Who Gives Good Commentary?

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Maltic
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#276 Post by Maltic » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:44 pm

That's just silly. Actually, I never understood why people would comment on accent, tone-of-voice, etc

As for Bordwell, he's a busy man as it is, I guess, even in quasi-retirement.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#277 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:34 am

How are Amy Simmons' commentaries, and- to keep in the topic of this thread- how is her commentary on the KL blu of Alps? Thinking of finally taking the plunge since it never seems to dip below ~$20 and that would certainly help my rationalization

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MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#278 Post by MichaelB » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:37 am

Maltic wrote:That's just silly. Actually, I never understood why people would comment on accent, tone-of-voice, etc

As for Bordwell, he's a busy man as it is, I guess, even in quasi-retirement.
I hate doing stuff on camera and haven’t done it for something like four or five years. Self-filmed stuff is a bastard to get right, although now that I have a technically competent son I might give him a go as a cameraman and see how that turns out.

(I have a current commission that could either turn into a video piece or a commentary, depending on how much material I can amass - the last time I had that choice and plumped for a shorter video piece was Second Run’s The Shop on the High Street, which is over two hours long and I thought I’d struggle to fill a commentary without a lot of padding. But a 40-minute video piece turned out to be ideal.)

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MichaelB
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Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#279 Post by MichaelB » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:41 am

therewillbeblus wrote:How are Amy Simmons' commentaries, and- to keep in the topic of this thread- how is her commentary on the KL blu of Alps? Thinking of finally taking the plunge since it never seems to dip below ~$20 and that would certainly help my rationalization
I haven’t heard that commentary (or indeed any of her others), but I edited her excellent, wide-ranging video essay about female mental illness for Indicator’s Lilith and enjoyed her similar piece on Paul Verhoeven’s Spetters (BFI). In fact, they're effectively short commentaries - I don't know how the BFI editor worked, but on Lilith she basically sent me an audio recording that I illustrated.

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tenia
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#280 Post by tenia » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:31 am

Maltic wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:22 pm
Very charming, but it provided hardly any insights into the film at hand, as I recall. :)
I had to listen to the Brian Blessed's Flash Gordon audio commentary and he sure seemed to be having a lot of fun but offered pretty much no insight at all (or rather nothing that couldn't have been summed up in 5 minutes instead of a 112 min audio commentary), since 99% of his commentary is him paraphrasing (hyperbolically, but not always) what's happening on-screen.

I know many people love this commentary, but I have no idea why anyone would rationnally find it purposeful considering how little info it brings to the listener and how, usually, commentaries like these (the commentator spending 99% of the com' simply paraphrasing the action) are particularly disliked and considered as one of the most useless type of audio com'.
I assumed it simply was because of Blessed's positive aura within the Flash Gordon's fandom, since I couldn't find any other logical reason to love so much such a commentary, especially since I never liked the movie much.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#281 Post by MichaelB » Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:54 am

tenia wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:31 am
I had to listen to the Brian Blessed's Flash Gordon audio commentary and he sure seemed to be having a lot of fun but offered pretty much no insight at all (or rather nothing that couldn't have been summed up in 5 minutes instead of a 112 min audio commentary), since 99% of his commentary is him paraphrasing (hyperbolically, but not always) what's happening on-screen.

I know many people love this commentary, but I have no idea why anyone would rationnally find it purposeful considering how little info it brings to the listener and how, usually, commentaries like these (the commentator spending 99% of the com' simply paraphrasing the action) are particularly disliked and considered as one of the most useless type of audio com'.
It's Brian Blessed, though. I suspect he's not quite as much of a national treasure outside the UK, but here he's right up there with David Attenborough and Alan Bennett, and so consequently there are plenty of my fellow compatriots who'd gladly listen to a two-hour commentary of him reading the phone directory. Rationality simply doesn't come into it.

See also Jack Nicholson's commentary for The Passenger, which - and I'm really not exaggerating - could very easily double as an audio assistance track for blind people. But, again, I'm inclined to cut him a lot of slack because it's Jack Nicholson, and even though he rarely does much more than simply describe what's on screen, it's still a weirdly compelling experience. Is this his only commentary, out of interest? I can't think of another one off the top of my head.

(Although since we were well aware of the Nicholson commentary's content shortcomings we commissioned a new one from Adrian Martin, who was absolutely in his element.)

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tenia
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#282 Post by tenia » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:16 am

Yes, I suspected it definitely was simply him and his domestic aura, but I expected something so much better (and different) when listening to it for the first time that I wondered what people were talking about.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#283 Post by MichaelB » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:18 am

On the subject of paraphrasing the action in general, this is something I have to be constantly aware of. My stuff tends to be very scene-specific, and I'm extremely conscious of the danger of just slipping into describing what's on screen - Brian Blessed and Jack Nicholson may be able to get away with it, but I definitely can't! The trick is to prepare thoroughly enough to make sure that in every case where you're addressing what's on screen directly, you regularly pepper it with enough additional material that isn't obvious to the viewer.

Come to think of it, here's an example of me trying to maintain this balance, from Arrow's The Night of the Shooting Stars, although I still cringe at the bit at 3:43 where I completely failed to mention that the two girls are Taviani offspring (one per brother) - something that I knew beforehand but for some reason forgot to bring up when it mattered.

(Incidentally, my alternating between "San Martino" and "San Miniato" isn't a mistake, although it sounds like one without the context that I provided before this excerpt - San Martino is the fictional town where the film takes place, San Miniato the real-life town where Paolo & Vittorio Taviani grew up. Although listening to it again, I suspect I probably should have said "church" instead of "cathedral", although there must have been a reason why I plumped for the latter.)

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Cash Flagg
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#284 Post by Cash Flagg » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:25 am

Maltic wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:44 pm
That's just silly.
At the risk of stating the obvious, that post came from a troll account. Not sure why it was necessary to repost it here.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#285 Post by MichaelB » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:29 am

Well, it made me laugh, so that's a good enough reason. My attitude from the moment that I first went online more than a quarter of a century ago is that if someone dishing out gratuitous abuse isn't prepared to sign their real name to it, it's not worth taking seriously.

I'm also reasonably sure from the wording that it's a troll that we've seen round these parts too.

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brundlefly
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#286 Post by brundlefly » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:03 pm

L.A. wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:46 pm
How is Ellinger’s audiocommenting on The White Reindeer? Has anyone listened to it?
Unsure whether I've heard any others by her, but remember this one a lousy listen. Between its many redundancies and the way she seemed to free associate to other genre films with which it felt she was more familiar, it's a bunch of jumbled notes and an occasional glance at the screen. The MoC disc also has an audio essay by Amy Simmons, who's been mentioned here as well; even though only a fraction of that deals with White Reindeer -- there's more about Danes than Finns -- it's crafted, pointed, and succinct.

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Maltic
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#287 Post by Maltic » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:16 pm

I generally prefer critical/scholarly commentaries. After all, that's what critics and scholars were trained to do - researching, analysing, presenting the results. While, as Plato supposedly said (by way of Borges), artists don't understand their own creations because they're inspired directly from the Gods.

That said, there are obviously some great cast/crew commentaries, even jokey ones, like Joe Dante & co. on The Howling and Innerspace. Kurt Russell and Carpenter did the one on Big Trouble in Little China, where Russell basically provides a laugh track, but it's still enjoyable and informative. More seriously, John Boorman's commentary w/ Steven Soderbergh on Point Blank I found interesting. Young hip director having Lee Marvin, Dickinson, and a crew of grand old MGM veterans at his disposal. Charles Burnett's commentary w/ Richard Peña on the Killer of Sheep DVD is invaluable.

As for paraphrasing, John Mueller's Swing Time commentary tends to do that with the Astaire-Rogers moves, almost frame-by-frame, but as a dance know-nothing, I still found it kind of useful.

Edit: That's an interesting clip, Michael. (I haven't seen the film)

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#288 Post by MichaelB » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:31 pm

Maltic wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:16 pm
I generally prefer critical/scholarly commentaries. After all, that's what critics and scholars were trained to do - researching, analysing, presenting the results. While, as Plato supposedly said (by way of Borges), artists don't understand their own creations because they're inspired directly from the Gods.
Some do, some don't. John Waters' commentaries are invariably superb, and Herschell Gordon Lewis's are vastly superior to the films that he's talking over, as he cheerfully acknowledges (he must be the only filmmaker ever to refer to one of his films being "excreted" rather than released). Ken Russell also gives excellent value, and knows when to catch the right tone - his commentary for Song of Summer (the film of which he's personally proudest) is very different from his one for Lair of the White Worm, but that's entirely fitting. And a left-field nomination would be Dick Clement, director of Otley and A Severed Head - perhaps it's not surprising that his commentaries (both for Indicator) are consistently witty and well-observed, given that his directing career largely fizzled out in favour of being co-writer of some of Britain's most beloved sitcoms and comedy-dramas (The Likely Lads, Porridge, Auf Wiedersehen Pet), but when combined with uncannily good recall of the day-to-day filming process on each film they work especially well.

And of course we've all heard critical/scholarly commentaries that badly miss the mark, which is why I don't prejudge them until I've had a chance to hear them for myself. And I'm also very fond of one-offs like the This Is Spinal Tap commentary by the band in character, which was like watching the film again for the first time (the running gag is that they hate the film and especially despise Marti DiBergi, its fictional director) - I can see an approach like that being disastrous in 99% of cases, but it works peculiarly well here.

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JSC
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#289 Post by JSC » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:41 pm

by MichaelB » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:31 pm Ken Russell also gives excellent value, and knows when to catch the right tone - his commentary for Song of Summer (the film of which he's personally proudest) is very different from his one for Lair of the White Worm, but that's entirely fitting.
Would love to see Salome's Last Dance get a decent release someday, especially since Russell gave a good commentary for the old Image disc.

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Sternhalma Weinstein
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#290 Post by Sternhalma Weinstein » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:22 pm

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:32 pm
While we're on the topic of commentaries, I just saw a less-than-flattering post about Michael Brooke today:
Didn't know he did commentaries -- the video segments I've seen him in were unwatchable, like a lisping speedfreak struggling to keep up with a teleprompter, completely unnatural and offputting.
Not sure why you felt the need to post this without attaching my name to it... unless you're simply stirring the pot. You knew I posted it, as you yourself posted immediately after me in that same blu-ray.com thread.
Cash Flagg wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:25 am
Maltic wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:44 pm
That's just silly.
At the risk of stating the obvious, that post came from a troll account. Not sure why it was necessary to repost it here.
I guess the "internet definition" of "troll" is now the same as that of "Nazi" and "racist" -- i.e. someone you disagree with? It must be nice to live in your own fantasy world with your own rules! In fact, my post was on topic, so that's the end of that. If anyone is a troll, it is "yodaswinemaster" above, who clearly is trying to get a rise out of users here with his "anonymous" re-posting.
MichaelB wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:29 am
Well, it made me laugh, so that's a good enough reason. My attitude from the moment that I first went online more than a quarter of a century ago is that if someone dishing out gratuitous abuse isn't prepared to sign their real name to it, it's not worth taking seriously.

I'm also reasonably sure from the wording that it's a troll that we've seen round these parts too.
"The wording"? Come on, Mike, enough with the coy obtuseness. A simple google search by you (or "yogasmega" above) would have settled the authorship in 15 seconds, and we could all cut to the chase knowing that I post on both boards under the same name (which is more than I can say for some members, who for whatever reason post under one name here and another there...)

As for "taking someone seriously" -- this business of handwringing over academic vs. "amateur" commentary never fails to disgust me. It should be noted that it's almost always the credentialed academics who lose their gourds when the issue is brought up, and who obviously feel threated that someone might care enough about a subject to be an autodidact, and not need the approval of "peer review" to publish or speak on the matter. It's obviously a case-by-case basis, but there's a loooong history of "fans" who have contributed research and study of important artists that would have been lost or buried if the "academy" or mainstream media had anything to say about it.

Does anyone know more about Bava than Tim Lucas? Please, tell me who. Would the attention paid to Theodore Sturgeon, Philip K. Dick, or Brian Wilson's SMiLE recording exist if not for the late Paul Williams exaustive dedication? Hardly.

But, of course this is off-topic (apparently grounds for calling other members "trolls" - though I'm interested in words that actually have meanings) so let's turn this dead horse around:

The commentary for Kino's Secret of My Success is almost unlistenable! Why? I'm sure any of the duplicitous members reading this will be happy to scour the other board and lift my quote there, saving me the trouble. I appreciate it! Suffice to say the track is awful for the same reasons I think Brooke's AV stuff is awful: a stuttering, speed-addled, halting presentation. Bryan Reesman's research is very thorough (he even went to the trouble to interview cast members) but the tone of the presentation is verging on mental illness.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#291 Post by MichaelB » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:33 pm

Sternhalma Weinstein wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:22 pm
"The wording"? Come on, Mike, enough with the coy obtuseness. A simple google search by you (or "yogasmega" above) would have settled the authorship in 15 seconds, and we could all cut to the chase knowing that I post on both boards under the same name (which is more than I can say for some members, who for whatever reason post under one name here and another there...)
You're assuming that I cared enough to Google, which I obviously didn't.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#292 Post by yoloswegmaster » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:41 pm

Sternhalma Weinstein wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:22 pm


Not sure why you felt the need to post this without attaching my name to it... unless you're simply stirring the pot. You knew I posted it, as you yourself posted immediately after me in that same blu-ray.com thread.
Please forgive me for not instantly recognizing your name. [-o<

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Maltic
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#293 Post by Maltic » Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:59 pm

Odd to be angry that someone reposted a shit-post of yours without graciously citing the source.

Who knows more about Bava than Lucas does? Bava's mother, probably, but that wasn't the point. And as I said, you can't fault Lucas' research, and I liked his Leone commentary...

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Sternhalma Weinstein
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#294 Post by Sternhalma Weinstein » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:07 pm

yoloswegmaster wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:41 pm
Sternhalma Weinstein wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:22 pm


Not sure why you felt the need to post this without attaching my name to it... unless you're simply stirring the pot. You knew I posted it, as you yourself posted immediately after me in that same blu-ray.com thread.
Please forgive me for not instantly recognizing your name. [-o<
Hilariously disingenuous evasion, your "What, me?" act, after posting that shit above. Keep it real, "420" dude

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Sternhalma Weinstein
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#295 Post by Sternhalma Weinstein » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:11 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:33 pm
Sternhalma Weinstein wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:22 pm
"The wording"? Come on, Mike, enough with the coy obtuseness. A simple google search by you (or "yogasmega" above) would have settled the authorship in 15 seconds, and we could all cut to the chase knowing that I post on both boards under the same name (which is more than I can say for some members, who for whatever reason post under one name here and another there...)
You're assuming that I cared enough to Google, which I obviously didn't.
But you cared enough to make half a dozen responses about the repost, nonetheless. Fact is, you're just upset you couldn't figure out how to worm in yet another reference/namedrop to your own work, as you always tend to do. "Indeed."

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DarkImbecile
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#296 Post by DarkImbecile » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:18 pm

Have a nice couple of weeks away from the forum, Sternhelma.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#297 Post by yoloswegmaster » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:24 pm

To keep it on topic, KL announced today that they were going to release George Sherman's 'Larceny'

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domino harvey
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#298 Post by domino harvey » Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:57 pm

Maltic wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:04 pm

BTW. Nick Pinkerton apparently had said something unfavourable about Mark Kermode recently and Kermode responded on Twitter saying that film critics shouldn't criticize each other. I noticed that, in the replies to Kermode's tweet, Ellinger called out Adrian Martin. She speculated that Martin had made his comments because he was unhappy not to have the commentary jobs for himself.
Martin’s rate is over three times what Ellinger et al accept from Kino Lorber. Like a lot of independent contractor work, the market suffers when less highly qualified people lower their rates and corner cutters use them, creating a new lowered expectation for what the going rate is in general

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tenia
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#299 Post by tenia » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:19 am

But if audio commentaries are getting revived thanks to the hundreds annual releases of Kino, isn't it also a question of supply vs demand question ? It's bound to require more people to cover all those, thus opening the market for more people and "massify" it a bit, hence the expectable lower rates. It's not always a question of qualifications, but it's easier to maintain high rates when it's "either you" or nothing since the label won't have a lever for negociation.


As for the above discussion about "troll", I'm fascinated bt how people making hyperbolic crap-posts can end up thinking more and more the term is abused as a very broad way. Trolling has a specific meaning in terms of posting content and behavior and, well, the people accused of it often have been troll posting. Sometimes, things are just that simple.

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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions

#300 Post by MichaelB » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:29 am

Sternhalma Weinstein wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:11 pm
But you cared enough to make half a dozen responses about the repost, nonetheless. Fact is, you're just upset you couldn't figure out how to worm in yet another reference/namedrop to your own work, as you always tend to do. "Indeed."
No, I was just continuing to take part in what for the most part was a perfectly amiable and mutually respectful conversation.

And I didn't bother Googling because I immediately recognised who you were from Yoloswegmaster's original unattributed quote - the latest incarnation of this guy, a self-confessed troll (which I trust answers Tenia's point above) who was banned last year, a few months before you registered here and started posting from the start as though you were a veteran (always a giveaway).

Of course, I could be wrong and it could just be an unfortunate series of coincidences, and I agree that a full-strength jury might hesitate to convict on that evidence alone - but others are welcome to click on my second link and compare not just the writing style but the fondness for gratuitous personal abuse (of Domino Harvey this time).

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