196 Jagged Edge

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colinr0380
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#26 Post by colinr0380 » Thu May 20, 2021 3:10 pm

It is also strange to think that I was ahead of the curve on this. I usually assume that I am coming to things months if not years after everyone who wanted to see something already has! I have never upgraded from my old VHS copy so am not sure if Jagged Edge never been released on disc prior to this?

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#27 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu May 20, 2021 3:41 pm

It has, my local lib has a DVD from Columbia listed as released in 2000

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domino harvey
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#28 Post by domino harvey » Thu May 20, 2021 3:46 pm

swo17 wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:56 pm
Knowing there is a plot point to spoil is itself a spoiler
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I would say (and have argued) there is nothing to spoil because the plot is so dumb that it's obvious whodunnit and the only twist is that there is no twist and they did do it
But like touching a plate when the waitress tells you it's hot, some people gotta figure this out for themselves no matter what warning they receive

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swo17
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#29 Post by swo17 » Thu May 20, 2021 3:53 pm

In case it wasn't clear, I was speaking generally. This is a plate I haven't touched yet, though I probably will after it's cooled off :P

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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#30 Post by cdnchris » Thu May 20, 2021 5:20 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 3:46 pm
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I would say (and have argued) there is nothing to spoil because the plot is so dumb that it's obvious whodunnit and the only twist is that there is no twist and they did do it
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Maybe all of this build-up will convince people there's some big twist, and when it's insanely obvious who the killer is (because it's really fucking obvious, to the point that Klute's killer is less obvious in comparison), they'll simply ignore their suspicions, because it's way obvious, only to be shocked when they find out it's who they figured it was!

That could be the twist in the end.

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knives
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#31 Post by knives » Thu May 20, 2021 6:49 pm

In concert with Dom I’d say it would probably be better for most to just watch that one episode of Harvey Birdman.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#32 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu May 20, 2021 7:44 pm

I mostly hated this. First, the acting is terrible. Bridges gives an all-around awful performance (his crying scene early on made me want to turn this off) and Close is more consistently painful, which is funny since I always assumed Paul Verhoeven had a greater role in bringing out the exaggerated outputs in the Eszterhas-scripted films, but his dialogue seems to poison good actors across the board (as domino mentioned, Loggia's Oscar nom is inexplicable). The difference is that Verhoeven issues greater strengths at formulating these scripts as culturally-reflexive satires on gender across austere ideological practices, in a manner that is both unapologetically absurd and moderated from ever revealing its hand of cards with an effable wink. Verhoeven lets his audience in on the joke but through playing everything straight and forcing us to acclimate to his peripheral wavelength of tilted engagement. Unfortunately Marquand plays everything equally straight, only without emphasizing details to elicit bolded intents of satire, and so as the paint-by-numbers narrative trolls on, it's only monotony that we experience rather than a secondary rush of commentary that scrutinizes our own fantasies and real behaviors, including what we expect from cinema, in an intertwined mash of guilt and pleasure. I'm just going to go watch Basic Instinct now that I'm in the mood as a nice palette-cleanser!

Also, I'm not the Realism Police when it comes to trashy neo-noirs, but when a lawyer asks a witness, "What were the circumstances around how you left your previous job?" and that witness doesn't understand the question just so the lawyer can assert that they were fired passionately, we're getting a bit too far into dreamland. What adult legitimately doesn't understand that question? The scene isn't played as self-aware either, it's just a subtle confusion and really lays transparent how Eszterhas understands human beings to be cardboard cutouts, though in fairness none of the objections in the courtroom have any grounds, and the public display of drama between lawyers is stupid even for a medium that doesn't take them seriously to begin with, so whatcha gonna do. It is pretty amusing though that Eszterhas wanted to make a film akin to Anatomy of a Murder, which is perhaps the most realistic courtroom film ever made!

I will give the film some credit (all Marquand and the editing team), that the last ~15 minutes did dial up the suspense in a deliberately pace that practiced appropriate restraint, and for that last act the film seemed worthy of De Palma's studious exhibitions of the old masters' form. I can't say the film is definitively worth seeing for the end, but the last act is a complete reversal from the lame camp we've seen before, transforming it into engrossing camp.

That is, until the "reveal"-
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I'm in agreement with everyone else that it was beyond stupid. I mean, there are no other credible suspects for a "twist" to even occur. The country club guy, Close's absent husband, Loggia, Coyote's prosecuting attorney, the female witnesses... nobody is set up to have competing evidence because every character is unidimensional, so the reveal of 'no surprise' falls flat. If the script made an effort to create shades to even one other principal, the end would carry some weight. The ending isn't irritating because it's mean-spirited to its audience (these kinds of thrillers can dangle red herrings, i.e. the corrupt Henry Styles case preceding these events, all they want- that's kinda their job) but because it reveals just how lazy it was to fail to give us any rationale to manipulate us towards. People buy tickets to these movies to be manipulated, so the least they could do was detail some corner of a character that graces us with their presence. This was like going on a rollercoaster that is unexpectedly a horizontal straightshot, then announces a countdown for a drop, and then delivers the drop right when the voice calls 0.

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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#33 Post by MichaelB » Fri May 21, 2021 7:31 am

One of the reasons why I was disappointed by Knives Out (at least given the second-coming hype) was
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because the film riffs on practically every Agatha Christie trope except the properly clever one that established her reputation - which is that pretty much every single character in one of her novels is legitimately a murder suspect, and for entirely credible and thoroughly thought-through reasons.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#34 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri May 21, 2021 8:11 am

That's a fair point, but there's definitely a middle ground
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or like I said, at least one moderately fleshed-out red herring to lend our suspicions to consider and make the mystery an actual mystery
For all its flaws, at least Knives Out was fun, and played right into exactly what one expects from that kind of movie- perhaps overindulgently, but better to overspice with manipulations than produce a bland dish that refuses to deliver the bare minimum of audience expectations for concocting the pillars of its own genre

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hearthesilence
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#35 Post by hearthesilence » Fri May 21, 2021 11:40 am

MichaelB wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:15 am
Yes, and people posting in this thread really shouldn't blithely assume that everyone's already seen it...
'Cause *I* haven't, so I hope jumping back to the beginning of this thread didn't spoil too much for me. Regardless, I like Jeff Bridges and Glenn Close, particularly their '80s work, so I'm looking forward to at least their performances.

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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#36 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri May 21, 2021 12:01 pm

I can't think of worse performances in each's career, and I too mostly like their 80s work

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Randall Maysin
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#37 Post by Randall Maysin » Fri May 21, 2021 7:41 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 12:01 pm
I can't think of worse performances in each's career, and I too mostly like their 80s work
Really? Let's hear more about that if you don't mind, I haven't seen it, but I know that the both of them are, in many if not most quarters, including by Pauline Kael, praised pretty highly for this film. Bridges in particular, its thought to be one of his rather numerous very best performances. To me it seems a little interesting that many reactions to the movie are "solid "respectable" genre film" when it sounds like it has a lot of things in common with Basic Instinct :D .

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domino harvey
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#38 Post by domino harvey » Fri May 21, 2021 7:42 pm

The fact that this film was held in high esteem in the 80s is proof that everyone was on coke and had no idea what was going on

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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#39 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri May 21, 2021 7:50 pm

Randall Maysin wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 7:41 pm
therewillbeblus wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 12:01 pm
I can't think of worse performances in each's career, and I too mostly like their 80s work
Really? Let's hear more about that if you don't mind, I haven't seen it, but I know that the both of them are, in many if not most quarters, including by Pauline Kael, praised pretty highly for this film. Bridges in particular, its thought to be one of his rather numerous very best performances. To me it seems a little interesting that many reactions to the movie are "solid "respectable" genre film" when it sounds like it has a lot of things in common with Basic Instinct :D .
I went into it a bit more in detail above, but you kinda have to see for yourself. Just wooden stuff. It's very much like Basic Instinct though without the necessary satirical posturing, and yeah I read the Kael review- she's usually an interesting read but she's got some opinions I definitely don't get in both the love and hate columns! Kael also adores De Palma, and while I agree on some of her readings there (i.e. her terrific review of Blow Out), I think she leans a bit far into his progressive genius that makes sense why she'd love this, since it's operating in a vein that at-times apes his suspense-tactics. Though that's really just the last ten minutes, which -save for the identity reveal- contain some solid filmmaking.

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Randall Maysin
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#40 Post by Randall Maysin » Fri May 21, 2021 7:52 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:44 pm
(as domino mentioned, Loggia's Oscar nom is inexplicable).
LOL I find that the movie decade i most often feel this about is the 80s! Especially 80s, uh, comedies! Comedies, except, where are the jokes? Where are the attempted jokes, in many of them? They're certianly perky and rhythmically edited! And enthusiastically scored! Tootsie for example. It isn't funny for a second. The only thing about it that is even a genuinely amusing idea is the throwaway one of the randy old actor on the TV soap having a thing for Dustin Hoffman in drag. Even Hoffman in drag by itself is not funny at all otherwise, as presented in this movie! And Baby Boom is much the same, although it wasn't painful at least and didn't have the weirdly callous emotional cruelty in Tootsie. And I thought Diane Keaton was gangbusters! LOL... and i DID also really enjoy the few minutes, 5 or so, where the movie eases into itself when Diane Keaton is being courted by Sam Shepard and is being bitchy to him.
Last edited by Randall Maysin on Sun May 23, 2021 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#41 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri May 21, 2021 8:13 pm

I don’t like Tootsie either, and agree that many of the pop-comedies are egregious, but scanning my working 80s list, many of my favorite comedies are from the decade (including the majority of my top ten)! Just not exactly the ones cast into the zeitgeist (save for Woody Allen, if he counts)

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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#42 Post by beamish14 » Sat May 22, 2021 12:02 am

Randall Maysin wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 7:52 pm
therewillbeblus wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:44 pm
(as domino mentioned, Loggia's Oscar nom is inexplicable).
LOL I find that the movie decade i most often feel this about is the 80s! Especially 80s, uh, comedies! Comedies, except, where are the jokes? Where are the attempted jokes, in many of them? They're certianly perky and rhythmically edited! And enthusiastically scored! Tootsie for example. It isn't funny for a second. The only thing about it that is even a genuinely amusing idea is the throwaway one of the randy old actor on the TV soap having a thing for Dustin Hoffman in drag. Even Hoffman in drag by itself is not funny at all otherwise, as presented in this movie! And Baby Boom is much the same, although it wasn't painful at least and didn't have the weirdly callous emotional cruelty in Tootsie. And I thought Diane Keaton was gangbusters! LOL... and i DID really enjoy the few minutes, 5 or so, where the movie eases into itself when Diane Keaton is being courted by Sam Shepard and is being bitchy to him.

I felt like I was losing my mind when I watched Beverly Hills Cop many years after its initial release; THIS piece of shit is still, without being adjusted for inflation, one of the most profitable and widely-seen American comedies ever, and it netted an Oscar nom for writing?

Sydney Pollack was generally a hack. The Yakuza shows a total inability to understand the material he was given, his work with Robert Redford shows little bite, and the stretch of films he made from Havana through The Interpreter is outright appalling. I do like Absence of Malice for the most part, though, particularly Bob Balaban's middle management, rubberband-fingering villain.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#43 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat May 22, 2021 12:09 am

I like Beverly Hills Cop, it's a lot of fun. And as far as Pollack goes, well he really jumped the shark by the 80s, but They Shoot Horses, Don't They? is a totally sincere masterpiece that should be considered for everyone's 60s list. I also like The Yakuza, Castle Keep and Three Days of the Condor.

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Pavel
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#44 Post by Pavel » Sat May 22, 2021 4:30 am

The Screenplay nom for Beverly Hills Cop is one of my favorite Academy choices. Come to think of it, the Screenplay categories were usually home to some of the more fun and creative noms, at least pre-2000s. Four Alain Resnais films got in, but so did, say, Back to the Future.

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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#45 Post by MichaelB » Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:39 am

Final specs:

Image

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MichaelB
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#46 Post by MichaelB » Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:35 pm


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Finch
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Re: 196 Jagged Edge

#47 Post by Finch » Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:33 pm

I didn't realise Lance Henriksen was in this until the Beaver caps. (In my defense, I've seen the film over at least 25 years ago)

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