UHD and HDR in General

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swo17
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#226 Post by swo17 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:52 am

Yep, that seems to be new since last night

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EddieLarkin
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#227 Post by EddieLarkin » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:33 pm

ryannichols7 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:09 pm
novice question here, and sorry if it's not the right place for it: is 16mm able to benefit a lot from UHD? I know that HDR is going to be a selling point here, but unsure about the resolution. I know stuff that's shot on 2K (Arri Alexa) is going to not pay off well, but this is the first I've heard of something 16mm being on UHD. would love to be filled in - For All Mankind is one of my very favorite movies and is definitely one I'd pick up if there's going to be a big step up.
I doubt one is going to see additional detail once you scan 16mm above 2K, but you'd certainly achieve a much more pleasing and faithful grain structure in 4K, which of course is going to remain faithful looking on UHD moreso than it will on Blu-ray. But in regards to FAM, if it is coming it'll surely be a new 4K transfer, with the earlier disc being 12 years old now, so the potential for a big upgrade lies there, rather than which format it appears on.

As for digital 2K, don't be so sure about the lack of benefits UHD can offer even just in terms of resolution (and the HDR benefits can be huge).

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mhofmann
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#228 Post by mhofmann » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:46 am

EddieLarkin wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:33 pm
I doubt one is going to see additional detail once you scan 16mm above 2K, but you'd certainly achieve a much more pleasing and faithful grain structure in 4K, which of course is going to remain faithful looking on UHD moreso than it will on Blu-ray.
I’d argue a finer grain structure clearly is additional detail (higher represented frequencies), so the above is a bit of a strange statement.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#229 Post by EddieLarkin » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:18 am

I wouldn't say that being able to represent grain at a higher frequency is necessarily going to reveal more actual detail within it. That entirely depends on the size of the stock and many other variables. Thus even with 35mm, you can oversample it at 6K or 8K but you're not necessarily going to find any actual detail that was obscured at 4K resolution. You only have to look at screencaps of 16mm stuff on UHD v BD to see that detail level is basically the same between them (assuming the same transfer/master), but the grain will be finer.

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mhofmann
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#230 Post by mhofmann » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:29 am

EddieLarkin wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:18 am
I wouldn't say that being able to represent grain at a higher frequency is necessarily going to reveal more actual detail within it. That entirely depends on the size of the stock and many other variables. Thus even with 35mm, you can oversample it at 6K or 8K but you're not necessarily going to find any actual detail that was obscured at 4K resolution. You only have to look at screencaps of 16mm stuff on UHD v BD to see that detail level is basically the same between them (assuming the same transfer/master), but the grain will be finer.
But what do you mean by actual detail? If a higher resolution scan reveals that the film elements contain finer grain (no matter the film stock) that is actual detail. I absolutely wouldn’t differentiate between semantic content and film stock properties here. It might be that semantically you’re not going to see more (additional objects, etc.) but a film scan probably only exploits the resolution of the particular stock if sampled at roughly twice the frequency of the low-percentile grain particle size.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#231 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:58 am

Popped in the UHD of A Clockwork Orange this morning and was shocked by how bright it is- like, strikingly washed out at times, like I have sun in my eyes. I realize this is a noob question, but is this a product of the format and the way the film was intended to look, or something to do with my setup? Don’t get me wrong, it looks fantastic and I’m not bothered by it, but as someone who rarely notices these kinds of things I’ve never been so aware of a brightness increase, and am incredibly curious for the reasons why

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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#232 Post by cdnchris » Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:28 pm

Watching the A Hard Day's Night UHD offers a good example of the upgrade HDR offers. The gradients in the grays are far better for starters. Aspects that look a bit blown on the BD offer subtler shades. But what really struck me were the lights that pop up throughout, from wall lamps to overhanging ones to the studio lights. On the BD most of these look a flat white, but on the UHD there are some subtle gradients that lead to you being able to clearly distinguish the bulbs themselves.

I mean, it's not huge deal, as I'm sure no one is screaming for being able to see light bulbs, but it just shows the fine details that can be extracted and what can get lost.

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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#233 Post by bluesforyou » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:55 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:58 am
Popped in the UHD of A Clockwork Orange this morning and was shocked by how bright it is- like, strikingly washed out at times, like I have sun in my eyes. I realize this is a noob question, but is this a product of the format and the way the film was intended to look, or something to do with my setup? Don’t get me wrong, it looks fantastic and I’m not bothered by it, but as someone who rarely notices these kinds of things I’ve never been so aware of a brightness increase, and am incredibly curious for the reasons why
I would say the problem is with your setup since the disc did not look remarkable in terms of brightness on my end. It looks like what I have come to expect from older films getting graded for HDR.

Check what the recommended tuned settings are for your display/projector.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#234 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:58 pm

I don't know if there's more to it than this, but I have the optimizer on, which I believe should be assisting in matching the picture to my TV's capabilities, and the brightness on 'standard', which is the least-bright option...

bluesforyou
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#235 Post by bluesforyou » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:14 pm

You still have that Element TV right? You will need to adjust the advanced picture settings where you can set the numbers for contrast etc. Also turn the HDR mode to Dark. Unfortunately not a lot of model specific information online so you will really just have to play around with the settings.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#236 Post by EddieLarkin » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:32 pm

First thing would be to check if the Optimiser is causing the issue by turning it on and off during playback to see how things change (though yes, the Optimiser should be dimming things overall not making them brighter).

If the Optimiser seems to be neutral or in fact helping the problem, leave it on but lower the Dynamic Range Adjustment slider (beneath the On/Off once you've held down the Optimser remote button) and see how that changes things. Lowering it will cause the Optimser to favour highlight detail over brightness, which might be the problem as ACO does have a fairly high nit grade (only 195 max average but 2553 max content).

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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#237 Post by bfaison » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:35 pm

I’m nowhere near the authority on this but Clockwork was pretty flawless imo. Picture wise I think it might even be the best Kubrick 4K when compared to the old BD. Nothing about it was washed out to me and overall it was no ‘brighter’ than Shining or 2001 which both have Dolby Vision and made my eyeballs drool. Check that the Tone Mapping or some other setting on your TV isn’t causing what you’re seeing. Also make sure to watch Clockwork with the OG mono audio track which if I’m remembering correctly is not the default on that disc.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#238 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:55 pm

EddieLarkin wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:32 pm
First thing would be to check if the Optimiser is causing the issue by turning it on and off during playback to see how things change (though yes, the Optimiser should be dimming things overall not making them brighter).

If the Optimiser seems to be neutral or in fact helping the problem, leave it on but lower the Dynamic Range Adjustment slider (beneath the On/Off once you've held down the Optimser remote button) and see how that changes things. Lowering it will cause the Optimser to favour highlight detail over brightness, which might be the problem as ACO does have a fairly high nit grade (only 195 max average but 2553 max content).
Thanks! The Optimiser was indeed dimming things so I adjusted that Dynamic Range Adjustment down to -3 or so... I assume I'll need to adjust this based on each film. Is there a way to determine/catalog the "nit" grade for each UHD I have (like, can I find this info on the disc/in the package, or an online resource)?
bluesforyou wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:14 pm
You still have that Element TV right? You will need to adjust the advanced picture settings where you can set the numbers for contrast etc. Also turn the HDR mode to Dark. Unfortunately not a lot of model specific information online so you will really just have to play around with the settings.
Thanks, though do I still need to do this if I follow the advice above from EddieLarkin, since the Optimiser is supposedly working with my TV's deficits to compensate?
bfaison wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:35 pm
I’m nowhere near the authority on this but Clockwork was pretty flawless imo. Picture wise I think it might even be the best Kubrick 4K when compared to the old BD. Nothing about it was washed out to me and overall it was no ‘brighter’ than Shining or 2001 which both have Dolby Vision and made my eyeballs drool. Check that the Tone Mapping or some other setting on your TV isn’t causing what you’re seeing. Also make sure to watch Clockwork with the OG mono audio track which if I’m remembering correctly is not the default on that disc.
It's definitely an excellent picture, I have no complaints- and yes, The Shining and 2001 were appropriately much brighter than I recalled, but this just seemed to be incredibly strong. So I started with the Mono track and then when I restarted the film after a client, it defaulted back to the Dolby track, and I'm not detecting anything wrong with it.. what am I missing?

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EddieLarkin
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#239 Post by EddieLarkin » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:18 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:55 pm
Thanks! The Optimiser was indeed dimming things so I adjusted that Dynamic Range Adjustment down to -3 or so... I assume I'll need to adjust this based on each film. Is there a way to determine/catalog the "nit" grade for each UHD I have (like, can I find this info on the disc/in the package, or an online resource)?
Most films should be fine to leave at the default On setting but the higher the nits it seems the more likely you'll need to reduce the Dynamic Range Adjustment. The 820 lets you see the nit levels if you hit the Playback Info button twice, but I know this wasn't available on the 420 model, at least initially. It may be they added it via a firmware update, but I'm unsure. Hit Playback Info twice and see if it gives you the second screen of information. If not there isn't really a resource you can use (other than searching the individual Blu-ray.com forum threads for each title, as they're often posted and is in fact where I sourced the ACO numbers), but an easy guide is that Warner Bros and even more so Sony discs are more likely to be bright, whereas everyone else not so much, though ultimately the real decision to adjust is going to be yours based on what you're seeing.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#240 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:35 pm

Thanks a bunch!

bfaison
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#241 Post by bfaison » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:56 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:55 pm


So I started with the Mono track and then when I restarted the film after a client, it defaulted back to the Dolby track, and I'm not detecting anything wrong with it.. what am I missing?
It’s this weird new remix. I got well into the movie before I noticed it the first time. Probably personal preference but I thought it sucked.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#242 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:17 pm

Right, that seems to be the consensus and that's why I went into this viewing with the mono option, but having then accidentally switched back after taking the disc out halfway through and not noticing anything wrong upon return to the Dolby track unknowingly, I'm just curious specifically what is "weird" about it? Bear in mind, I'm not an audiophile

bfaison
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#243 Post by bfaison » Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:39 pm

I can’t really tell you technically as I’m not an audiophile myself. Just someone who has seen it a million times before so I could tell (eventually) that it was off.

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swo17
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#244 Post by swo17 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:09 pm

Did they add different effects in places, or does the whole thing just sound like it's been processed weird?

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Finch
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#245 Post by Finch » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:29 pm

Panic Room 4k confirmed to Bill Hunt by industry sources for last week of March. Didn't think much of it at the time of release, maybe it'll play better now (though I definitely prefer it to Dragon Tattoo).

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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#246 Post by bfaison » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:48 pm

swo17 wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:09 pm
Did they add different effects in places, or does the whole thing just sound like it's been processed weird?
No not at all, it’s the mix. Might even be preferable to some but to me it’s off.

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swo17
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#247 Post by swo17 » Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:53 pm

The relative levels of things then

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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#248 Post by bfaison » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:13 pm

Something is wrong there is what I’m saying anyway.

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swo17
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#249 Post by swo17 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:37 pm

A24's "first in a new line" (read: not super tall packaging): Valdimar Jóhannsson's Lamb on 4K

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movielocke
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Re: UHD and HDR in General

#250 Post by movielocke » Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:50 pm

I have an amusing UHD anecdote. I thought I was technically savvy on 4k and HDR, but I was not.

Sony 4k TV, 4k HDMI cable, 4K sony bluray player. but I've only watched two or three UHDs, I popped in Menace II Society a few weeks ago and thought it looked absolutely incredible. I paused it about midway through for a bathroom break and when I came back, hit "display info" to see how much time was left. But what was surprising was the upper right display said something like "4KHDR-->SDR" and I was like what?

Cue stopping the movie and an hour plus of going through HDR settings on the TV and settings on Bluray player to figure out what was what, toggling things, going back to the movie. toggling more things going back, trying to figure out what was the secret combination of things that make it display properly. Apparently my bluray player had been set (by default or me i don't know) when I first got it to convert HDR to SDR, which was the primary offensive setting, but the bluray player also had settings for Deep Color HDMI (wtf is that?) and Dolby Vision, whilst the TV had settings for HDR, HDR10 and others but no matching setting labeled dolby vision. I'm still not sure if the settings are right, it doesn't look as good in HDR to HDR as when the HDR-to-SDR setting on the bluray player was enabled (which I think was probably just compressing and boosting the contrast and saturation falsely but was nevertheless dazzling to watch). but I've also never calibrated the TV in HDR, as I calibrated it when I first got the TV, and so the HDR turned on looks slightly washed out because the contrast and brightness don't seem correct in HDR (but they're bang on in SDR).

oh well, I'm sure I have hours of education and fussing with it in front of me. How does one calibrate in HDR?

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