But that is still a different image from what a native speaker is viewing. If the dub is good it will be just like if you were a native speaker of the original language. It will blend into the film.Cold Bishop wrote:If you're doing it right, the subtitles blend into the image.
English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: I think old people are being insulted...maybe...?
- captveg
- Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:28 pm
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
The biggest problem with dubbing as compared to subtitles is that the dubs are often timed to coincide with syllable use, and therefore have "dumbed down" content as compared to the usually more literal subtitle translations.
- Cold Bishop
- Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 9:45 pm
- Location: Portland, OR
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
Except you don't. You're not hearing the original performances and you're certainly not hearing the original dialogue, not to mention all the discrepancies in soundtrack, folly work and sound design than can so easily happen. With subtitles, you get the original film, plus a little bonus. Despite claims to the contrary, they take nothing away from the film.
Listen, sometimes I wish dubbing was still a thing: I doubt the whole 60s foreign-film vogue would have ever happened without it.
Then again, I feel the same thing could be accomplished by making English subtitles mandatory for English-language films in theater and television. I'll occasionally turn on subtitles for English films, and
it seems to me the people I'm watching the film with are just as bothered as if they didn't understand the language. Perhaps that means the subtitles are indeed a nuisance, but I think it speaks more to the fact that you have to train your eyes to take in the subtitles as part of the image.
EDIT: what's with the weird line breaks?
Listen, sometimes I wish dubbing was still a thing: I doubt the whole 60s foreign-film vogue would have ever happened without it.
Then again, I feel the same thing could be accomplished by making English subtitles mandatory for English-language films in theater and television. I'll occasionally turn on subtitles for English films, and
it seems to me the people I'm watching the film with are just as bothered as if they didn't understand the language. Perhaps that means the subtitles are indeed a nuisance, but I think it speaks more to the fact that you have to train your eyes to take in the subtitles as part of the image.
EDIT: what's with the weird line breaks?
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
I think in a lot of ways I'm in agreement with you. For instance I have often put on subs for english language movies so it is not like I am attempting to argue that one form is superior to the other. Each has its own advantages and preference seems to be based on what got one into movies (without dubbed Godzilla and Argento films I would not be here today). I'll say it again, but I am exclusively talking about good dub jobs and not bad ones same as I assume you are talking about good sub jobs.
- mfunk9786
- Under Chris' Protection
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
I think one instance where dubbing is pretty much completely defensible is in (often Italian work of a certain era) films that are going to be dubbed either way.
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
I would say at the very least it's defensible in any situation where the dub track has major actors speaking their own parts, and certainly doubly so when the 'official' track has any actors dubbed over. And Criterion is pretty good about including actual alternate language versions of movies, like The Wanton Countess or the English language M.
- TMDaines
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
- Location: Stretford, Manchester
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
I'll never understand why someone people think the visual part of the film is all that counts and that the audio part is this some sort of interchangeable add-on, dependant on what language is desired, that had no vision or craft behind it in the first place - in otherwords, it's just a necessary evil. There's nothing worse than sitting through some awful, illogical, ham-fisted, dubbed track abroad, when the original track was multilingual and beautifully considered, because said country has laws against foreign audio tracks in cinemas or culturally is just a wasteland. The fact that we, in Britain, Ireland, America and elsewhere, choose to subtitle, rather than dub, on the whole, should be celebrated and shouldn't be taken for granted. Going to the cinema in other parts of the world is a joyless experience, where films are mutilated before being reconstructed for "easier" consumption.
And as someone has brought up Italian films, I'm using "dub" in the sense of a track prepared for a foreign market as opposed to merely post-synchronished sound. Just because some films may have post-synchronised audio, I don't see how their audio is any less vital or more interchangeable to the film. Sure, there are a lot of films that may have two or more valid options for their "original" audio, but I'm not dismissing that.
And as someone has brought up Italian films, I'm using "dub" in the sense of a track prepared for a foreign market as opposed to merely post-synchronished sound. Just because some films may have post-synchronised audio, I don't see how their audio is any less vital or more interchangeable to the film. Sure, there are a lot of films that may have two or more valid options for their "original" audio, but I'm not dismissing that.
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- Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:48 am
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
Both the DVD and Blu-Ray spec allow the inclusion of multiple tracks of audio and subtitles, allowing the same disc to be distributed to different language regions and, within the same region, to be appreciated by a myriad of viewers with their own linguistic preferences and abilities.
So it's odd that the participants in this discussion like to draw lines in the sand - if you prefer subtitles, the inclusion of an alternate audio track containing the English dub takes nothing away from you. (Yes, each added track of information does take up more space on the disc, leaving less to be accorded to other data such as the video track, but the data cost for a subtitle or audio track is negligible compared to video.)
Overall this is a fascinating subject for discussion, though perhaps exceeding the scope of what can be contained in an internet forum (Nabokov, anyone?). It's quite difficult to write about the subject without throwing quotes around quite heavily - when talking about the "original" audio of a post-dubbed Italian film, for example.
One thing I'd like to point out is the paradox of this statement: "Anything other than the original/intended audio track (or in some cases, tracks) is wrong in my opinion. Language isn't supposed to be translated, and when it is something is always lost in translation." So... the subtitles (implied, in contrast to viewing with a dub) aren't a translation? Or people shouldn't watch the film if they aren't fluent in its language...?
Another thread in the discussion is the assertion that the "dub" is of lesser quality than the "original" audio. The audio of a film is not of a piece but is isolated into stems (Music, Effects, Dialogue) so that the spoken dialogue can be isolated and replaced for different territories - in effect, as far as the production is concerned, it really is "an interchangeable add-on, dependant on what language is desired". And as an element, the amount of care given to the dub during post-production, and its overall quality relative to the "original" dialogue track, can vary enormously. Certainly, the Italians take great pride in their dubbing quality, and the audio tracks they produced for the US market were not slighted in comparison to those done for their domestic market. The English-language audio versions of Leone's Westerns or Argento's gialli are certainly not just a shadow of the Italian originals.
So the value of including an additional English audio track can vary significantly based on the actual quality of the track (either because it is well done, or done badly in an amusing or illustrative way). This factor supports including the dub on a case-by-case basis, though the field of evaluating a dub's "quality", like that of evaluating a film's quality in general, is quite subjective, with the added negative of not having established critical standards or much dialogue about what those would entail.
So it's odd that the participants in this discussion like to draw lines in the sand - if you prefer subtitles, the inclusion of an alternate audio track containing the English dub takes nothing away from you. (Yes, each added track of information does take up more space on the disc, leaving less to be accorded to other data such as the video track, but the data cost for a subtitle or audio track is negligible compared to video.)
Overall this is a fascinating subject for discussion, though perhaps exceeding the scope of what can be contained in an internet forum (Nabokov, anyone?). It's quite difficult to write about the subject without throwing quotes around quite heavily - when talking about the "original" audio of a post-dubbed Italian film, for example.
One thing I'd like to point out is the paradox of this statement: "Anything other than the original/intended audio track (or in some cases, tracks) is wrong in my opinion. Language isn't supposed to be translated, and when it is something is always lost in translation." So... the subtitles (implied, in contrast to viewing with a dub) aren't a translation? Or people shouldn't watch the film if they aren't fluent in its language...?
Another thread in the discussion is the assertion that the "dub" is of lesser quality than the "original" audio. The audio of a film is not of a piece but is isolated into stems (Music, Effects, Dialogue) so that the spoken dialogue can be isolated and replaced for different territories - in effect, as far as the production is concerned, it really is "an interchangeable add-on, dependant on what language is desired". And as an element, the amount of care given to the dub during post-production, and its overall quality relative to the "original" dialogue track, can vary enormously. Certainly, the Italians take great pride in their dubbing quality, and the audio tracks they produced for the US market were not slighted in comparison to those done for their domestic market. The English-language audio versions of Leone's Westerns or Argento's gialli are certainly not just a shadow of the Italian originals.
So the value of including an additional English audio track can vary significantly based on the actual quality of the track (either because it is well done, or done badly in an amusing or illustrative way). This factor supports including the dub on a case-by-case basis, though the field of evaluating a dub's "quality", like that of evaluating a film's quality in general, is quite subjective, with the added negative of not having established critical standards or much dialogue about what those would entail.
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- Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:48 am
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
Personally, I regret the lack of an English dub on "8 1/2", as it was actually quite well done and included dialogue that was normally passed over in subtitle translation. I encountered it via the 35mm print screened in our film class, and was quite surprised (and a little annoyed, until I gave the dub the benefit of the doubt) that an Italian print wasn't obtained, since it was regularly screened at revival houses with its Italian audio. If only one audio track could possibly be included, I would certainly choose the Italian, but with DVD and BD that's at least technically not the case.
Likewise, I have seen a film print of the English dub of Godard's "Weekend". That's an incredibly oddball track that I haven't seen turn up in any video edition.
The honor of the worst dub I have encountered (outside of American releases of Japanese films) goes to the English audio track included on the MGM DVD of "Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown", which has an absolutely terrible vocal performance of the lead role - as if someone gave her the spiked gazpacho before the recording session.
Likewise, I have seen a film print of the English dub of Godard's "Weekend". That's an incredibly oddball track that I haven't seen turn up in any video edition.
The honor of the worst dub I have encountered (outside of American releases of Japanese films) goes to the English audio track included on the MGM DVD of "Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown", which has an absolutely terrible vocal performance of the lead role - as if someone gave her the spiked gazpacho before the recording session.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
It's a good two decades since I last heard it, but I distinctly recall the English dub for Fellini's Roma being rather more satisfying than the Italian dub, on both a technical and performance level.
I later discovered that the Italian dub was a desperate rush job involving only a tiny handful of performers (including Fellini) carried out to an insane deadline for financial/distribution/premiere reasons, while the English dub had a much more generous schedule.
I later discovered that the Italian dub was a desperate rush job involving only a tiny handful of performers (including Fellini) carried out to an insane deadline for financial/distribution/premiere reasons, while the English dub had a much more generous schedule.
- TMDaines
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
- Location: Stretford, Manchester
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
The subtitles don't replace the audio, however. They merely act as an aid for people to understand it. A dub replaces the audio and hence anything that was lost in translation, is now truly lost. When you merely subtitle anything, nothing at all is lost. It's still there and the subtitles can be held up to scrutiny every single time the film is watched._shadow_ wrote:One thing I'd like to point out is the paradox of this statement: "Anything other than the original/intended audio track (or in some cases, tracks) is wrong in my opinion. Language isn't supposed to be translated, and when it is something is always lost in translation." So... the subtitles (implied, in contrast to viewing with a dub) aren't a translation? Or people shouldn't watch the film if they aren't fluent in its language...?
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
And they can also be replaced with superior alternatives.
A case in point: when I impulse-bought the UK version of the MGM Bergman box for a ludicrously low price - under a tenner for four discs - I was initially horrified to see that the only English subtitle option was a hard-of-hearing one, i.e. with sound effects etc. also highlighted. So I simply downloaded a different set (with Bergman titles, there were plenty to choose from), synced them up with Jubler and created a combined MP4 file with Handbrake - and corrected a few typos into the bargain.
A case in point: when I impulse-bought the UK version of the MGM Bergman box for a ludicrously low price - under a tenner for four discs - I was initially horrified to see that the only English subtitle option was a hard-of-hearing one, i.e. with sound effects etc. also highlighted. So I simply downloaded a different set (with Bergman titles, there were plenty to choose from), synced them up with Jubler and created a combined MP4 file with Handbrake - and corrected a few typos into the bargain.
- manicsounds
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:58 pm
- Location: Tokyo, Japan
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
Although it's a terrible track, "Rashomon" on Blu-ray retains the English dub included on the old DVD
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- Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 4:44 am
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
My dad finds it difficult to keep up with reading subtitles. There are so many amazing Criterion films which I am unable to show him because there is no English dubbing.
Criterion often include English subtitles for the hearing impaired, so why not English dubbing for the vision impaired. They'll be able to listen to the film.
Criterion often include English subtitles for the hearing impaired, so why not English dubbing for the vision impaired. They'll be able to listen to the film.
- Matt
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
Criterion strives to present the film as the director intended, but they do occasionally include English dubs as a curiosity when they are available. It would be an extraordinary expense to commission dubs for every foreign-language title and it would likely contravene the intentions of most of the filmmakers in the collection.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
A full dub for a film is very expensive proposition - and that's even if you're doing it badly - so there's no way any home video label would be undertaking something like that off their own bat. English dubs are really only an option for Criterion if they're already in existence from the film's original release, and since dubbing went out of favour with the arthouse crowd decades ago, they're likely to only be available for 'big' titles like Rashomon or Contempt. Another factor is that most of those films will have been distributed in subtitled versions for a long time, so elements for those original dub tracks may not be readily available or in good condition, even if they exist.
- movielocke
- Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
If Criterion does get to release Emigrants and A New Land, I would hope they'd include the original language as well as the rather excellent dubs. IIRC the films have different cuts for the original version and the US version. I would hope we'd get both of those as well. unrelated, but a good extra for The New Land would be the recent This American Life episode, Little War on the Prairie.
-
- Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 4:44 am
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
Im not suggesting Criterion create their own English dubs, but suggest they should be included on releases, where they exist.
They often do a great job in adding them to releases, but there are also occasions where they are left off.
For example, Australian DVD releases of 'Babettes Feast' & 'The Discreet charm of the Bourgeoisie', both contained English dubs.
They often do a great job in adding them to releases, but there are also occasions where they are left off.
For example, Australian DVD releases of 'Babettes Feast' & 'The Discreet charm of the Bourgeoisie', both contained English dubs.
- Dylan
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:28 pm
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
Has anybody ever seen The Umbrellas of Cherbourg with the English vocal track? That would be an amazing inclusion on a future release if somebody can track it down.
- Fred Holywell
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:45 pm
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
I haven't seen the English dubbed version of "Umbrellas", but understand it runs about five minutes shorter than the French one. Apparently, both soundtracks were issued on American LPs. And there's an English dubbed version of "Young Girls", too.
Which English dubs turn up on DVD can sometimes be mystifying. Criterion left one off their recent "Purple Noon" rerelease, though it was on the earlier Miramax DVD. And MGM chose to leave the English dub off their "Mademoiselle" disc, despite offering dubs on some of their other releases.
EDIT: Here's the thoughtful Jonathan Rosenbaum on the topic of dubbed-Demy:
Which English dubs turn up on DVD can sometimes be mystifying. Criterion left one off their recent "Purple Noon" rerelease, though it was on the earlier Miramax DVD. And MGM chose to leave the English dub off their "Mademoiselle" disc, despite offering dubs on some of their other releases.
EDIT: Here's the thoughtful Jonathan Rosenbaum on the topic of dubbed-Demy:
Maybe we're not missing so much, after all.There are English-dubbed versions of both Umbrellas and Young Girls; I haven’t seen the latter, but the English version of Umbrellas is so unrelievedly awful that I’m happy to have missed the dubbed Young Girls.
- Dylan
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:28 pm
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
The French Serie Noire Studio Canal DVD of Pierrot le fou (released in 2001) includes a spectacularly awful English dub where every line of dialogue is spoken as if the movie's characters were narrating a period educational documentary. Must be seen/heard to be believed.
It's hard to imagine Umbrellas in English, and I have to wonder if the lyrics in English were written to match up with the mouths of the actors originally singing in French as well as with Legrand's score. The fact that this version is a shorter edit does perhaps speak to why it hasn't been included on any release yet as an optional audio track. What would happen might be similar to Criterion's La Strada, where the English dub corresponds to a shorter cut of the film, resulting in the English dub only covering most of the film but not the entire thing. If the English Umbrellas is a different edit altogether and also inferior, then it would be a lot of extra work to include it & I can see some labels passing on that option. I for one would really like to see at the very least an excerpt of the film in English just for a frame of reference.
It's hard to imagine Umbrellas in English, and I have to wonder if the lyrics in English were written to match up with the mouths of the actors originally singing in French as well as with Legrand's score. The fact that this version is a shorter edit does perhaps speak to why it hasn't been included on any release yet as an optional audio track. What would happen might be similar to Criterion's La Strada, where the English dub corresponds to a shorter cut of the film, resulting in the English dub only covering most of the film but not the entire thing. If the English Umbrellas is a different edit altogether and also inferior, then it would be a lot of extra work to include it & I can see some labels passing on that option. I for one would really like to see at the very least an excerpt of the film in English just for a frame of reference.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
The English-dubbed version of The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie is so terrible as to be weirdly fascinating, but in no way is it a substitute for watching the film properly. In fact, I suspect the only reason I got any pleasure out of it at all was because I know the film so well.
Oh, and twenty years ago Electric Pictures, for whom I worked at the time, tried an experiment whereby they paid to have a French film dubbed into English to the same technical and performance standards as were routine with high-end French and Italian releases of English titles. The end result was surprisingly impressive, but it cost £100,000 - and that's in early-90s prices. And it flopped - British audiences just heard the word "dubbed" and instinctively switched off. (Tellingly, I remember the ancillary details but not the title of the film, although I think it was a French comedy starring and/or directed by Josiane Balasko.)
Oh, and twenty years ago Electric Pictures, for whom I worked at the time, tried an experiment whereby they paid to have a French film dubbed into English to the same technical and performance standards as were routine with high-end French and Italian releases of English titles. The end result was surprisingly impressive, but it cost £100,000 - and that's in early-90s prices. And it flopped - British audiences just heard the word "dubbed" and instinctively switched off. (Tellingly, I remember the ancillary details but not the title of the film, although I think it was a French comedy starring and/or directed by Josiane Balasko.)
- GaryC
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:56 pm
- Location: Aldershot, Hampshire, UK
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
Gazon maudit aka French Twist?MichaelB wrote:The English-dubbed version of The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie is so terrible as to be weirdly fascinating, but in no way is it a substitute for watching the film properly. In fact, I suspect the only reason I got any pleasure out of it at all was because I know the film so well.
Oh, and twenty years ago Electric Pictures, for whom I worked at the time, tried an experiment whereby they paid to have a French film dubbed into English to the same technical and performance standards as were routine with high-end French and Italian releases of English titles. The end result was surprisingly impressive, but it cost £100,000 - and that's in early-90s prices. And it flopped - British audiences just heard the word "dubbed" and instinctively switched off. (Tellingly, I remember the ancillary details but not the title of the film, although I think it was a French comedy starring and/or directed by Josiane Balasko.)
I did see that at the time, but only the French-language, English-subtitled version.
- Moe Dickstein
- Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:19 pm
Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
Rififi is the same situation, where the English dub doesn't cover the whole film due to cuts. It's very interesting to see where the film goes silent and know what had to be trimmed.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
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Re: English Dubbing/Version Inclusion on the DVD
That's the one - it's all coming back to me now. The idea was to release it in subtitled and dubbed versions and make it clear that the latter was the exact equivalent of a top-of-the-line French dub, which was an interesting notion in theory (like it or not, if a film is subtitled there is an absolute upper limit of people who'll be prepared to go and see it, and this was a mainstream comedy), but it would have needed a far bigger push than just the one film in order to overturn people's cultural expectations. The problem being that while the British don't like subtitles, they like dubbing even less!GaryC wrote:Gazon maudit aka French Twist?
I did see that at the time, but only the French-language, English-subtitled version.