218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

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tenia
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#101 Post by tenia » Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:55 am

I admit I'm a bit jealous of people who got those checkdiscs (though I guess in this case, it was early enough that those only went to direct contributors to the release).

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: 218 Ishtar

#102 Post by yoloswegmaster » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:10 am

therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:45 pm
I'll be curious if MichaelB is able to weigh in at all, though I'm sure that'll come with its understandable limitations. This seems like a major flub, or else reflects some very unstable facets of the industry that makes me much less confidant about California Split ever materializing. I don't know why Indicator wouldn't be able to release a film they announced over a year before 'officially' announcing it, but I'm very curious to hear more about the compromises that were dealbreakers for each side. I share the frustrations around this cancelation, but if the Altman is in jeopardy due to a) legal issues, b) Indicator's rigidity, or c) a combination of Indicator/powerhouse's inability/difficulty navigating these legal issues, then it'd be cool to know what those are and what, if anything, can be done about moving the goalposts. This is certainly not making me very optimistic about the security of planned releases, but I'm in the "anger"/hysterical stage of grief (pedantic note: the five stages of grief are not clinically sound and often disproven in modern texts, though if/when they do occur, there is no set linear order or completion of said stages- that's just not how grief operates nor how Kübler-Ross intended them to be interpreted).
The daughter of writer/director Joseph Walsh confirmed on reddit that the blu-ray release for California Split is still in the works and that they are looking into the status of it.

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hearthesilence
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#103 Post by hearthesilence » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:04 am

FWIW, one of the Indicator extras can be heard here on Lincoln Center's Soundcloud account. It's not quite the same as they also splice in excerpts from the 1999 Chaplin Award Gala honoring Mike Nichols (hence the comments from Meryl Streep, Matthew Broderick, and Nora Ephron).

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Quote Perf Unquote
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#104 Post by Quote Perf Unquote » Mon Sep 05, 2022 7:31 pm

User over at Blu-ray.com posted this:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=264
As it looks like nobody has mentioned it, Indicator's release was cancelled because Sony told them at the last minute that no extras are allowed which make reference to Ishtar's reputation as a big turkey. Since basically all extras and the booklet dealt with the film's problematic history in some way, Indicator could only release a barebones edition and they didn't want to do that, hence cancellation. Although only Sony has been mentioned as giving the order, I find it hard to believe that the company would have such a trauma over the film, and if that was the case, you would think that they would have stated their requirement with the supplementary material right from the start. I suspect that Elaine May and/or Warren Beatty found out about the forthcoming release late in the process, after the official announcement, and then pressured Sony to give Indicator the ultimatum. Probably a few key individuals still feel sensitive about the film.
Don't know on what authority or reference they speak, no proof is provided

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#105 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Sep 05, 2022 8:23 pm

As others have mentioned, Beatty has intervened like this before, so he seems to be the likely culprit. Either way, it's not all that surprising, thought definitely frustrating

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Kracker
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#106 Post by Kracker » Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:08 am

"few key individuals", lol yea they can just say Beatty cockblocked it, its fine.

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Maltic
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#107 Post by Maltic » Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:43 am

It's almost kind of cute Beatty thinks a home video release still "matters" and isn't just a few thousand copies for people with a peculiar hobby.

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#108 Post by Quote Perf Unquote » Tue Sep 06, 2022 1:02 am

The Blu-ray.com poster's first line was so declarative and final, is what bothered me, like he has inside info or like there was ever an official announcement from Sony or the responsible parties. It's annoying when clowns post stuff like that as "information" without anything to back it up.

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pianocrash
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#109 Post by pianocrash » Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:41 am

Quote Perf Unquote wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 1:02 am
It's annoying when clowns post stuff like that as "information" without anything to back it up.
Fortunately, whenever I find myself in the presence of clowns, I always a carry a little bit of Shampoo.
Maltic wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:43 am
It's almost kind of cute Beatty thinks a home video release still "matters" and isn't just a few thousand copies for people with a peculiar hobby.
Unfortunately, for Mr. Beatty, Rules Don't Apply.

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MichaelB
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#110 Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:24 am

The first part, up to and including, "hence cancellation", is factually correct.

The rest is pure speculation that bears no resemblance to anything that I've heard.

The fact is that when licensing from a Hollywood major (as Sony is by no means unique in this), you often have to run this gauntlet - it's just that most of the time when they ask for changes to newly-commissioned extras (as is their contractual right), you just seethe inwardly and make them. It's got nothing to do with them being leant on by certain individuals: I know from extensive personal experience that their policy of not annoying (or potentially defaming) people with ongoing careers and reputations to protect is absolutely consistent. As demonstrated by the fact that they're usually a lot more relaxed about extras for films made by people who are long dead.

In other words, it's proactive legal arse-covering, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, in this case, once Sony made it clear that their proactive legal arse-covering extended to vetoing any acknowledgement of Ishtar's chequered career, it became clear that it was impossible to release the film as intended, as you can't rehabilitate its reputation without acknowledging why it needs rehabilitating. Hence cancellation.

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#111 Post by Calvin » Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:44 am

Interesting. I'm personally in the camp that feel like a release would still have been worthwhile and especially so if it could have included both cuts as the theatrical cut is now unavailable on disc anywhere. It's totally unavailable on disc in the UK so, while a compromised release would have been disappointing, it feels like the situation that we're now in where we have to import and only the director's cut is available is the worst of the possible outcomes.

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#112 Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:46 am

Since Ishtar is widely available in the UK via various streaming services, how would it have benefited Powerhouse to release a barebones equivalent without any of the curation and contextualising that their customers would normally expect to be an automatic part of the package?

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#113 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:16 am

It makes me wonder if something like Town & Country will be in a similar position given that film's enormous, Ishtar-dwarfing box office failure. Albeit that film does not have the infamous reputation (from strange title to bizarre premise) that Ishtar has to sustain its meme status, so appears to have been able to remain a bit more under the radar despite being a bigger flop.

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MichaelB
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#114 Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:32 am

If it's owned by a Hollywood major, Town & Country will be in exactly the same position as any other film owned by a Hollywood major: depending on their internal policies, they may or may not wish to exercise their contractual rights regarding approval of contextual materials.

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hearthesilence
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#115 Post by hearthesilence » Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:41 am

Michael, since at this point you have nothing to lose, if you were to reach out to the appropriate representatives for May, Beatty and Hoffman and at least see if they’d approve or endorse Indicator’s extras, would it move the needle if they granted their blessings? I’m sure May and Hoffman would. (No idea about Beatty as I’m only aware of the other two’s public comments on the film.)

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#116 Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:44 am

My only involvement with this release is as a freelancer, and my work on it finished on the day that it was cancelled.

I suspect Powerhouse has long since mentally moved on from this, just as they did with California Split and other cancelled projects that weren't ever publicly confirmed.

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#117 Post by Quote Perf Unquote » Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:00 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 5:24 am
In other words, it's proactive legal arse-covering, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, in this case, once Sony made it clear that their proactive legal arse-covering extended to vetoing any acknowledgement of Ishtar's chequered career, it became clear that it was impossible to release the film as intended, as you can't rehabilitate its reputation without acknowledging why it needs rehabilitating.
Curious similarities then with CC's release of "Heaven's Gate" which seemed to do all right without, as far as I remember, mentioning once that film's "bomb" status, and neglecting to include any of the numerous pieces written or docs produced about the issue, as extras.

It's a shame all around, the way May's films have been treated.

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#118 Post by cdnchris » Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:25 pm

If you didn't know Cimino's film's infamous past you'd probably come out of the Criterion features thinking the film only had a disappointing opening weekend. They really underplayed what happened with that film and it's a shame because they could have really gone all out in offering up a reassessment.

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#119 Post by beamish14 » Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:47 pm

cdnchris wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:25 pm
If you didn't know Cimino's film's infamous past you'd probably come out of the Criterion features thinking the film only had a disappointing opening weekend. They really underplayed what happened with that film and it's a shame because they could have really gone all out in offering up a reassessment.

Yep. I truly wish the documentary on the film that was produced by the short-lived American cable channel Trio could have been included. It has excellent interviews with Bridges and Kristofferson, and clips from a 1985 interview with Cimino

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#120 Post by Quote Perf Unquote » Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:16 pm

That's what puzzles me, because it seems that including these historical references, while thinking highly enough of the film to actually make a special edition, simply clarifies current day regard and love for the work. In all fields there are examples of work maligned or ignored that years later are heralded. Would Beatty, Sony, et al rather have the film forgotten than reassessed with more astute eyes? If nothing else, it would be a way to wring more lucre from the project.

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#121 Post by JamesF » Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:46 am

The standard line we get from most major studios is that "VAM", as they insist on referring to bonus features as (value added material), should "celebrate" and "promote" the work rather than focus on anything that might be viewed as negative, even if it's verifiably accurate and especially if there are any potential legal ramifications, however slight. The degree to which licensors enforce these rules is hardly consistent, not just from studio to studio but even just with the same studio sometimes, which can be tremendously frustrating. (It's no coincidence that the Hollywood major Arrow licenses from the most is the one with the most laissez-faire attitude towards bonus features!) Precedent counts for nothing, and ultimately you're usually compelled to take the path of least resistance in order to maintain a positive relationship with the licensor and keep on schedule. Hilariously, while one major studio has become much, much stricter than they were even just a couple of years ago, another one has finally given up on viewing every single extra submitted for approval and has just given us a set of guidelines to follow during production, counting on our own conscience when doing so.

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MichaelB
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#122 Post by MichaelB » Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:10 am

This absolutely tallies with my own experience too, and I suspect anyone else who works in this industry will be nodding in recognition.

The problem is often a philosophical one: we maintain that it's perfectly possible to celebrate and promote a film while also being honest about its chequered past, and Ishtar is a classic example. You have only to watch the Indicator extras and read the booklet to realise immediately that the contributors were fuelled by genuine love of the film and a fervent desire to help boost its reputation, but that counted for nothing against what turned out to be an unbudgeably rigid policy that the film's past was not to be mentioned under any circumstances.

Sometimes you can work around this - at about the same time, with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein (also a Sony title), my fellow commentator Johnny Mains and I knew upfront that we couldn't discuss its critical and commercial reception or mock the film or anybody connected with it, but fortunately we had the huge and ongoing topic of the film's relationship with the source novel, so could focus heavily on that and indeed quote as much as we liked from an unarguably public-domain text. In fact, being forced to focus on that made us ultimately concede that it's a more interesting adaptation than is often acknowledged - even the deviations from the text are arguably truer to Mary Shelley's ideas than are most other Frankenstein films.

But that's much harder to pull off with something like Heaven's Gate or Ishtar, whose disastrous reception is an overwhelming part of their story - it's a nettle that really has to be grasped in order to do them full justice.

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#123 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:12 am

That's what makes me respect those commentaries on The Matrix trilogy so much, where the Wachowskis seemingly fought to have the 'duelling commentaries' from the critics (who are brutally scathing about the sequels, though of course they mostly love the first film) and the philosophers (who are more positive throughout). Some of the comic zingers the critics throw out at the film's expense are amusingly brutal ("...I think they're whiter" is the one that always comes to mind about the extras in the Hel club scene in Revolutions!) but then there is that perhaps even more uncomfortably honest (but wonderful for exploring things in such depth) section during the end credits of Matrix Reloaded where the three critics try to figure out what exactly has 'gone wrong' with the series by that point.

In their liner notes the Wachowskis address how strange having people rip into their film might seem but that they wanted a conversation around the work. They also say that if they had the space on the disc/were allowed to they wanted two more tracks on there with critics who were generally more positive on the film and philosophers who were generally more negative on it too, so there would have been an even wider range of voices on there. More than anything the Wachowskis have done, just doing that made me respect them a lot for wanting to 'have a conversation' around the film rather than just celebrating it. OK, so they were doing so from the position of the first film being an unassailable classic of its genre and nothing critics might say having the power to affect the reception of the films by that stage of things, but I would find it hard to imagine anyone being able to have a frank discussion about, say, the Star Wars films on the actual discs themselves. That all has to take place online, for better or worse (maybe better, since it can be the one area where the 'amateur' has something that they can contribute due to simply not being beholden to contracts)
Last edited by colinr0380 on Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tenia
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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#124 Post by tenia » Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:20 am

I was thinking also about Matrix and those inclusions, wanting to have both kind of analysis (one on the material and the other one on the execution) and both kind of point of views. It's at least aknowledging there is a variety of appreciations and that they all can provide decent legitimate arguments to the conversation.

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Re: 218 Ishtar [release cancelled]

#125 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:27 am

I agree. After all, it is usually much better to at least have someone talk about your film, even if in not the most flattering terms, than to have it inspire no reaction from anyone at all! In the case of things like Ishtar the silence is deafening, though in some ways I would far prefer that than everyone having to be somewhat disingenuous in ignoring the big elephants in the room for other more minor but less 'controversial' avenues.

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