English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

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Moe Dickstein
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#76 Post by Moe Dickstein » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:37 am

The irony is something Kalat pointed out in a commentary, I think for Godzilla, that back in the 50s dubbing was considered to be the preferred option, that it showed greater respect for the film than just a cheap subtitling job. Of course that attitude has changed.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#77 Post by EddieLarkin » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:36 am

He also notes in the commentary for Die 1000 Augen des Dr. Mabuse, that with the film being dubbed for all markets, including German, it was Lang's intention that English viewers only see the film in English. That for an English viewer, watching with the English dub is actually the "proper" and Lang approved way to see the film, as opposed to hearing a language you don't understand and trying to keep up via words on the screen.

Though I seem to recall Pasolini being quoted as saying that he prefers his original Italian dubs in all cases.

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colinr0380
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#78 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:55 pm

MichaelB wrote:
GaryC wrote:Gazon maudit aka French Twist?

I did see that at the time, but only the French-language, English-subtitled version.
That's the one - it's all coming back to me now. The idea was to release it in subtitled and dubbed versions and make it clear that the latter was the exact equivalent of a top-of-the-line French dub, which was an interesting notion in theory (like it or not, if a film is subtitled there is an absolute upper limit of people who'll be prepared to go and see it, and this was a mainstream comedy), but it would have needed a far bigger push than just the one film in order to overturn people's cultural expectations. The problem being that while the British don't like subtitles, they like dubbing even less!
I've got a copy of Gazon maudit recorded from Channel 4 (subtitled of course!) and I can kind of see why a more 'popular' and mainstream comedy film might be seen as having a bigger audience dubbed. Despite the extra issues that it might cause with having to translate humour, I seem to remember a lot of that film having a lot of class and accent-based humour to the truck driving woman's relationship (amusingly described as an "itinerant lesbian" in the imdb description!) with the buttoned up housefrau. While that comes across in its original language, I suppose there could be an argument made that you would need more of a trained ear to particular accents to fully appreciate the culture clash comedy!

Although I guess if that gets too out of hand there is always the risk that the dubbed track ends up like Eurotrash!

On a similar note I remember the English dubbed track of Satoshi Kon's anime Perfect Blue giving the heroine a mid-Western twang to her accent when she calls home from the big city to speak to her parents that contrasts to her more 'neutral' accent in the rest of the film. It is following the similar change in accent from the original Japanese track, but something that perhaps might not have been picked up on by an English-language audience the way that the dubbed track is able to emphasise.

Despite all of this, I would still consider myself a purist. While there will always be an issue with subtitles too, even when I do not understand the language there is always a nuance to the original dialogue and performance that gets lost once it has been translated, even when it replaced by an excellent, or 'faithful' translation! (I still remember the English dubbed track of Run Lola Run which heavily implies that Lola's real father is the security guard at her father's bank! Which is completely absent from the original German track! It is a neat twist though!)

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knives
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#79 Post by knives » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:36 pm

EddieLarkin wrote:He also notes in the commentary for Die 1000 Augen des Dr. Mabuse, that with the film being dubbed for all markets, including German, it was Lang's intention that English viewers only see the film in English. That for an English viewer, watching with the English dub is actually the "proper" and Lang approved way to see the film, as opposed to hearing a language you don't understand and trying to keep up via words on the screen.

Though I seem to recall Pasolini being quoted as saying that he prefers his original Italian dubs in all cases.
Yes, some people have strong opinions one way or the other. For example I believe despite acting in English Herzog prefers the German dub of Wrath of God.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#80 Post by matrixschmatrix » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:37 pm

I'm fully prepared to support, intellectually, the arguments in favor of dubbing, but I think the subs-are-better prejudice is too ingrained in me at this point to be fair about it in my own viewing- whenever I notice something is dubbed, it's distracting as hell. Sometimes, you just deal with it- it seems silly to watch The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly in Italian- but even for animes and Godzilla movies, I generally go with original language and subs.

Though I think the habit in dubbing anime of casting familiar actors actually kind of works against it- even when they're good, recognizing the voices makes the whole thing more distracting still.

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knives
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#81 Post by knives » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:41 pm

Outside of Pixar who does that? Usually it's just the typical Huston crew that dubs anime.

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colinr0380
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#82 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:44 pm

I remember when ADV Films was still around, their DVD release of Neon Genesis Evangelion included some commentary tracks with the voice actors who along with the company were Texas-based (such as Tiffany Grant and Spike Spencer) and their experience in doing tons of different shows for the company.
matrixschmatrix wrote:Though I think the habit in dubbing anime of casting familiar actors actually kind of works against it- even when they're good, recognizing the voices makes the whole thing more distracting still.
I guess that is also due to a smaller pool of dependable and regularly called upon voice actors doing anime dubbing? I guess the video game equivalent of that is Nolan North's voice turning up in almost every major game!

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EddieLarkin
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#83 Post by EddieLarkin » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:57 pm

It makes no difference to me how "light" something is, if I feel it is "meant" to be watched in a non-English language, I'll go with that, whether it's anime (even when driven mostly by nostalgia of a dubbed version) or the silliest of Godzilla films.

The only exceptions are usually foreign films with English leads/casts. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly is a good example; 3 very recognisable and distinctive English speaking leads, in a film set in America during a significant American historical event. I can't imagine watching that in its original dub.

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Moe Dickstein
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#84 Post by Moe Dickstein » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:59 pm

The other interesting case is something like The Leopard where you can either hear the "original" Italian but have to deal with watching Burt Lancaster who's voice one presumably knows, be dubbed. That's one case where his performance worked better for me in the dubbed version in watching both cuts.

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zedz
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#85 Post by zedz » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:02 pm

Dylan wrote:The French Serie Noire Studio Canal DVD of Pierrot le fou (released in 2001) includes a spectacularly awful English dub where every line of dialogue is spoken as if the movie's characters were narrating a period educational documentary. Must be seen/heard to be believed.
I'm no fan of the film in the first place, but that English dub renders it completely unwatchable.

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zedz
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#86 Post by zedz » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:22 pm

knives wrote:Outside of Pixar who does that?
Ghibli, for one.

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knives
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#87 Post by knives » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:28 pm

I'm assuming we're talking english dubs in which case mentioning Ghibli is redundant as Pixar heads those.

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MichaelB
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#88 Post by MichaelB » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:31 pm

Ghibli is an interesting case because Arrietty was originally released with two English dubs - an American one and an Anglo-Irish one. I've only heard the latter, but I thought it worked very well, especially given the film's English cultural roots. (Although, that said, the American dub Anglicises the characters' names while the Anglo-Irish one retains the Japanese originals.)

And of course other Ghibli titles have had more than one English dub, although I think in those cases the second dub was a more technically sophisticated one that was recorded a fair bit later - what's interesting about Arrietty is that it was conceived with differing accents from the start.

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zedz
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#89 Post by zedz » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:02 pm

As Michael indicates, Ghibli does this even when Pixar isn't involved (Princess Mononoke, English Arrietty).

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knives
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#90 Post by knives » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:20 pm

I don't know about the English Arrietty, but Mononoke was still Lasseter supervised and the other American dubs he cites didn't feature stars (mostly because I doubt Kaufman could afford them).

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Kirkinson
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#91 Post by Kirkinson » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:33 am

knives wrote:I don't know about the English Arrietty, but Mononoke was still Lasseter supervised and the other American dubs he cites didn't feature stars (mostly because I doubt Kaufman could afford them).
I don't think that's correct. Lasseter didn't get involved in the dubs until Spirited Away. Mononoke's dub was spearheaded by Jack Flecther, who also supervised the English version of Kiki's Delivery Service (which did have celebrities in it) and the first English dub of Castle in the Sky.

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knives
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#92 Post by knives » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:05 am

Ah, my bad though it was still under the house of mouse technically.

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zedz
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#93 Post by zedz » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:16 pm

Really, I think the 'celebrity' voiceover or not question for anime is more a function of what chances the distributor thinks the film will have in English-speaking markets. Like it or lump it, celebrity dubs are the norm for animated features in America (and England, though that's obviously to a lesser extent). If a distributor wants their film to compete with domestic product, they're going to try to scare up as many big names as they can.

The fact that a lot of anime doesn't have this feature is surely more because:
- there's a hell of a lot of anime out there
- most of it is much lower rent than Ghibli's stuff and will never attract a mainstream audience

If those second and third tier releases had a snowball's chance in hell of getting Christian Bale and John Goodman to voice their characters, and could afford their fees, they'd be totally pimped out with celebrity turns. Going with no-names isn't some kind of noble purity, it's brute economics and showbiz reality.

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knives
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#94 Post by knives » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:39 pm

I don't think anyone was suggesting that.

Smafdy
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#95 Post by Smafdy » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:33 am

_shadow_ wrote:Personally, I regret the lack of an English dub on "8 1/2", as it was actually quite well done and included dialogue that was normally passed over in subtitle translation. I encountered it via the 35mm print screened in our film class, and was quite surprised (and a little annoyed, until I gave the dub the benefit of the doubt) that an Italian print wasn't obtained, since it was regularly screened at revival houses with its Italian audio.
This is the only mention of an English dub for 8 1/2 I can find on the internet. Does it actually exist?

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MichaelB
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Re: English Dubbing Inclusion on the DVD

#96 Post by MichaelB » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:48 pm

MichaelB wrote:And while I'm on the subject, if Borowczyk's Docteur Jekyll et les femmes ever gets untangled from its horrendous rights labyrinth, I urge DVD producers to include both the French and English tracks - Patrick Magee is firmly in the Jones/Baker camp, and the English version is also rendered in this bizarre but oddly effective cod-Victorian dialect that I thought worked surprisingly well (horrendous lipsync aside).
What a wonderfully nostalgic post to stumble upon when re-reading this thread!

And I'm delighted that I took my advice five years later. In fact, co-producer Daniel Bird and I agreed upfront that not including the English track would be a deal-breaker - and we were both fully prepared to rip it from a VHS tape if it came to it. (Although thankfully it didn't.)

Two other linguistic issues that recently arose with either myself or my colleagues at Arrow were to do with Rabid Dogs and La Grande Bouffe. In the case of the former, they had an extremely disgruntled customer who had never watched a subtitled film in his life and would never have bought Rabid Dogs if he'd known upfront that it was exclusively in Italian. But while I'm sure if the film had been completed in 1974 as planned, an English dub would have been recorded as a standard part of the film's post-production, by its eventual completion in the late 1990s the landscape of Italian cinema had changed so much that it was never a realistic option. And of course Arrow couldn't possibly have afforded their own English dub for a single-territory release of a fairly niche title.

With La Grande Bouffe I was urged to consider including the Italian language track, on the grounds that it's the native language of the film's director and "half the cast" (which translates as "two of the four lead actors"), and that Marcello Mastroianni and Ugo Tognazzi speak with their own voices. This was a reasonably persuasive argument, particularly the latter element, but it became very clear very quickly that the film was shot in French with direct sound and that Mastroianni and Tognazzi are definitely not dubbed by others. (Indeed, the extras prove that both of them spoke French well enough to give interviews in the language). And since licensing the Italian dub would have meant ditching at least one of the extras in compensation, I decided not to bother: nobody other than a native Italian speaker would prefer a dubbed Italian track to an original French one. But I did at least take this seriously enough to investigate the underlying issues.

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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#97 Post by _shadow_ » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:19 pm

Regarding 8 1/2, I've never encountered the dub anywhere else, but I believe it was released on VHS in two editions - one subtitled, one dubbed.

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Dylan
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#98 Post by Dylan » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:48 pm

Somebody who owns a 16mm print of the English dub of 8 1/2 projected it and uploaded an excerpt onto YouTube. Seems like a much more chaotic film with the English dub.

I remember being at a video store over a decade ago and seeing two copies of the Vestron 8 1/2 VHS side by side, one of them labeled as being in English. This link appears to be a listing for that release.
Last edited by Dylan on Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Smafdy
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#99 Post by Smafdy » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:01 pm

Thanks for the help with this. After seeing 8 1/2 dozens of times and falling in love with it a little bit more every time, I'm just curious to watch it with the English dub.

I'll be on the lookout for for the Vestron VHS version.

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Swift
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#100 Post by Swift » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:05 pm

Apologies for the bump but I've read through the various subtitling/dubbing threads on the forum and this seems to be the most appropriate.

Most cinephiles tend to prefer subtitles over dubs in almost all cases, but I've been reminded lately that that's not the case for the average viewer. On another (non-movie related) board I visit, posters discuss watching Netflix shows like Dark and Babylon Berlin in the dubbed versions. I had completely forgotten that that's how a lot of people consume foreign language films/TV, if they consume them at all.

I've been wondering is there a similar breakdown along cinephile/non-cinephile lines in non English speaking countries? For instance, do mainland European cinephiles prefer to watch the film in its original language or are they quite fine with watching a dubbed film? Does the average cinemagoer in Europe or Asia despise subtitles in the same way an average joe in the US or UK might ("If I wanted to read I'd pick up a book") or are they more open to it?

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