Euphoria

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#76 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:22 pm

Episodes 6, 7, & 8
SpoilerShow
My wife has an interesting take on Jules, one that didn't occur to me, but she thinks Jules and Nate are similar characters. She found Jules to be selfish and self-involved, pursuing her own needs and whims in a way that ends up hurting those around her, tho' she fails to recognize it. She isn't consciously destructive like Nate, but but she shares his self-involvement. So it makes sense then why Nate is always so complimentary of Jules, singling out her ambitions and predicting she is going places. Nate sees something kindred there, and while it might on the surface seem like sexual attraction given his father's proclivities, it's just as easy to see it as narcissistic self-projection grounded on a couple accurate perceptions. I think there's something to this and look forward to the Jules special episode to get a closer look at the character.

I guess what leaves the most lasting impression in these last few episodes, the finale especially, is the way this show can work itself up into a great swirling crescendo of emotion in which contrasting states, extreme highs and lows, ecstasy and misery, all blend together somehow into a singular intense emotional experience. The effect is an overwhelming rush that comes close to shutting your brain off. It's impossible to process all at once. But the characters never get lost in all this. I don't know how a show this freewheeling can remain so grounded and focused on its characters. It never fails to locate them in their predicaments and emotions even as everything's rushing by, their pasts and presents colliding against each other. There's a huge amount of organization in the seeming chaos. A lot of real, lived experience here, and a lot of fantasia, too. And those things sit easily beside each other.

I gather this precise thing, the mixture of emotional realism and fantasia worked to a fever pitch is what puts a lot of people off. And I sympathize. The show is kinda ridiculous, over-loud, filled to bursting and unafraid to take risks, including the risk of getting in the way of its own authentically held emotions. But it worked for me. My wife remains ambivalent, but I come down on the side of liking it more than not. Not everything works, but that's less a comment on its grasp than on how much it's trying to do. It's overambitious, but the fundamentals are solid. Ultimately, these characters intrigued me. Happily, I have two special episodes and season 2 to head on to.
Thanks Never Cursed for giving me the reason to dive in. I'm just sad no one else wanted to encounter it for the first time along with me. If nothing else, it's way easier (and more fun) to write about single episodes when you have other people's reactions to build on and inspire you. But I do hope a couple more people decide to try the show out.

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Never Cursed
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Re: Euphoria

#77 Post by Never Cursed » Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:12 pm

Renewed for a third season

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#78 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:22 pm

Interesting comparison with Jules, though being self-involved to that degree is entirely developmentally-appropriate and I’d argue every single character shares that trait. Rue’s empathy to others is also sourced in her own intrinsic hypersensitivity- as is the case with empaths who often look for reciprocation in what they impulsively need to give; Maddy and Cassie are givers but their charities are rooted in a deep want to be selfishly loved and taken care of; and even Ali’s unconditional support is part of the ‘selfish’ aspect of AA where helping others helps you, which is openly-acknowledged on the group level. Lexi too will reveal her own version of this in season two. That’s not to say that this negates the value of action or that it’s fair to source everything back to some simplified version of selfishness- that’s not where I’m going with this counter-evaluation- but I’m not so sure I see how Jules and Nate are segregated from the other characters in this regard. Their own social contexts and life histories have perhaps necessitated a clearer break from attending to others to promote their own respective identities (in polar opposite directions: one in friction with his own inherent complexity he’s fearful of facing, towards conservative ideals of masculinity; and the other in friction with societal expectations of sexuality and towards that inner complexity; but both struggling with that externally-driven and internally-driven senses of self for sure).

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#79 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:48 pm

Yeah, every character in the show displays selfishness and self-involvement. I wasn't making a binary judgement between selfish and selfless characters, but discriminating among the kinds of selfishness on display. Not everyone is self-involved in the same way. For example, despite a lot of superficial similarities, there is a world of difference between Mckay and Nate. In contrast, despite seeming like the two characters with the least amount in common (Jules is fun, likeable, sympathetic, unable to hurt anyone deliberately; Nate is none of those things), Nate and Jules do kinda share a similar core, one Nate picks up on (part projection, but part accurate perception). Jules doesn't only chase the heedless whims of the moment; she's also driven by a deep internal sense of ambition, one she can only articulate in metaphysical terms, but one she prioritizes over any responsibility to those who are around her, including those she says she loves most. She adores her Dad, she adores Rue, she says, but she will also float away at a moment's notice to follow that driving thing in her, will pick up entirely new people in new cities and forge completely new intense relationships that consume her in the moment but can be equally relinquished--and she will leave unhappiness in her wake without perceiving that she's done anything wrong. She will leave behind what she feels holds her back, will hop from relationship to relationship leaving more of a mark on others than they leave on her. That's a lot like Nate. He's more practical and grounded about it, and deliberately cruel and destructive in ways Jules could never comprehend. But they share something unexpected. And I think that's interesting. I like that the show is willing to collocate it's most- and least- likeable characters in this and other ways.

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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#80 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:10 pm

Nice reading, and agreed- one of my favorite things to talk about personally and professionally is how selfishness is not rigidly "bad," but uniquely reflects strengths, resilience, needs, and can be the key to unlocking raw vulnerability in a therapeutic and spiritual light. Anyways, I hope more join the chorus of Never Cursed's ignition for Season One thoughts and analyses, but I've very much enjoyed being a bystander for your experience, and selfishly look forward to your continued journey with the series. I hope you post about the two specials and Season Two, which for me are all eclectically firing miles beyond what the first season offered.

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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#81 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:08 pm

I have to say, I do consider Nate to be an unambiguously bad person. Not because he is selfishness--all the characters are--but because his actions are so uniformly destructive and harmful. I can't think of a single person in the show who isn't worse off for having known Nate. Every life he comes into contact with, he makes objectively worse. He leaves a trail of destruction wherever he goes. He is horrifying, and the only character I can manage no sympathy for (I'm too busy giving it to everyone around him). But the show does test my limits on that. His confrontation with his dad in episode 8 brought me the closest I've come to feeling sorry for him--it was just tempered with fear, because, well, jesus... It reminds me of my feelings when reading Golding's Darkness Visible, one of whose characters is a vicious psychopath full of a horrifying otherness, and yet Golding lets you see the pain and neglect that went into shaping her, so much so that it almost compels sympathy amidst the repulsion.

Well, ok, Mouse is unambiguously bad, too, but we don't know anything about him (and that's probably a good thing).

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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#82 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:35 pm

My partner feels the same way about Nate, and although I can't fault her or your respective arguments for feeling that way, I've come around to finding him incredibly interesting to the point of finding a way in to sympathy. I think season two helps with that (as did three season one revisits, working extra hard to pay attention to his character in particular), though not to any universally discernible degree -my partner has been vocal that she feels no differently now than she did during season one, and I imagine other members here who watch the show may feel similarly.

It's funny, Never Cursed and I formed our initial bond in part over me writing off Nate both as a character and a person in my (very few) complaints about Euphoria based on first impressions via PM, after which he responded with a very thorough and thoughtful dissection of his characterization. It was so good, in fact, that it prompted me to rewatch the series, give it another chance, and while it took a solid year or so before I was able to warm up to Nate's character, I'm glad I put the effort into that task. I saved that PM and return to it every time I rewatch the show, or if I need reminders of Nate's value from a humanistic standpoint. Part of what makes this place so special to me is my reliance on active posters here to push me to see more peripherally, and I almost always get that experience if I am willing, so I hope Never Cursed drops by with a defense at some point down the line to perhaps plant a seed like he did for me (no pressure)! However, if a radical humanist like myself -who believes there are no "bad" people and that there is unconditional dignity and worth in every human being- couldn't find it in Nate, and needed to be coddled into taking my own advice and exercise that ethos to its limits, I can't fault anyone for putting their finite energy into "more deserving" characters. He definitely contains just about every quality that triggers me in a person, but that's part of what makes the venture so rewarding.

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Matt
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Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#83 Post by Matt » Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:35 am

Some things I’ve read in the past year got me thinking about the nature of evil and how it is an absence of good rather than its opposite, and I think that describes Nate pretty well (especially as his character is developed during Jules’ special and S2, but that’s a conversation for the other thread). He has been starved for good his entire life, and so it’s almost completely absent in him. I can have some sympathy towards him as a human being who has deeply unmet needs for approval and affection, but I’m still appalled by his actions, especially to those he claims to be closest with.

I wonder if he’s going to be a George Minafer and finally get his comeuppance, or if there will be some kind of redemption for him. It’s hard for me to see the latter happening, but I believe Sam Levinson fully capable of thinking of a way to pull it off.

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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#84 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:09 am

That's a good way of putting it, Matt, and I see that sympathy and repulsion as mutually exclusive attitudes that can be held together- much like how Fezco's life history/morality/good-naturedness does not negate his binary-devolution of 'business' actions or violence, and vice versa. I was talking with a group of friends tonight about Euphoria and were discussing the last episode (S2 E4) and everyone seemed to agree that an early comic scene
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where Nate is responding to Cassie's erratic and irrational behavior with amplified explosions of confusion
to be the first time we identify with him as he reacts right in step with the tone of the scene. I think this is a light, sly way of acclimating us to your last couple sentences, but much like our feelings towards him, I don't see why both comeuppance and redemption can't both be in his future. One often informs the other, or opens the doorway for the other to be possible to access at all. I mean, that's Rue's road too..

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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#85 Post by Sloper » Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:44 am

I’m also grateful for the incentive to watch this, and have really enjoyed binge-reading the comments in this thread. I’ve been drawn towards a lot of the same talking-points as others here, and have had similarly mixed reactions to the show. Overall, though, I liked it a lot, and can imagine I would get more out of it on a second viewing.

The cultural reference-point I couldn’t stop thinking about during this was Michaela Coel’s I May Destroy You (2020), which I strongly recommend to anyone who likes Euphoria. It’s very different in some obvious ways, and these are clues to why I happened to prefer it: it’s more analytical than emotive, trying to make you think more than it makes you feel, which is perhaps a symptom of the characters being 20-somethings rather than 17-year-olds; as a piece of film-making, it’s less flamboyant and more controlled; and it’s a lot funnier, because Coel has an amazing gift for comedy. None of these are meant as criticisms of Euphoria, by the way – they’re just a measure of the fact that the two shows are doing different things.

They also have a lot in common. When I first saw I May Destroy You, it felt like discovering something I didn’t know I’d been looking for. Coel is ferociously committed to the task of empathising with all her characters: she insisted that each actor see the story from their character’s point of view, and clearly wrote the script with this in mind. Given the extreme subject-matter she’s dealing with (primarily rape, but also a range of other issues) the results are genuinely uncomfortable and provocative, and not in a South-Park-ish ‘trying to offend everyone’ kind of a way, but because the show is really attempting to explore multiple perspectives through the medium of drama.

One of the reasons this works so well is that Coel’s intelligence and thoughtfulness (i.e. she’s a genius), and her sensitivity about the issues she explores (worth noting that she dedicated her Bafta award to the show’s intimacy coordinator), mean we are in ‘safe hands’ and can therefore delve into truly unsafe territory. Senseabove expressed it well in another thread:
senseabove wrote:[The show is] explicitly aware of the edges of contemporary "right" and "wrong," earnestly exploring how they dictate each other, and uncommonly willing to let characters exist entirely between them.
There are even moments when you worry about what the show is saying, and whether you agree with it, and there’s no easy way out of this anxiety because the show isn’t ‘telling’ you anything. Telling the audience what to think or how to feel isn’t necessarily a bad or reductive thing: it’s a necessary part of how most fiction works, and it’s a great pleasure to see it done well. But one of the most impressive things fiction can do is to leave things open, and give the audience the responsibility of figuring them out (or not), while still weaving a compelling and effective narrative.

This is especially impressive when the narrative in question is the kind we get in I May Destroy You or Euphoria (or another show the latter explicitly refers to, The Wire) – that is, one that uses a specific lens as a way of talking about ‘everything’, attempting to encompass more aspects of the human condition than a limited TV series can comfortably hold, to the point where you feel like no stone is being left unturned. If that means sacrificing some coherence and clarity, so much the better.

So anyway, this commitment to empathy and copiousness (qualities that go hand in hand) is what I really liked about Euphoria, and gave me something like that feeling of ‘thank god someone made a show like this’. The recent conversation about Nate is relevant here: horrifying as he is, I absolutely found myself empathising with him, primarily I think because of the show’s attention to detail. It is over-the-top and the cinematic pyrotechnics are overwhelming at times, but it mostly worked for me because when the camera does settle down and we get a good look at these people’s faces, we see amazingly talented actors giving totally authentic, detailed, nuanced performances.

Spoilers for the whole of Season 1:
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When Nate thrashes around on the floor in episode 8, this feels completely earned and convincing, and not in the least bit over-the-top, because we’ve spent the whole series watching Nate do this. It’s there in his eyes and his movements and the angles from which he’s filmed, and you can see all this going on even when he’s at his most cartoonishly evil (e.g. the scenes with Tyler).

To give another example: For the first few episodes, I found Jules frustratingly evasive, and wondered why the show wasn’t letting us get to know her better. Then she has her date with ‘Tyler’, and everything comes into focus – this was the sequence where I really felt the show ‘click’ for me.

You get some of the most beautiful images in the series when Jules is cycling through the orange groves, and then when she arrives in the park, and you feel all the heightened romance and excitement and anticipation she’s feeling. Then that scene between her and Nate is just a simply, effectively staged confrontation. There’s a moment when Nate uses his thumb to wipe away Jules’s tears, and it made me flinch and shudder. I’d been so well trained, by this point, to understand how Nate’s tenderness and sadism are mingled together, that I was watching his every gesture and movement like a hawk, waiting for him to veer back into outright abuse. And the emotional violence of what Nate then does to Jules is the pay-off to this.

The show has been unusually patient in setting both these characters up, and now we feel all those accumulated details weighing on this one moment, so we understand what Nate is doing and what it means to Jules. Staging the scene by the water, making us wonder whether Jules will step back (or be pushed) into it, is a really subtle way of adding just a shade more tension. The impact of seeing Jules left alone in that beautifully lit park, crouching down to process what has happened, is incredible, and again is complemented (and not overwhelmed) by the extravagant film-making.

The scene that follows, where Jules climbs into bed with Rue, was also very moving, although here I felt like the ‘orbiting around the bed’ effect was maybe a bit much. I’d say the same about parts of the carnival sequence, and Halloween party, where the show tries too hard to create a tour-de-force montage tying the different threads together. At the carnival, for instance, it felt a little artificial how we saw everyone making similarly questionable judgments or decisions at the same time, and the music seemed to over-sell the idea of ‘rising tension’ as things came to a head. I guess I found this a bit hackneyed, and a slight betrayal of what I like about the show: the fact, referred to earlier in this thread, that the characters are allowed to be individuals rather than cogs in an intricately constructed machine, and have the space to do unpredictable things. In a sequence like that (or at least some of it) the performances had less space to breathe, and I wished Levinson had taken a simpler, less heavily-scored approach.

Also, just to add to the praise for Zendaya in this thread: moments like her meltdown at Fezco’s door, or the reaction shots during her mother’s speech at the end, are also great examples of what I was talking about above. Take the moment in the church, when her mother gets to the end of her speech, and we see Rue’s left eyelid flicker – the kind of flicker you get when you’re sleep-deprived, but that could also mean a number of other things. I don’t know how an actor can fake something like that without it seeming fake, but it works here. And again, it means so much because it has so many details weighing on it, especially in that particular context. It’s a brilliant choice to show Rue’s mother at her most loving and affectionate (in the speech) and at her ugliest (in the flashback confrontation), and to hold both these moments back until the end of the season, and then just make us watch Rue as she sits there experiencing both moments simultaneously. Also a perfect moment to reveal why she wears that hoodie, making this revelation a rich and meaningful one rather than corny and trite (as it could easily have been).

Finally, I was as fascinated by the narration as Mr S., and it certainly plays into the show’s complex attitude towards empathy and communication. Not only does Rue provide information she has no way of knowing, she also seems to be commenting on the narrative in retrospect, as though from an older, wiser perspective that already knows everything that happened after this.

Perhaps I’m seeing this through my own biased lens, but I wondered if this had something to do with the (relatively underplayed) suggestion that Rue is a little bit neuro-diverse? Although her mother is obviously right that Rue is likable and makes friends easily, this also seems to gloss over the fact that Rue struggles to form deep relationships, or especially to maintain them. A lot of the time she seems worryingly detached from the people and events around her, which we’re clued into from the start by the fact that so many people are surprised she’s still alive (and don’t seem to care very much). And yet, in another sense, Rue seems suited to the role of omniscient narrator, because she has a capacity for observation and empathy – for noticing and understanding certain things, not just in ceiling tiles but also in people – and for reflecting critically on the potentially ‘unreliable’ nature of her own perspective. I don't have OCD or any of the other conditions Rue is said to be diagnosed with, so perhaps this is a mis-reading: but (without falling into the ‘neurodiverse superpower’ cliché) I guess a lot of the above chimes with my own experience of ASD, which added another layer of pathos to Rue’s narration.

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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#86 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Feb 05, 2022 1:22 pm

Interesting thoughts, and thanks for the rec- I May Destroy You was not on my radar - though I would strongly encourage you to push through into season two. The last two episodes have built to comedic heights entirely earned through the grave insanity of what's come before.
Sloper wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:44 am
SpoilerShow
I’d been so well trained, by this point, to understand how Nate’s tenderness and sadism are mingled together, that I was watching his every gesture and movement like a hawk, waiting for him to veer back into outright abuse. And the emotional violence of what Nate then does to Jules is the pay-off to this.
SpoilerShow
This is a great observation about Nate's blended reactions of affection and violence, and the more I watch the scene, the more I gravitate towards discerning Nate's genuine love for Jules somewhere in there- that which he cannot allow himself to actualize. It's more loudly a tragic scene for Jules- with tangible threats backing her into a corner, but it's subtly even more tragic for Nate. Jules can make palpable choices to respond to Nate's manipulations, which have clearly-defined consequences and opportunities for liberation, and move on; but Nate will always be trapped in a nebulous state of repression, unable to express how he actually feels and always setting himself up to be magnetized deeper into isolation (this is particularly tragic in one of the final lines of S2 E4). It's incredibly self-destructive masked at self-protection.
Sloper wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:44 am
SpoilerShow
The scene that follows, where Jules climbs into bed with Rue, was also very moving, although here I felt like the ‘orbiting around the bed’ effect was maybe a bit much. I’d say the same about parts of the carnival sequence, and Halloween party, where the show tries too hard to create a tour-de-force montage tying the different threads together. At the carnival, for instance, it felt a little artificial how we saw everyone making similarly questionable judgments or decisions at the same time, and the music seemed to over-sell the idea of ‘rising tension’ as things came to a head. I guess I found this a bit hackneyed, and a slight betrayal of what I like about the show: the fact, referred to earlier in this thread, that the characters are allowed to be individuals rather than cogs in an intricately constructed machine, and have the space to do unpredictable things. In a sequence like that (or at least some of it) the performances had less space to breathe, and I wished Levinson had taken a simpler, less heavily-scored approach.
I can appreciate the irritation with characters' trajectories lining up so perfectly and being externalized in thick aesthetics, but I think it works to service the thesis of the show, which is deliberately forcing us to notice a stout connective tissue between all of these characters in terms of how their own respective resiliences fall under a common denominator just as the unique sources of their problems do. The best way I can describe this commonality to to give my take on the series' title: “Euphoria” is ironic, but not in a Gen Z post-post-modernism “everything is ironic” way. Levinson is collecting these stories and realizing that the most earnest way to convey the respective narratives on an emotional level, true to the experiences he’s been relayed with a curious ear, is to extrapolate the Self-Medication Hypothesis of addiction towards their own individualized struggles; essentially declaring that people do not engage in self-destructive/harmful/risk-taking behaviors to achieve euphoria (though they often assert they are in a false narrative to distract from the painful truth), and are rather escaping from unbearable sensitivities to dysphoria. The sensationalized visuals juxtaposing the agony can be viewed as a fantastical assertion of vying for euphoria against the harsh reality of dysphoria pulsating underneath. So lining up all the characters with heavily-scored beats and showing them responding to their own momentary bouts with dysphoria in real time only amplifies my awareness that these are not so much the Big Events for each character conveniently occurring simultaneously, but instead that each of these characters struggles with subjectively Big Events all the time and so they do often line up!
SpoilerShow
It makes sense to me that, at a big social gathering like an annual carnival

-Kat, a girl with low self-esteem around romantic relationships, would notice a boy she likes talking to another girl from afar and react strongly towards her negative core belief that she is unlikable/unlovable by weaponizing her sexuality in a low-stakes, non-emotional interaction
-Maddy and Nate would get into a fight about how she's dressed/his anxiety over how he's perceived, and that she would react by doing drugs and cause a scene
-McKay would put on airs and deny he's in a relationship with Cassie to avoid toxic male jabbing, and Cassie would respond just like Maddy
-Rue's sister would go get high with peer pressure and Rue would need to find her
-Jules would run into someone she screwed and approach him out of a 'game' to impulsively prove her experience when challenged, without attending to the consequences of said actions
-Cal Jacobs would follow and cower to Jules rather than threaten her, distressed about what might happen to the life he's built

I didn't get the sense that all these instances were occurring at 'literally' the same time during the carnival, but just that they all happened there, which worked for me. All characters act impulsively to medicate violations to their feelings of self-worth through an easy method within their vicinity, and none of these felt outlandish or exaggerated.

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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#87 Post by RIP Film » Sun Feb 06, 2022 2:07 pm

SpoilerShow
I didn’t develop sympathy for Nate until around the episode where he was stamping around on the floor after Cal confronted him with some BS about being a leader on the football team. And this is upon reflection, but I get the feeling he knows he has a lot of potential, for being a decent person even, but his dad fucked up his wiring. That drawer full of disks with sex acts discreetly and unknowingly filmed seems to have influenced how he views people, almost as game, as things to be caught. The only relationships he allows are ones that can be controlled, so true intimacy is never on the table. The vicious cycle is that all his relationships just end up reflecting himself back to him, by way of his dominating will. The one exception is his on and off again girlfriend who doesn’t recognize boundaries, even after physical abuse. It’s telling that the one time Nate seems to be happy is when he’s pretending to be somebody else, during his texting with Jules.
To be clear, I don’t think bad behavior by a father necessarily has to rub off on the son in a destructive, imitational way; but the degree to which Cal seemed to be involved in Nate’s life, pushing him toward something, while also being not truly there, could certainly create that kind of unstable, self-reliant personality.

I finished season one last week after everybody wouldn’t stop talking about it. I’m not over the moon with it like some others, but it is engaging and relevant. I actually found the special episode Rue to be my favorite, stripped back of all the stylistic cartwheels and just focusing on two characters having a conversation. I think this episode distills the philosophy of show and what it’s trying to do, specifically with some of the things Ali says. But I also just have a thing for well-filmed talks, the journey of a conversation. In Treatment mastered this, the brilliant Locke with Tom Hardy alone in a car also comes to mind. After the whirlwind of the first season it was wise to approach it this way as a palette cleanser. I’d recommend watching it before season two.
Last edited by RIP Film on Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Matt
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Re: Euphoria

#88 Post by Matt » Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:44 pm

Zendaya going full De Niro in S2E5.
SpoilerShow
What a great literalization of the chaos a person in the throes of addiction brings into the lives of everyone around them (even total strangers just trying to have a birthday party in the backyard).

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Re: Euphoria

#89 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:21 am

Matt wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:44 pm
SpoilerShow
What a great literalization of the chaos a person in the throes of addiction brings into the lives of everyone around them (even total strangers just trying to have a birthday party in the backyard).
SpoilerShow
Yes, though the message seemed clearly balanced between the chaos thrust upon others and the chaos habitually, deterministically thrust upon oneself by the nature of the disease. I've never seen a sequence of 'low bottom' portrayed so perfectly, and while it may seem preposterous for some to believe, this is actually a very realistic episode. Good Time applied to an opiate addict bottoming out...

I'm pleased to report that I'm not the only person in recovery who thinks so, based on how many simultaneous text conversations I'm having right now with those who also identify with specific conversations and actions taken by Zendaya in tonight's hour. And yes, there are stories you hear in 12-step rooms that are even more outrageous, so any naysayers of its realism can just be thankful they've never been there!

I’m tempted to hyperbolically declare Zendaya to be our best working actor in her age demographic. I realize this is in large part because she portrays what is gratingly familiar to me to a T, but I continually find myself aghast at how she accomplishes a performance so spot-on without personal experience. I know it’s called acting, but these are unparalleled docu-levels of realistic behaviors, including so many nuances it would be impossible to describe for those who haven’t lived it.

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Re: Euphoria S01 (Sam Levinson et. al., 2019)

#90 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:09 pm

The spoiler free period has ended. All posts about Season 1 no longer need spoiler tags.

Comments about the two special episodes should remain spoiler tagged, and discussion of Season 2 go in the show’s dedicated thread.

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Re: Euphoria

#91 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Feb 14, 2022 1:16 am

I love how Sam Levinson calls out Cancel Culture repeatedly throughout his work in the spirit of Bryan Stevenson's take on humanism, and extrapolating the concept to our collective knee-jerk "reduction of a person to one moment" whether it be on social media or dubbing people "racists" etc using identity-first language. The connection to recovery communities and forgiveness is wonderful, and the metaphor pre-credits in tonight's episode with the jolly rancher says so much about evidenced-based support we get through people not closing doors and reducing us to dehumanized adjectives.

Levinson's broad strokes of comedy continue, finding less erratic rhythms in some dark, quiet, and powerful scenes, of which this episode is a collection- like a book of Raymond Carver short stories for the Z generation.
S2 E6Show
I think Nate might be the most compelling character on the show now- and major props to Levinson for refusing to pin him down throughout his shifty interactions and motives- they are all allowed to be true, he is allowed to be complex, and the idea that just because he would say and believe one thing and then become self-actualized and committed to that feeling is a joke, and one that Levinson refuses to coddle fantastically.

Rue's narration function has a couple interesting moments that flux from any clear focal point on its source of representation- with the 'fuck Jules' moment, but also: the explanation that Nate cares about taking over the business vs. his father's reputation becomes twisted... Is this what Nate has told himself, delusionally believing some unidimensional objective, until now? Because there's no way he expects his father to give him the business after leaving home and calling Nate his biggest regret. And the decision to hand it over to Jules directly challenges this ten-minutes-earlier narration as a standing psychological position. The fluidity by which the narration is evolving with these characters (or rather, the characters 'from' the narration) is fascinating. I loved the juxtaposition from the narration about Nate in episode two to this episode. It's partly tragic -with the episode's strongest scene between Nate and his mother, where she wonders aloud what broke his kind soul, filled in by him finding his dad's tapes at age 9-10 in that first season ep- but also optimistic, by allowing him to shift towards messily developing behaviors, some of which are genuinely sweet (while others are.. uh, even more deranged)... They haven't adjusted into anything concrete yet, and may never, but there's promise there, and it's reflected in his agility to move past the narration's faux-omniscient beats into his own grey space of adaptation.

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Never Cursed
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Re: Euphoria

#92 Post by Never Cursed » Mon Feb 21, 2022 3:38 am

Matt Zoller Seitz on S2E7, perhaps the first piece of film criticism I've ever read in which something is compared favorably with Rebel Without A Cause, but does not receive a full-throated recommendation

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Matt
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Re: Euphoria

#93 Post by Matt » Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:09 pm

Interesting piece which is neither a recap nor really a review. It brings up many “complaints” about the show as voiced by others (in a somewhat queasy-making ‘many people are saying’ manner) and says that those complaints are true without saying whether they’re valid or useful criticisms.

For example: “Among the many complaints lodged against Euphoria is that it’s lurid, an impractical portrait of youthful sexuality and drug use…” and…yes? Was it ever proposed that the show is a docudrama?

And “…that the whole thing is so overheated, narratively as well as visually, that watching the show can be as exhausting as one of Rue’s exculpatory monologues,” and…yes? Are we seriously criticizing a show for being too stimulating? For not fitting the “only the first and last episodes of a season can have any dramatic developments“ house style of streaming series?

I’ve already talked about how the aim of the show (aesthetically, narratively, etc) is to be “too much,” so it seems ungrateful, almost spiteful, to “complain” that a show is fully achieving its aims and that it’s not like any other show currently on TV. But MZS praises if for exactly that quality, too, so I end up not really knowing what he thinks of it.

I’m also very tired of extratextual references to Malcolm and Marie as if it’s some sort of story adjunct to Euphoria. It must really have pissed off a lot of critics who took it very personally and considered it a pointed, fully thought out essay film instead of a tossed-off, mostly improvised COVID lockdown project.

MZS seems to be using the Sarris definition of auteur instead of the Cahiers definition, because wasn’t Ray one of the main figures in the latter’s pantheon of auteurs? Anyway, it just seems funny to point to Ray as a filmmaker who is NOT part of “the auteur flicks Levinson lifts his moves from,” when it’s been obvious to me for a long time that Ray is one of the key influences. Maybe that’s wrong and maybe Levinson has only ever seen the Scorsese, Spielberg, and PTA movies he has explicitly referenced, but I seriously doubt it.

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Re: Euphoria

#94 Post by domino harvey » Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:14 pm

Sounds like journos have learned no new tricks since the MTV Skins outrage (and which was so neutered from the UK original that one hopes a warehouse of pearls to clutch are available if and when they get around to it)

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Matt
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Re: Euphoria

#95 Post by Matt » Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:28 pm

All of which is to say that I’m really hungry for good writing on Euphoria, writing which takes the show seriously on its own terms and not just treating it as a cultural object on which it’s necessary to have opinion, but not one based on anything more than “Yay, Zendaya” or “Boo, Sam Levinson.” Not saying MZS is doing that. I would like him to engage more deeply with the show than he has in this particular piece, but Vulture ain’t where that’s going to happen.

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Re: Euphoria

#96 Post by pianocrash » Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:04 pm

I'll have to add that any criticism of the show worth the time will probably have to wait until we are way past the current airdates (because, you know, perspective), but I only say that from a point of view that the emperor has no clothes (or maybe by then it'll be on a t-shirt so someone will read it).

Do I watch it every week? Absolutely. But after this season wraps up, I'm not sure I want to feel so drained and emptied eight Sundays out of the year pulling for characters that are so personality-free that even the most indulgent of scenarios seem absolutely pointless and, at their zenith and despite what all the fancy camera moves might try to tell you, conflict free.

I'd totally watch a Fezco & Co. spinoff show, though! Give that guy a show.

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Re: Euphoria

#97 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:54 pm

I don't think the "too much" summation is a fair one on its own, for its ambiguity could certainly ally with the critical complaints that the show is blanket-'unrealistic' (which I vehemently disagree with- particularly given that what some might consider the most absurd episode of this season- no. 5- is highly realistic if you've been in an AA room to hear some stories); or that Levinson is intentionally heightening the aesthetics to convey the overwhelming experience of being a youth today (which I do agree with) in the schema of a broader version of 'cancel culture' divorced from #metoo, where everyone is judged and alienated based on assumptions exponentially exacerbated by social media and the segregating platforms of the digital age, post-9/11 parenting, etc. There are elements of the show that are a bit like a docu-drama (i.e. many of Rue's addict episodes outside of the fantasy sequences used to explore her psychological turmoil/releases) as well as deliberately fantastical. So yeah, the show is a self-reflexive engagement with the youth feeling "a lot" at once, but it's not always "too much"- their resilience to cope with and even feed off of this overstimulation, at times reclaiming it with empowerment, should be considered too within a brief description of its ethos.

Assassination Nation really nailed this with a bifurcated narrative that blended that heightened aesthetic of experience with realistic scenarios a youth encounters in real time, balancing this effect until the film intentionally jumps the shark into fantastical space via genre-altering in its back half to emphasize the only path psychologically, and hypothetically realistically, available to its characters to escape the feeling of "too much." I might agree that Levinson's 2018 film could embrace that two-word phrase as its core focus, but Euphoria is a bit harder to pin down. It's more optimistic- with the same amount of empathy, but going to greater depths to find complex strengths and value in the crevices of the characters, and orbiting around hope and possibility. I have a feeling we're going to see more of these peripheral spiritual margins of positive opportunities for serenity and (dare I say) banal toned-down contentment of calm in season three- though it's not going to drop its overall wavelength of full-throttled intensity because... that's still the life these people are living and feeling, whether literally or in their bodies, minds, and souls.

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Matt
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Re: Euphoria

#98 Post by Matt » Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:05 am

I don’t think we disagree, we’re just talking about the same thing slightly differently. The show’s “overall wavelength of full-throttled intensity” is just about exactly what I mean when I say “too much.” I am not meaning it exactly and only literally (‘an intolerable surfeit’) but also in all of its multifarious slangier aspects (see also ‘dis tew much’). I’m calling back to some earlier comments I made about the show in this(?) thread, but I think I need to ‘be the change I want to see’ and write my thoughts out more carefully at some point.

I need to go back and read Bordwell on narrative (that ol’ fabula and syuzhet bit) and parametric narration, because I’m most interested in the dichotomy between the groundedness of the basic plots (addiction, infidelity, family dynamics) and the high-flying, phantasmogoric visual style and complex storytelling (narration) techniques. But instead I’m tapping out half-formed thoughts on an iPad in the late PM while my hungry cat howls at me.

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Re: Euphoria

#99 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:37 am

I figured as much- and I could probably tone down how many words I use to be more concise in how I read the show, no matter how complex it is! Speaking of, the latest episode is maybe the greatest yet (I know I keep saying this, but the show keeps besting itself)- There are so many layers to it, but the departure engages in a self-reflexivity of musicals and the show's aggressive strategy itself to utilize one artificial yet real narrative voice (itself an 'observer' and neglected participant vying for the spotlight) to sober each character to their own depths with objectivity (via, well, subjectivity). This is kind of like how the show works with its audience to give insights and validate its characters peripherally, for the audience to delve into spaces that character is not ready to (or hasn't been given the opportunity to) yet... so here that happens, but through a combination of artificiality and reality. Art with the power to enlighten but also be ridiculous through heightened theatrics- never more self-aware and hysterical than the final number, which made me laugh harder than anything in this season yet.

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Re: Euphoria

#100 Post by RIP Film » Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:53 am

I found it interesting that the play had an unrealistic budget for a high school production, as well as no adults or censorship; in the sense of it being a tacit acknowledgement of the world Euphoria takes places in, which is personal, relative and far away from objectivity. That’s to its credit I think, that it doesn’t even try to convince you this is some slice of reality, you can decide for yourself; and that the emotional landscapes of the characters colors every event, memory, interaction etc. “There is no truth. There is only perception.”

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