeah I’m getting that sense, rolling through this thread I see others have compared him to Rohmer before (of course) but List is definitely the film that earns it of all I’ve seen (been on a bit of a binge today).
Michael Kerpan wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 9:07 pm
Where can one find the Venice short?
On YT!

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#371 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri May 15, 2020 11:45 pm

The only Rohmer I can think of that has this sort of cheery, breezy tone (pretty much throughout) is Reinette and Mirabelle.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#372 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat May 16, 2020 12:56 am

I don't think they need to be "cheery" and don't find this to be synonymous with "breezy" - What makes Rohmer so special to me is that he fuses an ethereal tone with a groundedness that deals with heavy subject matter, and both warm and caustic socialization, without sacrificing that sense of grace. There is always a sense that the characters all have their own individual strengths that he, and by extension we, can see and a belief (so strong it's a conviction) that everything will be okay, resilience and change will occur as is the nature of life, and experiences will continue long after the camera cuts to black. List walks that middle ground- I certainly didn't find it 'cheery' but it retained a sense of optimism while acknowledging deep universal experiences of coping with change.


I watched a few more Hong films today and for the most part am on-board. I enjoy the autobiographical nature of 'directors' escaping into fantasies yet unavoidably rooted in some kind of reality. In something like The Day He Arrives, Hong will acknowledge that he has talent through his characters' observations, but he engages in an imaginative narrative where he takes a break to indulge in an existential crisis - the kind that are real and barely seem like one at all. Maybe that's what I relate to in some of these: that perpetual state of reflection and entertaining the dream of a vacation to new dimensions of self-actualization, while remaining cemented in the present. I know he gets accused of self-pity, and in a few of his works I can recognize that reading, but there is also something very authentic about the method he uses to goes about that path.

Hong strikes me as a very brave filmmaker because he's willing to go to those complicated vulnerable places, and take the first step where most won't dare. He knows that everyone engages in some form of self-pity but few want to admit it, and he doesn't stop there in examining the faults of mankind through himself. Alcohol is a recurring theme in his work, not as a specific commentary but as this example of an enigmatic problem across lives that contributes to hardship, yet people continue to indulge in. Alcoholism isn’t always apparent but it’s that emotional pull out of logic that is so accurate, barring any didacticism or easy-out into addiction; just a part in the average human, prone to indulging enigmatically in these curious mechanisms to cope with enigmas, people as contradictions, without shame but compassion and acknowledgement for our fallibility and sensitivities. Alcohol may contribute to many problems but it's also a tool to manage the problems of daily life, and a crutch to exacerbate the problems that would happen anyways due to imperfect characteristics. These characters live with negative core beliefs and a mix of natural and conditioned behavior sparking impulsively no matter how well they know themselves. In a sense, a few of these films are among the most realistic I've ever seen.


Virgin Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors was the best, again recognizing the inherent absurdity to human beings attempting to forge meaningful relationships (including literally verbalizing that they want the relationship to "be meaningful" in an argument!) which is funny, awkward, sad, and uncomfortably aggressive. Hong isn't afraid to sit with the sex drives that would constitute assault today, at least through coercion, without directional judgment but not condoning either, just observing the truth of individual desires trying to find a middle ground of harmony - and how even this idea has innately selfish foundations.

I didn't find the film to be very complicated and read it pretty clearly to be
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one half showing how events actually play out: one person has stronger feelings than the other, at least in certain respects; he has the drinking problem, the 'gloves' conversation is an awkwardly one-sided flirtation, he is sexually aggressive, explodes emotionally and sabotages his relationship, etc. - and in the other half, things are reversed: she initiates the 'gloves' flirtation and recognizes him, the friend is sexually aggressive, she and the friend are the ones who drink too much - and in the end she apologizes for being bad in bed, and he pledges to rid himself of all his faults and means it! The happy ending (and entire second half) is a dream, but one that the movies can give us, and simultaneously reveal - in contradicting itself with the first half - the space between the complacency of where we are at and the idealism of what we are striving for, suggesting a middle ground of self-awareness and growth. Basically like Mulholland Dr., sections reversed, without the Lynchisms - but still using the elliptical split structure out of interest in exploring the difficulties of coping with opaque psychological turmoil from tangible rejection.

In The Day After, his stand-in says, "Reality does exist - words can't describe it but we can feel it" which feels like a motto for his thematic interests. That is, until the woman he's speaking to calls him out on his own solipsistic belief system taken as fact to boost himself, and in the ensuing conversation he's reduced to being called a sick man and labeling himself a coward within minutes. So that combination of idealized philosophical acceptance of impenetrable parts of life, and the problematic compromised behavior we exhibit while trying to get there - even knowing this 'key' theoretical answer, divorced from practice - is more of the complex space he's operating in, in addition to leaving room for this philosophy being another form of self-gratifying false certainty (the best is after the existentialist speech -which in many ways speaks to me- in Yourself and Yours, when she calls him out on his superiority, "that's incredible - have you always been this innocent?").

Yourself and Yours also feels like the more optimistic answer to Virgin Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, and comes as close to equaling it as any of the recent ones I’ve seen.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#373 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sat May 16, 2020 11:13 am

I've always seen Virgin Stripped Bare as being (mostly) a his-then-hers viewpoint (with perhaps a "theirs" finale). Some aspects of each part of the narrative don't, however, neatly fit.

I seem to recall Yourself and Yours as being viewed as a lesser (and "slight") effort by a number of critics. I never quite understood this view.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#374 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat May 16, 2020 3:37 pm

Yeah I’d like to read Virgin Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors that way but it doesn’t work for a variety of reasons (characters shifting roles completely). It would fit with his interest in perspective, and so her excitement in the gloves handoff could be internalized, where she thinks she’s coming off (or inside wants to be) more animated in her excitement, for example.

Yourself and Yours was excellent, and one of the most positive examples of his fantasy-diving where neither Hong nor the characters care by the end, and reality and fantasy completely merge without any overt skepticism intruding in.

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Re: Hong Sangsoo

#375 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat May 16, 2020 8:42 pm

Right Now, Wrong Then uses Hong’s familiar dual narratives to tell a story more like Groundhog Day but where the “right” way still maintains character flaws. The key difference is honesty, and it’s a very relative and truthful depiction of what that means. In the first part, there is flirtation and emotion that feels authentic, including to the characters, but what’s missing is transparency- about surface details like marital status but also active selfless curiosity that leads to a process of ‘joining’ without a subconscious ulterior motive. His bad reputation is demolished in the second story, not because it’s untrue, but because his willingness to be more than that surface-level gossip publicly allowed for others to see his other dimensions. If we don’t participate fully without reservations how can we rise above snap judgments; and similarly, if we do participate, but only through the bare minimum of self-awareness and transparency, holding on to expectations, are we doomed to fail by never really leaving ourselves behind to connect with the other unconditionally?

The second half is a dream where inhibitions don’t exist and characters are self-actualized enough to confront their pains, though they still bear them. Even the “ring” moment becomes a playful exchange rather than a half-measured empty drunken gesture. In a way it’s like a two-sided 'mutual' version of Virgin Stripped Bare even if it’s still through his perspective, as both characters are afforded the benefits of such magic. The more of Hong I see, the more I believe that these films are therapeutic exercises for him to actualize his own desires for shedding his character defects and accessing the world on its terms, which supposes that he is reflective of his own maladaptive behaviors. I also get the sense that he isn’t in a perpetual state of melancholy either, and we may have similar beliefs- that through this continuous self-reflection and holding the real next to the ideal, you can find positive growth in between. There is a level of acceptance but also motivation for self-development that thwarts the potential complacency of living 'life on life's terms' without exercising the will.

However, the meta-contextual components coat this film in a different light, given the autobiographical nature of the affair that occurred while making this film. It’s not surprising in this case that the female lead is included so much more, comparatively with his other films, as reciprocally complicit and fleshed out in the fantastical section. The film may also be Hong lifting himself into the dream, a reading which at first didn’t work quite as well for me- yet I have to imagine that he is recognizing, with that first section, what the reality of his courtships are normally, (perhaps unfairly) assuming this was not a one-off affair. Maybe he chooses to see this affair as the latter section, as his behavior in the dream compared to his normal affair-behavior occurring like the first part? That reframe allows this love to be granted a special significance, him to notice his own growth, and also an acknowledgment (as has been a theme across his more recent string of films) that although his perspective is inherently flawed, he chooses to believe it anyways because we must all believe in something.

I can see how this film can be seen as the zenith of his work: the point he’s been moving toward with ‘domestic realism’ and imaginative ‘longing’ drowning the ennui like alcohol until he met “the one” by happenstance, and the cinematic style merged with his actual life: coincidence caught on film. This is one of the best Hong's I've seen so far.


Nobody’s Daughter Haewon mimicked List’s initial awakening to the unknown space of the future for a woman, and Jung Eun-chae is perfect here, feeling more authentic than most of Hong’s female characters. She also takes on the director’s role in a respect - Hong seems to be targeting himself objectively (relatively) with the ‘director’ character and yet emotionally expressing his intents and sensitivities with Jung. She drinks too much, chases relationships she knows are doomed, and is an all-around intelligent person who succumbs to her faults, like all of Hong’s characters. Similar to Right Now, Wrong Then, she finds that as she becomes more honest, she feels better and begins to gain confidence and self-respect in shedding the weight of these secrets, lies, and private hardships. Jung slowly loosens holds on attempts to solidify relationships, and experiences a series of impermanent interactions with people which makes this one feel most like Rohmer; grounded to reality’s troubles and nonlinear patterns of emotional regulation and identity development, yet framed to embrace a feeling of cosmic bliss, finding opportunities in each moment to soak up and let affect us, even if they are fleeting.

My favorite scene in any Hong film I've seen so far comes when she takes a drink from the man in the woods, then asks for a second and indulges it fully embracing the moment. In this brief instant, the reality and fantasy merge: this is a facade of the power of alcohol, of sustaining an emotional high from an empowering decision, yet it’s also very realistic subjectively; and the camera, and she, hold onto it for that minute. The fact that she takes a second drink allows herself a ‘do-over’ to hang on a little bit longer, and she takes advantage of it - embracing the power of agency. The next scene includes voiceover of Jung admitting that she’s lonely, sad, and scared, and then regresses back on her choice, but it’s not a failure because she had that twenty seconds of being in harmony with herself and the world, and that matters.


I like how the theme of ‘honesty’ as divorced from ‘positive’ is used elsewhere. While not a favorite, Our Sunhi involves a professor give an “honest” letter of recommendation rather than a “good” one, and when the heroine decides to buy him lunch to manipulate a fake-positive one, his motives aren’t revealed to be honest in an objective sense. This is totally in step with Hong’s own admission of how our definitions of even complex grey philosophies are ultimately self-serving and contain some blind spots, inherently from a lack of perspective. I appreciated how her identity is translated from a trifecta of narrative angles of the three men’s individualized points of view, which shows their own natural deficits to form fair judgments and also gives us food for thought in our own limitations to ‘know’ her objectively from three of these very subjective lenses. She becomes a bit like MO’s ‘enigmatic woman,’ even to herself, based on her final admission of a hazy identity and subsequent declaration to the professor that she’ll engage in a process of self-discovery over time.

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