UHD Encodes and Technical Discussion

[mfunk9786]

Hello! This thread is where you can engage in discussing and arguing about the quality of encodes. If you feel Finch's list over in our main UHD thread has any inaccuracies, I'm sure he'd be fine with you reaching out to him directly to discuss. Otherwise, please keep any discussion around file sizes and bitrates, whether Fidelity in Motion or some inferior encoder worked on a title, etc... right here in this thread.

If anyone has any recommendations for key technical resources to link to in this opening post, please DM me and I'll add them.

Our other main UHD threads:

UHD New Releases, Reissues and Upgrades
UHD Special Editions and Packaging

[nicolas]

I’ve got to strongly disagree with you recommending the BD over UHD because of encode, the HDR for this makes Richardson’s cinematography look as it should and swapping back to the BD is a completely flat experience in comparison. There is zero chance I’d ever watch the film on BD in the future after seeing the UHD and while I can see in motion the issue with the highlights its nowhere near bad enough to knock this down from a blue category listing. I’m also seeing the optical fade mentioned on the other forum and wondering if that’s a mistake. It’s like most opticals where they “snap” back to full resolution once the fade is complete except here it “snaps” back to original luminance.

I was just about to answer in the other thread to follow-up on Bringing Out the Dead. My post below is an answer to this post which in turn references my review of the film.

I didn’t recommend the BD over the UHD, only mentioned that the encode is objectively better on the BD as it’s more consistent throughout compared to the spotty nature of the 4K encode. The highlight issues are definitely there but, again as mentioned, less so in DV to a point where it’s essentially not bothersome in motion compared to viewing it in HDR when you see the pixel blocks more noticeably and definitely in motion too. DV FEL is a sizable improvement and it’s readily apparent if you compare the two layers back to back.

Regarding the colors, the BD didn’t appear flat to me at all. I was more than surprised to see how nice it looks. This looks very much DP-supervised compared to many past, incredibly flat and creamy Paramount grades (Terms of Endearment, Planes, Trains and Automobiles, Footloose etc.). The colors in SDR are closer to some of Richardson’s other films with Scorsese than the HDR grade. Obviously each film is different and not always supposed to look like the one before but the way the HDR grade looks isn’t conventional and makes for a markedly different viewing experience as I tried to emphasize in my post. In case that’s of help for some, for my first viewing of the film I’ll choose the UHD.

[nicolas]

Body Double 4K screenshots were just posted on the other forum: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=200

Excellence throughout and superb audio curation by Sony (Atmos, 5.1 and the original 2.0 surround) on a BD-100 make this a brilliant release but Indicator’s Blu-ray set an incredibly high standard already. I’ve recently put in their BD and it’s still a cornerstone BD encode that’s closest to a 4K UHD. Hopefully we’ll get a comparison soon.

[cinemaniac]

I'll be posting a comp on BR.com when I get my UHD, as I already have the fantastic Indicator release.

[bfaison]

I’ve got to strongly disagree with you recommending the BD over UHD because of encode, the HDR for this makes Richardson’s cinematography look as it should and swapping back to the BD is a completely flat experience in comparison. There is zero chance I’d ever watch the film on BD in the future after seeing the UHD and while I can see in motion the issue with the highlights its nowhere near bad enough to knock this down from a blue category listing. I’m also seeing the optical fade mentioned on the other forum and wondering if that’s a mistake. It’s like most opticals where they “snap” back to full resolution once the fade is complete except here it “snaps” back to original luminance.

I was just about to answer in the other thread to follow-up on Bringing Out the Dead. My post below is an answer to this post which in turn references my review of the film.

I didn’t recommend the BD over the UHD, only mentioned that the encode is objectively better on the BD as it’s more consistent throughout compared to the spotty nature of the 4K encode. The highlight issues are definitely there but, again as mentioned, less so in DV to a point where it’s essentially not bothersome in motion compared to viewing it in HDR when you see the pixel blocks more noticeably and definitely in motion too. DV FEL is a sizable improvement and it’s readily apparent if you compare the two layers back to back.

Regarding the colors, the BD didn’t appear flat to me at all. I was more than surprised to see how nice it looks. This looks very much DP-supervised compared to many past, incredibly flat and creamy Paramount grades (Terms of Endearment, Planes, Trains and Automobiles, Footloose etc.). The colors in SDR are closer to some of Richardson’s other films with Scorsese than the HDR grade. Obviously each film is different and not always supposed to look like the one before but the way the HDR grade looks isn’t conventional and makes for a markedly different viewing experience as I tried to emphasize in my post. In case that’s of help for some, for my first viewing of the film I’ll choose the UHD.

It seemed like you were in the end, the only reason I responded was because it appeared you lot were going to put it down a notch lower than Blue which was off base to me. It's a shame this film was stuck on DVD for so long so it's great the BD is a good one but in terms of the SDR grade being better representative of Richardson's work with Scorsese I also have to disagree, this looks much in line with Casino in terms of HDR color where the black levels and highlights make the SDR look comparatively flat and the dynamic range just aids Richardson's style making the blown highlights look properly blown next to the pitch blacks. Going back and forth between the new UHD and BD it's really not a question to me, and much like Casino I don't think I'd ever watch it on BD again. The new interview with Scorsese reminiscing on the shooting was great to see, I can't recall hearing him talk about it before.

[nicolas]

Stardust (Paramount) is a solid upgrade. Screenshot comparison between BD and UHD (base HDR layer and DV FEL layer) courtesy of Kobe8bryant: https://slow.pics/c/xL2oHEuq

[cinemaniac]

Stardust (Paramount) is a solid upgrade. Screenshot comparison between BD and UHD (base HDR layer and DV FEL layer) courtesy of Kobe8bryant: https://slow.pics/c/xL2oHEuq

I'm cinemaniac over here :)

[nicolas]

The Hitcher (Second Sight) technical analysis (screenshots, BDInfo & audio): https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... count=1115

[Finch]

Question about the encodes of the older Shout 4Ks of They Live and Escape from New York: I know the Italian discs are meant to be better encoded overall but I believe the Italian discs only have 5.1 but the Shouts have the OG mono. If the Shout encodes are good enough the OG audio would make me lean towards the Shouts. I seem to recall the UK Studio Canals were good in DV only but that's not an issue as I plan to get a DV capable player anyway.

[dwk]

I think the big issue with Shout's first two Carpenter UHDs (Prince of Darkness and They Live) is the wrong color space setting was used.

[Finch]

I forgot about that. And the steelbooks have typically been just reissues instead of improvements like Sony's.

[nicolas]

I forgot about that. And the steelbooks have typically been just reissues instead of improvements like Sony's.

Yes, the Steelbooks are sadly just reissues. I have the Carpenter films that are on 4K all from Shout despite the color space issue on PoD and They Live.
Moments like this put me off the SC despite the better colors: https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0 ... 5&i=20&l=0

Eagle are releasing a new Carpenter box set next month and most unfortunately these seem to be their old HDR10 / English 5.1 discs.

[Finch]

Is Escape from NY worth getting from Shout?

[nicolas]

Is Escape from NY worth getting from Shout?

Yes, definitely. Screenshots look much better to me. A drastic example is this one. It also looks like the SC has raised gamma levels.

I can't tell you anything specific about the audio though. For me personally, even if Shout didn't have OG audio, I'd still choose their 4Ks over the Studiocanal ones.

[Finch]

Thanks nicholas.

[nicolas]

I'm honestly a bit shocked that no one's really been talking about the UHD of All of Us Strangers. I'm immensely happy that the film got a 4K release but I'm overjoyed since seeing this astonishingly beautiful transfer and grade. It would've been a damn shame had the film remained streaming only. I can't say how the Disney BD turned out but this should be an essential upgrade for the HDR alone. Also, the UHD is a feast for grain lovers as the DP really pushed the film stock away from the cleanliness of today's film stocks and the need to have tidy images. I really have to say again that I was absolutely stunned by how beautiful the master looks, which doesn't happen too often with me but I also didn't expect anything gargantuan after having seen the stream.

As revealed in the BDInfo scan at the other forum, the film got all the disc real estate in the world and the stats look dangerously like KL's UHDs but don't worry, for the most part the 4K looks truly beautiful except for minor niggling issues that prevent it from being superb, namely traces of chroma noise in HDR10 and brief, nasty macroblocking when the image gets red and busy. See below in my screenshots.

Audio is remarkable and so beautifully dynamic - a massive improvement to the stream once again. If you like the film, this is a must-buy and despite the small issues, this is one of my favourite releases of the year.

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I hope that Chris reviews the UHD as well!

[mfunk9786]

My wife’s seen this but I haven’t, you’ve certainly sold a copy during the sale.

[nicolas]

My wife’s seen this but I haven’t, you’ve certainly sold a copy during the sale.

Very happy to hear that! I hope you enjoy the film and 4K as much as I do. The bonus features should also be superb. I listened to a few minutes of the DP interview and it’s quite insightful.

[black&huge]

Thank you Nicolas! Coincidentally when you had posted those caps my copy arrived later in the day!

[cdnchris]

Very happy to hear that! I hope you enjoy the film and 4K as much as I do. The bonus features should also be superb. I listened to a few minutes of the DP interview and it’s quite insightful.

The two new interviews are excellent. The other features were produced by Disney and are more puff pieces, but there are a few interesting things buried in them, like the creation of the city backdrops for the apartment scenes.

[nicolas]

I've received the UHD of Downfall / Der Untergang from Constantin Germany (it has English subs) and am honestly shocked about what product they're feeding us. This is one of the worst encodes on the 4K format, no hyperbole. While I can't yet post BDInfo, I did get a glimpse at the disc size and, unbelievably, Constantin or whoever did their disc, compressed the film + everything else that's on the UHD down to 57 GB (!!!) in total. Yes, this is a BD-66 but they didn't even fill that. A refund paid this for me, otherwise it would've gone straight back.

This film is 155 minutes long, in 1.85:1 (aspect ratio thankfully corrected from the BD's 1.78) and shot on film. Fidelity in Motion could likely make this work but not a company that only releases 4K UHDs once or twice over the span of a few years.

Again, I can't make screenshots yet, so I'll try and explain. When grain is there, it's mostly buzzy and swarming around the screen in insect-like movements. As soon as things get even a little brighter, grain and fine detail is no longer visible and wiped out by the encode. When it's darker, grain is there and okay but absolutely nothing to write home about in contrast with normal and brighter moments.
With UHD and HDR, if properly presented, we can finally see films in a way where disbelief suspends that the "organic grain" we're seeing is just a pixel party. The best encodes do that, such as The Hitcher to name a recent example and it's a wonderful feeling.

Downfall is the exact opposite. We're constantly reminded that we're looking at a poor encode and a digital presentation. It's not immersive and not adequate for the film. There's no way around, it's an awful, awful encode and personally I think worse than Kino's poorest efforts. The reason being that Kino's auto encodes are serviceable when highlights aren't involved. A good example is Stalag 17, which I'm often using as one of their signature bad encodes. On this UHD, highlights are wiped out and grain cuts off razor-sharp at the border to something less bright, such as buildings or people. However, if grain is visible, it's usually rendered very sharply and precisely and in these isolated moments, the UHD looks like a DCP. I'm not praising KL here as their work is also awful but at least there is some sense of consistency in where grain is properly reproduced and where not. With Constantin and Downfall, it's all over the place and a neither/nor presentation. Grain is neither there when it's bright and buzzy in the dark.

I've compared the BD, which is the old one and the film looks better there. Due to the bad UHD encode, actual image detail isn't really worse and compression on the BD is better. Grain is there, fairly quiet and even. It's a fine presentation and the film looks more filmic and unobtrusively watchable for what it is on BD than in 4K, although the old master is obviously inferior with worse grading and traces of ringing / edge-enhancement. I haven't looked at the BD for long and don't know if there are any other issues.

The new 4K master on its own is very good and hints of that shine through here and there. The film's OCN was scanned and they did a rebuild in a way that the shots without VFX were carried over scanned from the OCN and they upscaled the VFX shots from the DI. The difference is drastic as they applied a bit too much HDR to these shots which makes them look artificial and the encode just doesn't retain detail. I will try and show this in my caps once the disc unlocks. It's not a situation like The Pianist where some effects were newly remade but then again they didn't DNR the OCN shots to match the VFX. I definitely prefer the way they did it for Downfall though. If you / others have any questions about details, please ask as I've last seen the film 10 years ago and can't point towards specific scenes that may be crucial.

And one more thing re. the audio. On the other forum, there's been some controversy about my "harsh" comments re. Constantin and them still using DTS-HD HR audio, which is not DTS-HD MA and a lossy format from the early Blu-ray days that was quickly replaced by the lossless MA. Constantin are still using HR audio all those years later. I've extracted the HR mix from the Blu-ray and checked the waveforms, which reveal that the track is clipped when it gets loud. Either the lossy compression cut off the high frequency detail or it's a poor mix. A lossy DTS 5.1 track that's also on the disc is exactly the same as the "High Resolution" HD track. Through and through a disappointing release.

[Maladroit Aggregator]

I've received the UHD of Downfall / Der Untergang from Constantin Germany (it has English subs) and am honestly shocked about what product they're feeding us. This is one of the worst encodes on the 4K format, no hyperbole. While I can't yet post BDInfo, I did get a glimpse at the disc size and, unbelievably, Constantin or whoever did their disc, compressed the film + everything else that's on the UHD down to 57 GB (!!!) in total. Yes, this is a BD-66 but they didn't even fill that. A refund paid this for me, otherwise it would've gone straight back.

This film is 155 minutes long, in 1.85:1 (aspect ratio thankfully corrected from the BD's 1.78) and shot on film. Fidelity in Motion could likely make this work but not a company that only releases 4K UHDs once or twice over the span of a few years.

Again, I can't make screenshots yet, so I'll try and explain. When grain is there, it's mostly buzzy and swarming around the screen in insect-like movements. As soon as things get even a little brighter, grain and fine detail is no longer visible and wiped out by the encode. When it's darker, grain is there and okay but absolutely nothing to write home about in contrast with normal and brighter moments.
With UHD and HDR, if properly presented, we can finally see films in a way where disbelief suspends that the "organic grain" we're seeing is just a pixel party. The best encodes do that, such as The Hitcher to name a recent example and it's a wonderful feeling.

Downfall is the exact opposite. We're constantly reminded that we're looking at a poor encode and a digital presentation. It's not immersive and not adequate for the film. There's no way around, it's an awful, awful encode and personally I think worse than Kino's poorest efforts. The reason being that Kino's auto encodes are serviceable when highlights aren't involved. A good example is Stalag 17, which I'm often using as one of their signature bad encodes. On this UHD, highlights are wiped out and grain cuts off razor-sharp at the border to something less bright, such as buildings or people. However, if grain is visible, it's usually rendered very sharply and precisely and in these isolated moments, the UHD looks like a DCP. I'm not praising KL here as their work is also awful but at least there is some sense of consistency in where grain is properly reproduced and where not. With Constantin and Downfall, it's all over the place and a neither/nor presentation. Grain is neither there when it's bright and buzzy in the dark.

I've compared the BD, which is the old one and the film looks better there. Due to the bad UHD encode, actual image detail isn't really worse and compression on the BD is better. Grain is there, fairly quiet and even. It's a fine presentation and the film looks more filmic and unobtrusively watchable for what it is on BD than in 4K, although the old master is obviously inferior with worse grading and traces of ringing / edge-enhancement. I haven't looked at the BD for long and don't know if there are any other issues.

The new 4K master on its own is very good and hints of that shine through here and there. @James: The film's OCN was scanned and they did a rebuild in a way that the shots without VFX were carried over scanned from the OCN and they upscaled the VFX shots from the DI. The difference is drastic as they applied a bit too much HDR to these shots which makes them look artificial and the encode just doesn't retain detail. I will try and show this in my caps once the disc unlocks. It's not a situation like The Pianist where some effects were newly remade but then again they didn't DNR the OCN shots to match the VFX. I definitely prefer the way they did it for Downfall though. If you / others have any questions about details, please ask as I've last seen the film 10 years ago and can't point towards specific scenes that may be crucial.

And one more thing re. the audio. On the other forum, there's been some controversy about my "harsh" comments re. Constantin and them still using DTS-HD HR audio, which is not DTS-HD MA and a lossy format from the early Blu-ray days that was quickly replaced by the lossless MA. Constantin are still using HR audio all those years later. I've extracted the HR mix from the Blu-ray and checked the waveforms, which reveal that the track is clipped when it gets loud. Either the lossy compression cut off the high frequency detail or it's a poor mix. A lossy DTS 5.1 track that's also on the disc is exactly the same as the "High Resolution" HD track. Through and through a disappointing release.

You could have expressed all of that much more directly with a simple gif/meme, I think you know which one

[nicolas]

You could have expressed all of that much more directly with a simple gif/meme, I think you know which one

You’re free to do so but I certianly wouldn’t even if I knew what gif/meme you’re talking about.

[CSM126]

[Maladroit Aggregator]

Exactamundo