Killers of the Flower Moon (Martin Scorsese, 2023)

[Matt]

This is now available to buy or rent on VOD

[jbeall]

This is now available to buy or rent on VOD

Also streaming on Apple+.

[hearthesilence]

I just revisited Jean Renoir's The Golden Coach on Raro's Blu-ray (which looks gorgeous and on my display a bit more naturalistic than DVDBeaver's caps which seem a little yellow). I completely forgot that Scorsese recorded an intro for Criterion's DVD reissue as it wasn't licensed for the Raro Blu-ray. I bring it up because I remember Scorsese mentioning the film's famous ending, which had to be restored (and FYI it looks great on the Blu-ray with none of the strange problems that plagued the Criterion DVD). I wonder if Scorsese had it in mind when he came up with the ending of Killer of the Flower Moon? Not in the sense that he wanted to serve the same exact idea - the films are too dissimilar - but perhaps in wishing to address cultural barriers inherent in one's perspective, maybe Renoir's film gave him the idea that an ending with a modernist staging would be the answer?

[hearthesilence]

Apparently a ridiculous rumor came out in February 2024 that Paul Thomas Anderson secretly rewrote and completely overhauled the script for Killers of the Flower Moon. I completely missed that until today when a regurgitated podcast video popped up on my social media feed and some asshat made that argument with a ton of misinformation presented as fact - for example, he claimed Eric Roth confirmed this which is complete bullshit. Such is the times we're living in...

[Never Cursed]

Apparently a ridiculous rumor came out in February 2024 that Paul Thomas Anderson secretly rewrote and completely overhauled the script for Killers of the Flower Moon. I completely missed that until today when a regurgitated podcast video popped up on my social media feed and some asshat made that argument with a ton of misinformation presented as fact - for example, he claimed Eric Roth confirmed this which is complete bullshit. Such is the times we're living in...

Not saying this claim is itself true, but he's done this elsewhere (most recently for Ridley Scott's Napoleon, which Joaquin Phoenix threatened to quit unless PTA was brought on as a script doctor)

[beamish14]

Apparently a ridiculous rumor came out in February 2024 that Paul Thomas Anderson secretly rewrote and completely overhauled the script for Killers of the Flower Moon. I completely missed that until today when a regurgitated podcast video popped up on my social media feed and some asshat made that argument with a ton of misinformation presented as fact - for example, he claimed Eric Roth confirmed this which is complete bullshit. Such is the times we're living in...

Not saying this claim is itself true, but he's done this elsewhere (most recently for Ridley Scott's Napoleon, which Joaquin Phoenix threatened to quit unless PTA was brought on as a script doctor)

I wonder how many other big writer-directors today still do doctoring/punch-up work for films they have no intention of directing

I was at a screening where David O. Russell and Alexander Payne playfully discussed their contributions to the Meet the Parents franchise. Payne and his writing partner do get credit on schlock they contribute to, such as Jurassic Park III.

Noah Baumbach has writing credits on Mr. Popper’s Penguins and Madagascar 3

[hearthesilence]

Kenneth Lonergan does. He mentioned it at a post-screening discussion he held after Dodsworth (the William Wyler film) and I remember him emphasizing that it's actually how he makes a lot of his income when people snickered.

Re: Killers of the Flower Moon, I dug a little more and Roth's son Alec Roth (a filmmaker himself) responded on social media when the rumor hit, saying it was completely untrue and that the post he was responding to should be deleted.

[The Curious Sofa]

I'd honestly rather have one more $10 million Kenneth Lonergan movie than ten more $200 million movies by Martin Scorsese (or Ridley Scott).

[erok910]

Eric Roth absolutely did not deny Paul Thomas Anderson involvement. Big fan of Eric Roth's work, last thing I listened to was him specifically not saying that he was sole writer. He leaned into: whatever he did I'm sure was helpful, sort of speak. I can find the interview, I just wanted to mention that. He doesn't show up on many podcasts, so it's not hard to find but it may have been for Here.

Also, when looking at the book and (one of the first) drafts, you can see the film and awards consideration draft being pretty distant from each other. The interviews say as much as well. It seems Eric Roth was a part of a redraft, but from the book I think it's pretty clear how it was adjusted. This is not to say much about PTA involvement, but Roth definitely commented without denying it in the last interview I heard. Will look into and give quote when have a minute.

[Roger Ryan]

... Also, when looking at the book and (one of the first) drafts, you can see the film and awards consideration draft being pretty distant from each other. The interviews say as much as well. It seems Eric Roth was a part of a redraft, but from the book I think it's pretty clear how it was adjusted...

Not to say that Anderson wasn't involved, but didn't Scorsese himself do a significant rewrite which is why he's a credited screenwriter on the film?

[erok910]

This was my point. It went through so many iterations: to assume it was by way of one individual is a bit myopic. That's what I was trying to mention. With the interviews showing their change of thought in the movie. I may be off anyway, obviously. I guess I was thinking that it was clear how the original draft had changed drastically to the final draft. Not much more.

[hearthesilence]

Even before the film was shown in public, it was very well documented that the film was thoroughly rewritten to change the focus and perspective of the film, and Roth discussed that very early on in interviews (again, well before the film's release) making it clear that it wasn't his decision to drastically change the script. Like many auteurs, Scorsese rewrites many (maybe all) of his films, often in collaboration, even with cast members and often without credit (though not in this case). None of that was ever questioned, only the suggestion that Anderson is the "real" author of the film. The idea of him rewriting the script isn't implausible - it's not only frequent practice in the industry but Scorsese has enlisted major writers to do a rewrite on scripts without credit. The problem is unless someone tangible (not some mysterious and anonymous source) actually goes on record to confirm his contributions, the claim begins to look like conspiracy lunacy, where "non-denials" are meant to be a smoking gun with certain believers claiming every scene must be Anderson's work because everything is so obvious now that they know the real truth.

[erok910]

Ah, I see what you're saying now. I'll find the Eric Roth quote I was talking about and post it here, but I also have definitely noticed this weird PTA fandom pop up on the internet in the way you're speaking, for sure. And definitely agree that the most I've really heard from Roth were more or less non-denials. When you're right, you're right: the credits are definitely there at the end and clearly say Scorsese and Roth, and it definitely does not say Paul Thomas Anderson/Leo DiCaprio, etc.