191 Eve

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The Pachyderminator
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Re: 191 Eve

#26 Post by The Pachyderminator » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:50 pm

TMDaines wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:21 am
The Pachyderminator wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 am
TMDaines wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:53 am
This'll be a pain in the arse to navigate on a PC without menus and with Sony DADC generating tons of fake playlists!
(FWIW, I just started buying Indicator discs and I've already come to appreciate how logically the menus are laid out, extras clearly labeled on the packaging, etc. They're very nicely designed products.)
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. Indicator's Blu-rays are of the highest class and it looks like Michael and his team have gone above and beyond to make this absolutely definitive.
I'm still curious, though, why you're seeing fake playlists, when none appear in MakeMKV for any of the Indicator discs I own. Maybe it's a DVDFab issue?

ethel
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Re: 191 Eve

#27 Post by ethel » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:29 am

Looking forward to this release. Joseph Losey's profile seems to have receded in the years since his death, and even during his lifetime he had powerful critical detractors such as Pauline Kael and David Thomson. I believe his work includes substantial and fascinating films at each stage of his career, as well as experiments and honourable misfires which have their own interest for followers. I've never understood why some viewers become agitated and distressed in discussing his work, when he had to fight for the many original and challenging projects he believed in.

EVE is particularly interesting - the baroque photography of Venice and Rome by Gianni Di Venanzo is in every way the equal of his work on 8 1/2 and Juilet of the Spirits, let alone his work for Antonioni and Rosi. If you can't abide the looped dialogue or the music, turn off the sound and watch the staggering images.

I too have never "got" Stanley Baker - his appeal is as mysterious to me as that of the inexpressive sphinxes of a later era such as Robert Redford and Harrison Ford. No such problem with la Moreau, but I understand she too is not for everyone. (Baker is most convincing as a coal miner, however, even appearing in a TV adaptation of HOW GREEN WAS MY VALLEY near the end of his career.)

The matter of the running times of the pre-release versions of EVE have long intrigued me. The Finnish/Swedish subtitled version (now called the Long Version) appeared on the Kino release in its unrestored state, looking washed out and with burnt-in subs, but still exciting - and with 13 minutes more picture material. Tom Milne's 1967 Losey interview book claims the first cut ran 155 min; Michel Ciment's interview book with Losey of ten years later gave the first cut as 168 mins. (The precision of the number could almost convince.)

Milne says Losey's next cut was 135 min; Ciment says ca.150 min.; David Caute, in his scorching biography of Losey, says 155 min, then further shortened to 135 min.

Then the Hakims got to work, producing cuts of 116 min (but without the casino scene with its glimpse of Peggy Guggenheim) (Caute); then 100 min (Milne). Caute mentions a 100 min cut with the casino scene back in, requiring other cuts.

Losey mentioned to Ciment a cut of 130 min before Virna Lisi's vocal performance, already dubbed by an Italian actress, was replaced by an American actress. As well, the whole soundtrack was remixed, including the score by Michel Legrand. Losey confirmed in April 1966 that the Long Version has the original audio mix.

The European and US premiere lengths ranged from 111 to 116 mins (Milne). The Kino run times were 103 (release version), and 119 (long version). This new Indicator release lists both versions as around 6 or 7 minutes longer than the previous release, to add to EVE's tangled history. There would appear to be between 15 and 30 minutes removed after Losey's last cut.

The long version includes eight shortened or eliminated scenes, including a couple of elaborate long takes and the mysterious shot inserted near the very end. Indicator states the long version has been sourced from another unsubtitled copy and restored.

Loseyophiles are primed for this one. Others, AYOR.

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MichaelB
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Re: 191 Eve

#28 Post by MichaelB » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:50 am

It’s obviously impossible to be precise about the running times of the two never-released Losey-approved cuts of Eve, but most sources say 155 mins for the first cut and 135 mins for the second cut - and I'm more inclined to agree with 1960s reports (James Leahy) than later ones (Michel Ciment), as Losey's memory would have been more accurate nearer the time that he actually made the film.

With versions that were actually released, we can be reasonably sure that the European Eva was 109 mins and the US The Devil’s Woman was 108 mins (the Kino release was standards-converted from a PAL source, hence the running-time discrepancy). Those two versions are both on the Indicator release, with Eva sporting the extensive almost all-English redub to which Losey took strong exception (mainly because Virna Lisi, Giorgio Albertazzi and others were completely revoiced by others). By contrast, we've offered optional subtitles to translate quite a bit of Italian dialogue in The Devil's Woman and Eve. (Incidentally, it seems very likely that Losey was aiming for linguistic authenticity here, as only Italian characters played by Italian actors actually speak Italian - for instance, this isn't a Deep Red-style situation where parts of the film lapse into Italian because no English version was ever recorded.)

The “Scandinavian” print (actually Finnish, but Losey didn’t want to specify the country in case he got the distributors into trouble) ran 119 minutes, but is missing quite a few scenes/parts of scenes that Losey confirmed were definitely in his cut and which are in either Eva, The Devil’s Woman, or both. These were reinstated in the Eye Filmmuseum restoration, which runs just short of 126 minutes, but improves on the Finnish print in quite a few other ways, not least the elimination of most of the burned-in subtitles (these remain over just two scenes, for which the Finnish print was the only source). 



However, the Eye version is missing what we believe to be a fairly crucial final encounter between Tyvian (Stanley Baker) and Branco (Albertazzi) that uniquely confirms that most of the film’s action takes place in flashback from two years earlier, and it’s also the culmination of a series of doubled scenes involving Tyvian/Branco and McCormick/Annamaria. The restoration team said that they were aware of this scene but could find no evidence that it was in Losey’s cut, so they left it out - but we felt that there was a pretty strong case for including it, and have duly offered it as a viewing option. (One slight complication is that the soundtrack of this scene only seems to survive as the awful dubbed version featured in Eva, so Albertazzi’s voice will suddenly change at the end of this cut just for his final scene, but it was either that or nothing.)



We reckon that this version falls about nine or ten minutes short of Losey’s second cut - but short of a frankly implausible discovery of the missing footage (it’s assumed that the Hakim brothers destroyed the negative offcuts, very possibly to prevent Losey from reconstituting his preferred version), that’s the best we’re going to be able to manage for now.

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MichaelB
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Re: 191 Eve

#29 Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:29 am

Final specs:

Image

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MichaelB
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Re: 191 Eve

#30 Post by MichaelB » Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:41 pm

Beaver:
Indicator have gone above and beyond (again!) with this incredible Blu-ray edition. It is recommended for more than Losey fans. It is going to be one of the best 'packages of 2020' voted in our Year End Poll. Indicator are doing the best work out there. This is a cinephile must-own.

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MichaelB
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Re: 191 Eve

#31 Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:14 am


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MichaelB
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Re: 191 Eve

#32 Post by MichaelB » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:20 am

A typically exhaustive review from CineOutsider.

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domino harvey
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Re: 191 Eve

#33 Post by domino harvey » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:57 am

MichaelB wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:44 am

The 126-minute version isn't complete - Losey's first cut was 155 minutes, and the last cut that he personally signed off on ran 135 - but it appears to be the longest version that can be assembled from surviving materials. Unfortunately, neither of the longer cuts ever had any kind of commercial release, and although a print of the 135-minute survived, by the time it was donated to the BFI National Archive (by Losey himself) it had lost 15 minutes for unspecified reasons.
I found this beautiful to look at but rather empty and repetitive-- the basic plot (braggart is emasculated by unattainable woman, continues to be so for length of film) could be tackled in five minutes, and I'm not sure the film has any ideas beyond Losey's typical fascination with gazes. Moreau is by design unknowable here and Baker does his usual thing plus a few emotional outbursts that struck me as out of his range, so not much depth to be gained by spending a lot of time with these two. My mind reels at another thirty minutes of this-- I wonder if the lack of a more pressing narrative allowed for this kind of untethered wandering to get out of control when filming?

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tolbs1010
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Re: 191 Eve

#34 Post by tolbs1010 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:17 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:57 am
MichaelB wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:44 am

The 126-minute version isn't complete - Losey's first cut was 155 minutes, and the last cut that he personally signed off on ran 135 - but it appears to be the longest version that can be assembled from surviving materials. Unfortunately, neither of the longer cuts ever had any kind of commercial release, and although a print of the 135-minute survived, by the time it was donated to the BFI National Archive (by Losey himself) it had lost 15 minutes for unspecified reasons.
I found this beautiful to look at but rather empty and repetitive-- the basic plot (braggart is emasculated by unattainable woman, continues to be so for length of film) could be tackled in five minutes, and I'm not sure the film has any ideas beyond Losey's typical fascination with gazes. Moreau is by design unknowable here and Baker does his usual thing plus a few emotional outbursts that struck me as out of his range, so not much depth to be gained by spending a lot of time with these two. My mind reels at another thirty minutes of this-- I wonder if the lack of a more pressing narrative allowed for this kind of untethered wandering to get out of control when filming?
I understand this take. Though I am a big fan of this film, it's a tough sell for most audiences. Losey often worked with less-than-stellar material, and Eve is no exception. The script/story IS repetitive and empty and it's adapted from a trash novel. BUT, I think Losey's Mise-en-Scene (including the almost-comical number of metaphorical sexual images), Gianni Di Venanzo's amazing cinematography, Michel Legrand's music and the rhythmic film editing that accompanies it, and the performances more than compensate for the lack of plot and depth.

Stanley Baker was never better. He was a somewhat limited actor, but here he dives in to Losey's penchant for masochism and self-loathing very effectively. He doesn't shrink from the pathetic, unlikable fraud that is his character and the fact that it subverts his typical screen persona. I think it's a rather brave performance. Losey probably indulges Moreau a little too much, but she's perfect for the role. There are images of her in this film that stack up against any of her more well-known iconic roles.

A feast for Losey fans. A somewhat-tedious curio for general classic film fans. A total bore for general audiences. These tags probably apply to most of Losey's oeuvre.

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CSM126
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Re: 191 Eve

#35 Post by CSM126 » Thu Aug 31, 2023 2:15 pm

Is anyone else’s copy of this just obscenely loud or did I get a wonky disc? Fired up the long cut and it’s deafening, even with my speakers turned down to the lowest possible volume. Also seems a bit distorted on the high end, but that could be a source issue for all I know. Whoever mixed this audio must be hard of hearing or something.

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tolbs1010
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Re: 191 Eve

#36 Post by tolbs1010 » Fri Sep 01, 2023 4:56 pm

I popped in my copy after seeing your comment and watched most of the extended cut. Doesn't sound overtly loud to me, though maybe a bit tinny in the higher registers (the trumpets in Legrand's score especially). Dialogue and sound design are remarkably clear given the age of the source material.

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ChunkyLover
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Re: 191 Eve

#37 Post by ChunkyLover » Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:36 pm

CSM126 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 2:15 pm
Is anyone else’s copy of this just obscenely loud or did I get a wonky disc? Fired up the long cut and it’s deafening, even with my speakers turned down to the lowest possible volume. Also seems a bit distorted on the high end, but that could be a source issue for all I know. Whoever mixed this audio must be hard of hearing or something.
For the all the praise they get, Fidelity-in-Motion authored discs are consistently terrible with their audio mastering. Many of their discs, across various labels, have clipping/loud audio tracks.

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CSM126
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Re: 191 Eve

#38 Post by CSM126 » Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:45 pm

ChunkyLover wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:36 pm
CSM126 wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 2:15 pm
Is anyone else’s copy of this just obscenely loud or did I get a wonky disc? Fired up the long cut and it’s deafening, even with my speakers turned down to the lowest possible volume. Also seems a bit distorted on the high end, but that could be a source issue for all I know. Whoever mixed this audio must be hard of hearing or something.
For the all the praise they get, Fidelity-in-Motion authored discs are consistently terrible with their audio mastering. Many of their discs, across various labels, have clipping/loud audio tracks.
Someone said a similar thing when I mentioned the ear-shattering volume of the commentaries on the Ormond family set, so at least it isn’t just me I guess. It’s kind of amazing that this stuff gets past QC. I know it’s not my system because hundreds of other discs don’t do this.

It wound up not being the end of the world because this movie is ponderous and I gave up after an hour. EVE is my fifth Losey film and the first one I didn’t like. Then again I also don’t like Jeanne Moreau, so that didn’t help. Losey’s THE DAMNED is next on my kevyip and I hope that’s at least a little more entertaining.

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