English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

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knives
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#26 Post by knives » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:54 am

The Leopard, The Age of the Medici, and Black Orpheus at minimum have an English track/ version. I believe a few other but can't remember right now. While they're not invaluable they do offer an interesting insight into American perceptions of the time and can occasionally be fun or in the case of Age modestly helpful.

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TMDaines
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#27 Post by TMDaines » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:22 am

A complete waste of time on the whole in my opinion. If the director didn't intend for the film to be shown with an alternate audio track then why would you want it?

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CSM126
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#28 Post by CSM126 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:57 am

knives wrote:The Leopard, The Age of the Medici, and Black Orpheus at minimum have an English track/ version. I believe a few other but can't remember right now. While they're not invaluable they do offer an interesting insight into American perceptions of the time and can occasionally be fun or in the case of Age modestly helpful.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure Medici was filmed in English to begin with (which is perfectly clear when you turn the English track on and suddenly everyone's lips match up to the audio).

Others with DUB tracks:

Forbidden Games
Cries and Whispers
Salo
Rashomon
Seventh Seal
Amarcord
La Strada
The Silence
Hard Boiled
Mon Oncle Antoine
Winter Light
Rififi
Fanfan la tulipe
The Virgin Spring
Contempt
Nights of Cabiria
Fanny & Alexander - The Theatrical Cut
Empire of Passion
That Obscure Object of Desire
Through a Glass Darkly
Autumn Sonata

...which is more than I would have guessed, to be honest.

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Tribe
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#29 Post by Tribe » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:48 am

TMDaines wrote:A complete waste of time on the whole in my opinion. If the director didn't intend for the film to be shown with an alternate audio track then why would you want it?
I'd much rather see and hear it as intended...but you give directors way too much credit and authority.

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domino harvey
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#30 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:51 am

Maybe for a kids' film. So, like, why wasn't there one for Blood of the Beasts :P

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Re: English Audio Tracks

#31 Post by colinr0380 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:17 am

Contempt's English dubbed soundtrack is hilarious, completely destroying Giorgia Moll's character and the various combinations of language barriers between the characters that is integral to the film. The dub also totally ignores the way that the soundtrack is meant to rise up and drown out the character's meaningless platitudes at certain points, instead always keeping the music as classical underscore!

But it was great to have it included on the DVD as perhaps the most radical way of rendering a Godard film even more inscrutable than initially intended until we get to see what Film Socialisme's Navajo subtitles are like!

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TMDaines
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#32 Post by TMDaines » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:35 am

Tribe wrote:
TMDaines wrote:A complete waste of time on the whole in my opinion. If the director didn't intend for the film to be shown with an alternate audio track then why would you want it?
I'd much rather see and hear it as intended...but you give directors way too much credit and authority.
Who should the "credit and authority" go to, if not the director, in most of these films?

Are you happier with the statement "the intended language" with no mention of the director instead?

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aox
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD

#33 Post by aox » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:04 pm

The Bicycle Thief CC also has the english dub included.

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Tribe
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#34 Post by Tribe » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:17 pm

TMDaines wrote:
Tribe wrote:
TMDaines wrote:A complete waste of time on the whole in my opinion. If the director didn't intend for the film to be shown with an alternate audio track then why would you want it?
I'd much rather see and hear it as intended...but you give directors way too much credit and authority.
Who should the "credit and authority" go to, if not the director, in most of these films?

Are you happier with the statement "the intended language" with no mention of the director instead?
Often, the decision whether or not to dub into a different language is not one the director controls...hence, the director's "intent" means nothing since he or she didn't have enough control over the production to begin with. Like I said though, I'd rather watch in the original language in which it was filmed.

That aside, it's auteur theory gone amok and taken to illogical extremes to allow a director's imputed "intent" to govern how we should or shouldn't watch a movie. For example, Directors who oppose chapter breaks on a DVD...that's utter nonsense and presumptuous.

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TMDaines
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#35 Post by TMDaines » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:45 pm

Tribe wrote:
TMDaines wrote:
Tribe wrote: I'd much rather see and hear it as intended...but you give directors way too much credit and authority.
Who should the "credit and authority" go to, if not the director, in most of these films?

Are you happier with the statement "the intended language" with no mention of the director instead?
Often, the decision whether or not to dub into a different language is not one the director controls...hence, the director's "intent" means nothing since he or she didn't have enough control over the production to begin with. Like I said though, I'd rather watch in the original language in which it was filmed.

That aside, it's auteur theory gone amok and taken to illogical extremes to allow a director's imputed "intent" to govern how we should or shouldn't watch a movie. For example, Directors who oppose chapter breaks on a DVD...that's utter nonsense and presumptuous.
Off on a tangent here: but anything other than the original/intended audio track (or in some cases, tracks) is wrong in my opinion. Language isn't supposed to be translated, and when it is something is always lost in translation.

I was watching La grande illusion earlier and in that film you have a combination of French and German used. The film would lose an incredible amount if you dubbed all that into English. Nevermind any loss of or change in meaning: just the loss of the language barrier between the two different speakers would make a huge difference.

There's a good post earlier in the thread that really captures the spirit of what I mean:
Michael Kerpan wrote:Some people positively resent being "forced" to hear a language other than English being spoken -- so much so that they dislike traveling abroad to anyvplace where English is not the primary language. And this can be true of people who are otherwise extremely intelligent.

Sad, but true.
I just don't understand why you would ever want to hear anything other than the original. Any translation should be an aid to understanding the original speech/text - not a replacement. You can understand so much just through the visuals and the expression, tone and emotion of the human voice. Why would you want to replace this?

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Re: English Audio Tracks

#36 Post by Tribe » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:07 pm

TMDaines wrote:I just don't understand why you would ever want to hear anything other than the original. Any translation should be an aid to understanding the original speech/text - not a replacement. You can understand so much just through the visuals and the expression, tone and emotion of the human voice. Why would you want to replace this?
When did I say I wanted it replaced...or that I was somehow English-centric whose ears can't bear anything other than English? I have never, ever listened to an optional dub into English on any movie I own.

That's a fact, Jack.

Having said that, I don't find anything wrong at all with someone else wanting to listen to a soundtrack in any language they want to. To say that "[l]anguage isn't supposed to be translated" is simply an expression of stubbornness on behalf of some intransigent idealized artistic notion (not to mention opposition to the employment status of millions of translators who rely on translating for a living around the world) and is as disagreeable as the notion that if a director intends I only watch a movie when he is present that I am somehow bound to that idiosyncracy.

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TMDaines
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#37 Post by TMDaines » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:25 pm

Tribe wrote:
TMDaines wrote:I just don't understand why you would ever want to hear anything other than the original. Any translation should be an aid to understanding the original speech/text - not a replacement. You can understand so much just through the visuals and the expression, tone and emotion of the human voice. Why would you want to replace this?
When did I say I wanted it replaced...or that I was somehow English-centric whose ears can't bear anything other than English? I have never, ever listened to an optional dub into English on any movie I own.

That's a fact, Jack.

Having said that, I don't find anything wrong at all with someone else wanting to listen to a soundtrack in any language they want to. To say that "[l]anguage isn't supposed to be translated" is simply an expression of stubbornness on behalf of some intransigent idealized artistic notion (not to mention opposition to the employment status of millions of translators who rely on translating for a living around the world) and is as disagreeable as the notion that if a director intends I only watch a movie when he is present that I am somehow bound to that idiosyncracy.
I was using "you" in the generic third-person sense and wasn't referring to YOU directly, so chill.

My "language isn't supposed to be translated" statement was absolutely nothing to do with an idealised artistic notion either (even though a translation of any art is always going to be a distortion of the original), but merely a statement from a linguistic perspective.

I am a linguist doing a degree in German and Italian, who inspires to be an interpreter one day - just so you know.

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Kirkinson
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Re: English Audio Tracks

#38 Post by Kirkinson » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:37 pm

TMDaines wrote:I just don't understand why you would ever want to hear anything other than the original. Any translation should be an aid to understanding the original speech/text - not a replacement. You can understand so much just through the visuals and the expression, tone and emotion of the human voice. Why would you want to replace this?
I agree with your reasoning, but I think you're underrating the educational value of having dubs as an option. No one here is talking about replacing the original language. It's just for curiosity's sake. Most directors didn't intend for their films to be packaged with a bunch of extra features and commentary, either -- the alternate language track would just be an extension of that.

To give an example, the first time I saw Godard's A Married Woman it was dubbed into English (this was on VHS before any of the DVDs had been produced). I have since seen it a couple of times in French and I don't miss having the English track around, and if I could have had access to it in French the first time I saw it I would have never actually chosen to watch it in English. But in retrospect, I think the experience was enlightening. Godard plays around with the dialogue tracks in his films in a way that I think is sometimes hindered by subtitles, since they give the audience a kind of clarity that the original sound track is intentionally setting out to undermine. I think it was valuable to the experience of his work as a whole to see at least one film where this was done in a language I didn't need translated. It also wasn't until I saw this film in English that I realized the presence of subtitles can sometimes interfere with Godard's own intertitles, since "reading" the film from the very beginning sort of prepares you for the interjection. If you're only listening to the dialogue instead of reading it, Godard's intertitles seem more jarring and outlandish when they appear (in a good way). Obviously an even better way to experience all of this is to actually learn French, but this is only an example of one way hearing a dub can be useful, and one can only learn so many languages.

Again, I'm not arguing that foreign films should always be watched dubbed, or that doing so will always be fruitful. I'm just saying that there can be value to having it as an option in certain situations. I also agree with Domino re: kids' films. I wouldn't want to withhold something as wonderful as My Neighbor Totoro from a small child who might adore it just because that child can't read fast enough to keep up with subtitles.

Also -- and this is an extreme case, but I don't want to ignore it -- I've met a couple of blind film students. Obviously, dubbed language tracks have a very different sort of value to them (although at least one of them liked hearing foreign films in the original language, too).

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Fred Holywell
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Re: 637 Purple Noon

#39 Post by Fred Holywell » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:08 am

To confirm what's already rather apparent, Mulvaney responded to my recent email inquiry on the "Purple Noon" English soundtrack situation, and that track is not included on the upcoming Blu-Ray or DVD. I had expressed my hope that Criterion would try to obtain as much extra and supplementary materials as possible (including alternate language tracks and commentaries) for their titles. But, according to M., the company is "presenting PURPLE NOON in it's orignal [sic] French language, with optional English subtitles". So, I guess that means I'll be holding onto my old Miramax disc.

It's not that the Eng dub is so good, or even historically important, but this film has so much action, and so much dialogue over the action, that I'm occasionally left wondering where to look. Call it a cop-out or a compromise, but when there's a half-way decent dub included, like the "PN" one, sometimes that's a pretty sensible way to go. And I've found that when watching foreign films with a mixed crowd of old, young, sharp and lazy, often an Eng dub is the only sane choice. It seems to keep more people happy more of the time, resulting in fewer fights about rewinding the scene, catching the dialogue, remembering where we left off, etc.

But this Criterion title isn't the only one to lose a previously available English soundtrack. I think "Belle de jour", as well as the upcoming redo of "Rashomon" suffer the same fate. Does it really take that much time, money and/or disc space to port over an already available second (or third) soundtrack, and add it to the new sound scheme?
Last edited by Fred Holywell on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 637 Purple Noon

#40 Post by skuhn8 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:00 am

I think the number of CC releases including a dub track can be counted on one hand, two hands at most. They tend to fall into the following categories:

--Multi-national productions where different tracks include the 'real voices'--but the only example I can recall is actually inclusion of a separate cut of the film for The Leopard where Burt Lancaster's original voice is featured. I believe there are truer examples, but can't recall now. Could be I'm thinking of MOC releases such as Rocco...

--Curio dub tracks such as for Contempt (Le Mepris), where the mish mash of different languages in the original make dubbing all the more dubious.

The inclusion of dub tracks isn't something that the CC is likely to pick up on as it dilutes the intentions of the filmmaker and the intended presentation of the film.

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Re: 637 Purple Noon

#41 Post by domino harvey » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:11 am

If you're having trouble keeping up with subtitles, the solution is not a dub. The solution is watching more films and reading faster via practice
Last edited by domino harvey on Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 637 Purple Noon

#42 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:16 am

And watch on a smaller screen so that your eyes don't always have to be bouncing around.

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Re: 637 Purple Noon

#43 Post by Fred Holywell » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:59 pm

I don't mean to come off as a fan of English dubs, because I'm not. I watch more subtitled films than English language ones, so subs for me aren't a problem. Other than an appreciation for the concerns of those who prefer an English soundtrack, my interest is mainly historical and in retaining something that had been, until recently, readily available. "Purple Noon" had an English dub on the oop Miramax disc. One might think that it could be easily ported over to the Criterion, not only for those who want to watch the film in English, but also as a curio of sorts, like Criterion's inclusion of a colorized scene on the "Fanfan la tulipe" disc. But perhaps the English soundtrack simply wasn't available, or cost more than Criterion wanted to pay, or they just didn't feel they needed it. I don't know, and Criterion isn't saying. They didn't pick up the English dub for their "Belle de jour" disc either, though it, too, had been on an oop Miramax DVD.

I don't think an alternate language track necessarily dilutes the intentions of a filmmaker or the intended presentation of a film. Especially in the 1950s and '60s, the heyday of international coproductions, a film's 'original' language could be open to some interpretation. For instance, "La Strada", an Italian movie, features two American lead actors (Quinn, Basehart), whose voices can only be heard on the English language track. "Rocco and His Brothers" is an Italian-French film with French actors in leading roles (Delon, Girardot). Their voices can only be heard on the French soundtrack. The same goes for "The Leopard", an Italian-French-American feature where Delon and Cardinale are heard only on the French version of the film. The list goes on... (And don't get me started on "The Damned"!)
Last edited by Fred Holywell on Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 637 Purple Noon

#44 Post by Fred Holywell » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:07 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:And watch on a smaller screen so that your eyes don't always have to be bouncing around.
True, but they do have to dart back-and-forth a bit.
Last edited by Fred Holywell on Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 637 Purple Noon

#45 Post by swo17 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:34 pm

domino harvey wrote:If you're having trouble keeping up with subtitles, the solution is not a dub. The solution is watching more films and reading faster via practice
Switching to the English dub actually is a good solution, since virtually every DVD of a foreign film has that option.

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knives
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Re: I think old people are being insulted...maybe...?

#46 Post by knives » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:26 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:Criterion seeks to release films with English language subtitles that are otherwise left in their original presentation form, with as little divergence as possible from this mission...Could Criterion be more considerate to the sight-impaired with their releases? Sure! But they'd be appeasing the lazy with that same step, which is something they don't want to do.
How is listening to an english dub lazy?

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Re: I think old people are being insulted...maybe...?

#47 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:30 pm

Because it substantially detracts from the performances on screen, which therefore detracts from appreciation of the director's original vision? It's not lazy for people who may need it for reasons that triodelover expressed, but it certainly is for those who just 'don't feel like reading'

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knives
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Re: I think old people are being insulted...maybe...?

#48 Post by knives » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:33 pm

I don't see how it detracts any more so than subtitles especially if care was given to the dub. I understand in cases like Renoir or Godard where they expressed preference to subtitles to go with that, but shouldn't the image be the main priority with subtitles becoming a larger intrusion on that?

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Cold Bishop
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Re: I think old people are being insulted...maybe...?

#49 Post by Cold Bishop » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:35 pm

If you're doing it right, the subtitles blend into the image.

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mfunk9786
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Re: I think old people are being insulted...maybe...?

#50 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:37 pm

Rather than waste my Friday evening on this, I'll just ask: You do realize you're being a major league contrarian on this point, right?

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