Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

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mfunk9786
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Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#1 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:02 pm

Jeez, this is some year for up and coming filmmakers really announcing themselves as here to stay. Heller, who has already been slingshot into the prestige zone with the Mr. Rodgers/Tom Hanks film that is coming this time next year, has made a really enjoyable if somewhat minor entertainment here. Despite how compelling this story is, it's one that occurs without much globetrotting fanfare, so the entire enterprise sinks or swims on the strength of the performances, and luckily this is a magnificently cast picture from the ground up. Melissa McCarthy is an open wound, always wearing her emotions (in this case: misanthropy, depression) directly on the surface, and I just don't know if this would have worked with Julianne Moore, as was originally announced. McCarthy has too robust and natural a sense of humor not to be the choice for this role, and no one who hatched and successfully pulled off a scheme like this could have done so without the sort of frustrated wit that she displays here without an ounce of effort or dramatization. Richard E. Grant is one of our underappreciated treasures and would hopefully garner some Oscar consideration for his supporting role, playing what feels sort of like a later-in-life Withnail with a dose of Kramer thrown in for good measure, and he and McCarthy play off of each other very well. Strong recommendation from me.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#2 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:04 pm

Grant (along with McCarthy) is widely expected to pick up an Oscar nom, so I think you'll get your wish

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#3 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:07 pm

McCarthy strikes me as someone who might be overlooked just because her performance doesn't require nearly as much effervescence, but I haven't really plugged into Oscar prognostication yet (my office's IT department has now blocked any websites considered to be in the "Movies" category, thankfully not this one), so that is lovely to hear.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#4 Post by Brian C » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:16 pm

I might have just been in the wrong mood, but this movie was on the outs with me as soon as it started. It opens with McCarthy's character at her desk at work, in what appears to be a normal office environment, obnoxiously swirling the ice cubes in her alcoholic beverage, pissing everyone off, and when they call her out on it, she replies with a "fuck off". And I was thinking, has any actual human ever acted like this? It's such nakedly inappropriate behavior that I don't think anyone that clueless could have ever gotten a job in the first place, especially in a story set in what I take it is the early 90s or so, when you still had to interview face-to-face in order to get hired anywhere. Someone with her complete surrender to alcoholism and lack of social skills would more likely be berating passersby when they didn't give her money.

But that's this movie, which never holds back from an opportunity to make this character an over-the-top sad sack, and the film is all muddy yellows and browns just to emphasize the dreariness. It's aggressively off-putting while also somehow feeling like it's telling its story in the most middle-of-the-road way possible, with nothing to say except "look at these lame-asses and their dumb scheme." There's not an honest moment in the entire movie.

I kind of hated it.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#5 Post by phantomforce » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:50 am

I looked forward to this film even though the trailer told me everything but it still didn't disappoint. The final sequence with Grant and McCarthy is just beautiful in the most fucked up way and the film has a lot of depth and passion in it. I think any creative person will empathize. Grant gave one of his best performances and is definitely due a nom and McCarthy continues to show that she can play any character her own way.. She continues to impress me even in her worst films. I hope it makes it to wide release or at least the AMPAS members are more aware of it.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#6 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:09 am

Brian C wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:16 pm
I might have just been in the wrong mood, but this movie was on the outs with me as soon as it started. It opens with McCarthy's character at her desk at work, in what appears to be a normal office environment, obnoxiously swirling the ice cubes in her alcoholic beverage, pissing everyone off, and when they call her out on it, she replies with a "fuck off". And I was thinking, has any actual human ever acted like this? It's such nakedly inappropriate behavior that I don't think anyone that clueless could have ever gotten a job in the first place, especially in a story set in what I take it is the early 90s or so, when you still had to interview face-to-face in order to get hired anywhere.
On board with the spirit of what you're saying here because I've had films rub me the wrong way before for similar reasons, but it was a low-level filing job and what seemed to be 3rd shift, and likely not an everyday occurrence but a self-sabotaging pushing of the boundaries after X amount of time in it and a relatively newfound lack of interest in it continuing. And I think you're giving HR people too much credit - data entry and call center jobs are often filled by warm bodies without any resume at all, and it's clear that Israel could have charmed (or just floated) her way through an interview for that sort of a position when she needed money coupled with her history as a researcher and writer. Con men and women can get away with a whole lot that is more complex than getting hired in a file room. It's not how I would have opened the film, I agree with you there.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#7 Post by domino harvey » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:32 pm

Fox has decided this film’s three Oscar noms aren’t enough to merit even a Blu-ray, and will be DVD only. In 2019. What a world we live in

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#8 Post by soundchaser » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:37 pm

Yeah, this gobsmacked me as well, especially considering you can find a 4K stream online to rent.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#9 Post by Monterey Jack » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:55 pm

I refuse to buy current movies and TV shows on DVD (which really hurt when it came to the third season of Fargo...we'll never be able to enjoy Mary Elizabeth Winstead's naked tush in HD again. :().

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#10 Post by Big Ben » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:59 pm

I believe hearthesilence pointed out with a report in another thread that at least half of home video sales (A little over fifty percent I think.) are still DVD with Blu Ray tailing behind it. UHD on the other hand only consisted of about five percent of sales.
Last edited by Big Ben on Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#11 Post by lacritfan » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:16 pm

(Yes) I still subscribe to Netflix the old fashioned way and it says Blu-ray in my queue (might be "rental only")?

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#12 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:15 am

Worth noting that this is available in 4K UHD (includes the ability to also stream in HD) on Fandango (and I'm assuming a litany of other services) for $14.99, or $5.99 to rent. The streaming purchase includes a number of special features including an audio commentary.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#13 Post by lacritfan » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:17 pm

lacritfan wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:16 pm
(Yes) I still subscribe to Netflix the old fashioned way and it says Blu-ray in my queue (might be "rental only")?
...and now the Blu is in my Saved/unknown que but if I switch to DVD it's Short Wait so there you go.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#14 Post by Cremildo » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:24 pm

Julianne Moore reveals she didn't leave the project - she was fired by then-director Nicole Holofcener due to creative differences.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#15 Post by Cremildo » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:06 pm

This is getting a North American Blu-ray release after all.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#16 Post by PfR73 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:40 pm

Thank goodness! I was pissed when I noticed that it seemed like the Blu-Ray release had been cancelled and only a DVD had been released.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#17 Post by Monterey Jack » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:25 am

They gonna reimburse everyone who bought the DVD or digital copy thinking it'd be the only way to own the movie?

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#18 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:32 am

Why would they?

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#19 Post by dustybooks » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:01 am

I loved this -- which I somewhat expected to, finding the subject matter fascinating and having admired Heller's previous work -- but despite being funny at times I think it's one of the most depressing movies I've ever seen. Like nothing else I can think of outside of some of Kelly Reichardt's films, it captures totally bleak loneliness in a way that's really quite haunting, and set against the drab back corners of booksellers and dingy apartments and dive bars -- it almost wallows, but it does so I think out of a commitment to really capturing its conception of Lee Israel and her tendency at this juncture toward pushing everyone away. I don't have a problem with Holofcener but I simply can't imagine her version having the same impact.

Also, having now actually seen Grant's performance, I wish even more that he'd gotten the Oscar.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#20 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:34 pm

I was very surprised to like this a fair amount the first time after going in with the lowest of expectations. While I wasn't as enamored with tonight's return, after seeing Heller's latest masterpiece, this is an appropriate stepping stone between the developmental-hardening of youth in Diary of a Teenage Girl and the tired surrendering of resentment with Christian forgiveness in A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood. McCarthy's Lee Israel is a repelling figure to start, but like Heller's other work, she empathizes with self-pity as a genuine emotion especially as a form of self-preservation when one feels to alienated from others. Lee's judgments of others, her projected anger, alcoholic woes, and social weaseling of excuses, lies, and jabs that deflate on delivery, are all sourced in a spiritual hole left unfilled.

Grant's friendship is the only social relationship that manages to help her warm that space when together, an authentic union that is such a rare gift because of how leveled they are when operating on the same wavelength. They understand one another, they feel at home with one another, and Heller could care less if we want to hang out with them because everyone deserves someone they 'get', just as everyone deserves to be appreciated and understood if such a person comes along. This is an admirable portrayal of those alcoholic relationships that people put into the "bad" boxes in hindsight but that carry immense meaning while they're active, and it's as honest a relationship as any between two lonely souls who cross paths, which is so much of life.

Lee also fills that hole with her skills of deception, partly because she enjoys a high of superiority in besting those who don't turn their heads to her furious provocations- which, as annoying as they are, is an expected response for the injured to go on the offensive. She also partly engages in this behavior as a result of boldly refusing to change. Change is hard for all people, so sayeth the mantra of modern therapeutic modalities, and so here is another example of empathy divorced from endorsement (or humanism, if you will) but Heller definitely tests our triggers of certain personalities with these reasons driving Lee's behavior- which I admittedly had a tougher time digesting this revisit. Where she managed to grab me, at least, is in the self-perception of rejection that Lee feels- the universality of being tired and washed up without apparent supports in a pit of static low self-esteem. Lee's ability to resiliently engage in self-preservation of higher Maslow needs gives herself a sense of self-respect, as backwards as her methods may be to avoid the hard work. She has a hard life, and instead of pitying her as she pities herself, we can eventually acclimate to approaching the character from a vacuumed recognition of the misery.

We get more than enough information that reinforces that Lee is pigheaded and drives people away by diffusing responsibility and evading any chance to look in the mirror, so our empathy needs to persist divorced from contingent characteristics. However, eventually Lee hits her bottom, as lucky alcoholics do, and this film becomes a depiction of narcissistic active alcoholic thinking, while A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood takes on the recovery piece. They truly are perfect companion films. Lee's refusal to issue regret in the trial at first seems like a failure to grasp a chance at acceptance, and then turns into one of the core principles of AA: "We do not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it," for actually facing ourself soberly will be vital to the start of a new life.

The argument that she's providing a service lends itself to the other arguments about what is 'real' and what matters more- the excitement of believing you're possessing something special or whether that object has inherent value outside of the subjectivity decreed by the possessor. I think these ideas are better expressed in other films, including being postured at circumferentially spanning the cultural desert of social politics in American Hustle, but it's worthwhile food for thought. When the bookseller offers her contact info to Lee, is it because of the fake service Lee provides increasing her attractiveness, or is it because this woman already admired Lee and Lee has only gleaned the seeds of confidence to look up outside of her own egotistical hostility to grant herself an ounce of social value, to take a chance at romantic connection for a second.

I think it's the latter, and so here is a film that works at demonstrating how important it is for us to get out of our own way to access the self-respect we deserve, and that however we decide to do it- even if via illegal or ironic means- there is merit in the process that doesn't need to be "authenticated" be the masses. Whether Lee deserves externally-enforced consequences or not is besides the point, it's the natural consequences that stem from one's historical development that matter most. Lee's opportunities to forgive herself and Grant are invaluable, and the only person who can authenticate our meaning- our relationship with a piece of art or relationship or part of ourselves -is us. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

I don't know why it was so challenging for me to align with McCarthy's humanity this time. Was it a sense of obstinate grandiosity that was unfairly cushioned by her feline affection, as if these should be measures of contrast? Or that she has a moment of clarity and then continues to lie about participation in recovery while drinking and talking about being destined to write a self-serving story of her life of crime, whilst making an ignorant joke about how insignificant these crimes were, showing... humility... side by side with grandeur? Maybe I was annoyed that she didn't seem to actually learn anything, after thrusting epiphanies in our face, with pointed intentions to graze our compassion due to said faux-changes. Heller is clearly designing the film to pitch us against this character, and expose these hypocrisies as natural and indiscriminately infecting us all, without necessitating classic evolution to earn a humanistic perspective. I suppose my issues are answered by her next film, which I've already argued operates within Christian forgiveness that does not need to be earned with reciprocity, and this film is likely stronger for its density of uncompromising characterization. I'm just not convinced that it's quite as aware that a few melodramatic manipulations run counter to its ethos during some third act setpieces. Though I guess I can forgive some of these flaws in favor of the tremendous feat to hold a rare worldview with such persistence.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#21 Post by soundchaser » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:22 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:34 pm
I don't know why it was so challenging for me to align with McCarthy's humanity this time. Was it a sense of obstinate grandiosity that was unfairly cushioned by her feline affection, as if these should be measures of contrast? Or that she has a moment of clarity and then continues to lie about participation in recovery while drinking and talking about being destined to write a self-serving story of her life of crime, whilst making an ignorant joke about how insignificant these crimes were, showing... humility... side by side with grandeur? Maybe I was annoyed that she didn't seem to actually learn anything, after thrusting epiphanies in our face, with pointed intentions to graze our compassion due to said faux-changes. Heller is clearly designing the film to pitch us against this character, and expose these hypocrisies as natural and indiscriminately infecting us all, without necessitating classic evolution to earn a humanistic perspective. I suppose my issues are answered by her next film, which I've already argued operates within Christian forgiveness that does not need to be earned with reciprocity, and this film is likely stronger for its density of uncompromising characterization. I'm just not convinced that it's quite as aware that a few melodramatic manipulations run counter to its ethos during some third act setpieces. Though I guess I can forgive some of these flaws in favor of the tremendous feat to hold a rare worldview with such persistence.
Going to jump around a little in your analysis, so bear with me. I think this was a difficult balance to strike for the filmmakers, particularly the screenwriters, because Israel is largely unrepentant in her book. The closest she comes to expressing remorse is in the last chapter, when she says:
Lee Israel wrote:Any remorse I experience about this phase of my life in crime has nothing to do with the money various dealers may have lost; I think most of the dealers came out ahead. The remorse here is personal. I betrayed some people who I had grown to like. With whom I'd make jokes and broke bread. And in doing so I joined, to my dismay, the great global souk, a marketplace of bad company and bad faith.
And then she's right back into talking about her new job at Scholastic and how it will help her take care of her cats. The book is, admittedly, pretty slim, but I don't think the contents actually reflect the title. Or if they do, it's only in the most ironic sense - she really doesn't ask for forgiveness at any point, so can we ever forgive her if she doesn't want it?

This is why I think the filmmakers' invention of Anna was smart - we need a way in to seeing the consequences for Israel that aren't professional (being banned from libraries, her biggest complaint, isn't something most can relate to). She doesn't do a great job in the book of telling us what this personal remorse is. Heller's staging of it, which she talks about in this interview, is also brilliant - not just in how it reveals the difficulty of lesbian dating in the 1990s but also in how it complicates our understanding of Israel's defense mechanisms.
therewillbeblus wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:34 pm
Grant's friendship is the only social relationship that manages to help her warm that space when together, an authentic union that is such a rare gift because of how leveled they are when operating on the same wavelength. They understand one another, they feel at home with one another, and Heller could care less if we want to hang out with them because everyone deserves someone they 'get', just as everyone deserves to be appreciated and understood if such a person comes along. This is an admirable portrayal of those alcoholic relationships that people put into the "bad" boxes in hindsight but that carry immense meaning while they're active, and it's as honest a relationship as any between two lonely souls who cross paths, which is so much of life.
This is another area in which I think the filmmakers did a great job. Jack doesn't appear until well over halfway through the book (page 89 in my edition), and he's dealt with pretty quickly. There's no reconciliation scene, only a brief ironic joke that the last time Israel spoke to Jack over the phone she thought he didn't know who she was. (Does she know who she is at that point?) So I think there was an attempt to reconcile these manipulations with our desire to see the Israel character (as opposed to Israel the person) learn something, even if it isn't 100% successful.
therewillbeblus wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:34 pm
Lee also fills that hole with her skills of deception, partly because she enjoys a high of superiority in besting those who don't turn their heads to her furious provocations- which, as annoying as they are, is an expected response for the injured to go on the offensive. She also partly engages in this behavior as a result of boldly refusing to change. Change is hard for all people, so sayeth the mantra of modern therapeutic modalities, and so here is another example of empathy divorced from endorsement (or humanism, if you will) but Heller definitely tests our triggers of certain personalities with these reasons driving Lee's behavior- which I admittedly had a tougher time digesting this revisit. Where she managed to grab me, at least, is in the self-perception of rejection that Lee feels- the universality of being tired and washed up without apparent supports in a pit of static low self-esteem. Lee's ability to resiliently engage in self-preservation of higher Maslow needs gives herself a sense of self-respect, as backwards as her methods may be to avoid the hard work. She has a hard life, and instead of pitying her as she pities herself, we can eventually acclimate to approaching the character from a vacuumed recognition of the misery.
This tone is very much in keeping with the book's as well. I think the discussion of Lolita happening elsewhere on the board yesterday makes for an interesting comparison, because it has a similar approach (at least in my mind) of asking for empathy without endorsement. Not to equate the lesser crimes of Israel the person with the more severe crimes of Humbert Humbert the character, but the similarity in narration is...there. Not sure what to make of it.
therewillbeblus wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:34 pm
The argument that she's providing a service lends itself to the other arguments about what is 'real' and what matters more- the excitement of believing you're possessing something special or whether that object has inherent value outside of the subjectivity decreed by the possessor. I think these ideas are better expressed in other films, including being postured at circumferentially spanning the cultural desert of social politics in American Hustle, but it's worthwhile food for thought. When the bookseller offers her contact info to Lee, is it because of the fake service Lee provides increasing her attractiveness, or is it because this woman already admired Lee and Lee has only gleaned the seeds of confidence to look up outside of her own egotistical hostility to grant herself an ounce of social value, to take a chance at romantic connection for a second.

I think it's the latter, and so here is a film that works at demonstrating how important it is for us to get out of our own way to access the self-respect we deserve, and that however we decide to do it- even if via illegal or ironic means- there is merit in the process that doesn't need to be "authenticated" be the masses. Whether Lee deserves externally-enforced consequences or not is besides the point, it's the natural consequences that stem from one's historical development that matter most. Lee's opportunities to forgive herself and Grant are invaluable, and the only person who can authenticate our meaning- our relationship with a piece of art or relationship or part of ourselves -is us. Maybe that sounds hokey, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
Another part of why the Anna segments are some of my favorites here - they are perfectly suited to the subject matter. I think Israel the character sees all her relationships as inauthentic up to a point, and it's her realization that there is authenticity within a shared lie (or that it may not actually be a lie once two people believe it together) that allows her to forgive herself, Grant, and her ex (who is mentioned in the book but I'm pretty sure is another embellishment by the filmmakers). Certified Copy comes to mind, although that film is obviously a lot more tricksy in form.

I really appreciate your cogent thoughts, as always, and I hope this helps to clarify the tough tightrope this film had to walk. I think it manages admirably, but I can see why it might be a little awkward at points. The book's well worth a read at only 100 pages and change, many of which are taken up by Israel's forged letters.

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Re: Can You Ever Forgive Me? (Marielle Heller, 2018)

#22 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:40 pm

Thanks soundchaser, it's helpful to have those insights into the book as context! I'm glad Heller emphasized Jack's role and frames them as "orphans" as well as hints at their resiliences in her interview you linked, which really supports my impressions. Her crack about if Jack Nicholson played the same role that the Lee character wouldn't be as repelling to viewers was strong food for thought. Also Heller's "Is clarity the best thing?" argument on the value of subtly and nuance in the interview should be written up as a response to a few different threads on this forum from the past few days...

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