The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
- flyonthewall2983
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Evan Rachel Wood's appearance on The Soup last night nearly justifies her blah performance in the film.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Was it as good as LeVar Burton pretending to be a member of the Mad Men cast?
- flyonthewall2983
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
No, but it was funny. Then again, I can't think of a time I didn't laugh at one of their segments.
-
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:04 am
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Caught up with this over the weekend. Liked Rourke's performance, as with many here. Certainly the best thing Aranovsky has done by a mile. The subject is inherently quite engaging in a 70s studio Rocky kind of way. Good locations, all of the behind-the-scenes wrestling material feels authentic. There is, however, a gigantic misstep - all of the material with the daughter, oh my God is this poorly judged. Her performance, sure, but also the dialogue, and the cliche of the whole scenario... Bad 90s studio 'indie' 101 - really drags the film down. I'm also surprised that the film has had such an easy ride on the issue of ripping off the Dardennes - the opening is straight out of Rosetta, and not in a particularly interesting or effective way, either. The handheld aesthetic grates in general. To be honest, by the 45 minute park, I had gotten John's points (about the 80s nostalghia, when American power was at it's height, the way that Rourke and Tomei sell their bodies for a living, but regard their jobs in almost opposite ways) and was beginning to feel somewhat bored.
However...
The final scene is amazing, from Sweet Child of Mine on. The Ayatollah, the speech and, in particular, two final shots of incredible power, the absurdity of the wrestling iconography imbued with an incredible poignancy and, also, a degree of political significance. This and the dire daughter stuff just about cancel each other out. I'd say a 6 or 7 overall.
However...
The final scene is amazing, from Sweet Child of Mine on. The Ayatollah, the speech and, in particular, two final shots of incredible power, the absurdity of the wrestling iconography imbued with an incredible poignancy and, also, a degree of political significance. This and the dire daughter stuff just about cancel each other out. I'd say a 6 or 7 overall.
- Ruby
- Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:02 pm
- Location: Ireland
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Clearly a lot of you guys are wrestling fans or at least knowledgeable about it so maybe you can enlighten me. The Wrestler was mocking wrestling, no?
I was always thinking of boxing because of the obvious parallel to boxing films (the only sport to produce decent movies). But boxing has a certain cultural nobility attached to it whereas wrestling is seen largely as a kitsch aspect of US culture: the semi-planned fights with their cartoonish violence. What I liked about the film was that it was about a wrestler not a boxer (we don't need more noble-boxing films) but why wasn't there more about wrestling culture?
If anything, the wrestling culture presented here is, forgive me, pathetic - drug taking and fight fixing is commonplace. Wrestlers are clearly physically powerful men and, despite the fake fights, endure intense pain, but what drives them to wrestling over other physically intense sports?
Also, there was little indication of the people who go to wrestling. For most of the film, it is a sport with juvenile and waning support yet, at the end, a huge adult crowd attend the meet. Who are they and what is it that attracts them?
An earlier poster mentioned the physically hardworking blue-collar class and I think he was onto something Darren A. should have looked at. I thought the Ram (and perhaps the stripper too) did represent this alienated under-class to a degree.
Way too much has been read into the 80s ref in the bar scene. It’s a throwaway ironic joke. Anyone who ever walked into a rock-metal bar could feel this sentiment seeping through the leathers – except maybe in the 80s time-warp that is continental Europe.
On a different point, surely no red-blooded man would consider Marisa Tomei too old. I'm not male, so freely correct me, but wasn't she a little too lithe and beautiful for this role?
I found the film pretty dull to be honest-maintained by the freak-factor of Mickey Rourke.
I was always thinking of boxing because of the obvious parallel to boxing films (the only sport to produce decent movies). But boxing has a certain cultural nobility attached to it whereas wrestling is seen largely as a kitsch aspect of US culture: the semi-planned fights with their cartoonish violence. What I liked about the film was that it was about a wrestler not a boxer (we don't need more noble-boxing films) but why wasn't there more about wrestling culture?
If anything, the wrestling culture presented here is, forgive me, pathetic - drug taking and fight fixing is commonplace. Wrestlers are clearly physically powerful men and, despite the fake fights, endure intense pain, but what drives them to wrestling over other physically intense sports?
Also, there was little indication of the people who go to wrestling. For most of the film, it is a sport with juvenile and waning support yet, at the end, a huge adult crowd attend the meet. Who are they and what is it that attracts them?
An earlier poster mentioned the physically hardworking blue-collar class and I think he was onto something Darren A. should have looked at. I thought the Ram (and perhaps the stripper too) did represent this alienated under-class to a degree.
Way too much has been read into the 80s ref in the bar scene. It’s a throwaway ironic joke. Anyone who ever walked into a rock-metal bar could feel this sentiment seeping through the leathers – except maybe in the 80s time-warp that is continental Europe.
On a different point, surely no red-blooded man would consider Marisa Tomei too old. I'm not male, so freely correct me, but wasn't she a little too lithe and beautiful for this role?
I found the film pretty dull to be honest-maintained by the freak-factor of Mickey Rourke.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Yes she is, but I don't mind.
- Ruby
- Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:02 pm
- Location: Ireland
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Ha ha ha, I knew it.Yes she is, but I don't mind.
- Binker
- Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:53 am
- Location: Tucson
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
First of all, wrestling isn't a sport. It's activity that involves athletic ability. Second, it's never a matter of choice. Even the most athletic of wrestlers are failed pro prospects. Many others played Division III football, and still more played in high school and weren't good enough to make it to the next level. There's a lot more to making it in the NFL than being a somewhat big guy who can dance around a ring (and other sports like baseball, hockey, basketball, etc, aren't even worth dismissing). Plus, you have to realize that a lot of these guys probably were not even that big before deciding to attempt pro wrestling... You still need to work hard to put on muscle with juice, but, with the correct training and diet (which wrestling schools provide), 40 pounds of pretty much pure muscle in a few years is nowhere near impossible.Ruby wrote:If anything, the wrestling culture presented here is, forgive me, pathetic - drug taking and fight fixing is commonplace. Wrestlers are clearly physically powerful men and, despite the fake fights, endure intense pain, but what drives them to wrestling over other physically intense sports?
- dx23
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:52 pm
- Location: Puerto Rico
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
I suggest that you watch the documentary Beyond the Mat so you can get a better understanding of what wrestling is, why do people choose it a profession and why is it popular. From your questions, I can answer some:Ruby wrote:Clearly a lot of you guys are wrestling fans or at least knowledgeable about it so maybe you can enlighten me. The Wrestler was mocking wrestling, no?
I was always thinking of boxing because of the obvious parallel to boxing films (the only sport to produce decent movies). But boxing has a certain cultural nobility attached to it whereas wrestling is seen largely as a kitsch aspect of US culture: the semi-planned fights with their cartoonish violence. What I liked about the film was that it was about a wrestler not a boxer (we don't need more noble-boxing films) but why wasn't there more about wrestling culture?
If anything, the wrestling culture presented here is, forgive me, pathetic - drug taking and fight fixing is commonplace. Wrestlers are clearly physically powerful men and, despite the fake fights, endure intense pain, but what drives them to wrestling over other physically intense sports?
Also, there was little indication of the people who go to wrestling. For most of the film, it is a sport with juvenile and waning support yet, at the end, a huge adult crowd attend the meet. Who are they and what is it that attracts them?
An earlier poster mentioned the physically hardworking blue-collar class and I think he was onto something Darren A. should have looked at. I thought the Ram (and perhaps the stripper too) did represent this alienated under-class to a degree.
Way too much has been read into the 80s ref in the bar scene. It’s a throwaway ironic joke. Anyone who ever walked into a rock-metal bar could feel this sentiment seeping through the leathers – except maybe in the 80s time-warp that is continental Europe.
On a different point, surely no red-blooded man would consider Marisa Tomei too old. I'm not male, so freely correct me, but wasn't she a little too lithe and beautiful for this role?
I found the film pretty dull to be honest-maintained by the freak-factor of Mickey Rourke.
1. Wrestling popularity is worldwide. Is an attraction almost in every country, especially WWE, whcih has been the top company since the early 80's.
2. There are wrestling fans of all types. Adults, kids, men, women. Up until the 90's, wrestling was composed of territories and the product varied from one to the other. In the Japan and the US South, it was a mix of storytelling with athletic "competition". In Mexico, it was more of an acrobatic event. In Puerto Rico, it was bloody brawls while in the Northeast of the US, it was more cartoonish. The crowds have always depended in the region, but you'll be surprised how many fans of the product are there. George Clooney is a huge fan.
3. Is the movie mocking the business? No. It gives you a glimpse of the sacrifices and paying of dues that most in the business have gone through. What happens to Rourke's character is what happens to most wrestlers in the "minor" leagues before they could or after they reached the big promotions (WWF/WWE, WCW, ECW, TNA). There are old wrestlers that spent all their earnings in drugs, alcohol and lavish lifestyle and then when their body breaks down, they lose everything really fast. Go google Jake The Snake Roberts and you'll see what I mean.
- dx23
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:52 pm
- Location: Puerto Rico
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Here is a good article from Bret Hart, former WWF/WCW wrestler. You can see the wrestler's point of view.
- Binker
- Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:53 am
- Location: Tucson
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
This article is actually hilarious. In the introduction and conclusion, Hart indicates that he feels the film portrayed the life of a professional wrestler unfairly and unsympathetically.... but he spends the entire body recounting his alienation from his family, the lack of "medical benefits, pension, or union," the countless deaths, including his own brother's, and a retiring kick to the head which left him permanently brain damaged.dx23 wrote:Here is a good article from Bret Hart, former WWF/WCW wrestler. You can see the wrestler's point of view.
- dx23
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:52 pm
- Location: Puerto Rico
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
I think what he means is that even though his life has gone though many bumps, he didn't end up like Rourke's character. The fact is that Hart saved his money wisely and was prepared for life after wrestling.Binker wrote:This article is actually hilarious. In the introduction and conclusion, Hart indicates that he feels the film portrayed the life of a professional wrestler unfairly and unsympathetically.... but he spends the entire body recounting his alienation from his family, the lack of "medical benefits, pension, or union," the countless deaths, including his own brother's, and a retiring kick to the head which left him permanently brain damaged.dx23 wrote:Here is a good article from Bret Hart, former WWF/WCW wrestler. You can see the wrestler's point of view.
- jbeall
- Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:22 am
- Location: Atlanta-ish
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Lotsa interesting backstory on Bret Hart for those of us who watched wrestling in the late 90s. This is a man who clearly bought into his own legend, and it cost him dearly after his retirement. He's patched things up with McMahon now, but around '97-98, his behavior was... erratic. There should be a documentary made about that.
I second the recommendation for Beyond the Mat. All three wrestlers profiled were highly compelling individuals, with very different personal histories. Rourke's character is one possible outcome; Jake Roberts, Terry Funk, and Mick Foley are others.
I second the recommendation for Beyond the Mat. All three wrestlers profiled were highly compelling individuals, with very different personal histories. Rourke's character is one possible outcome; Jake Roberts, Terry Funk, and Mick Foley are others.
- flyonthewall2983
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
In other words, it's just a "me me me" review. Because it was a road he didn't go down, it doesn't means everyone else didn't either. Nobody would have been interested in seeing a movie about the Ernest Miller character because he came out of the business relatively unscathed (and was able to turn his mic skills into being a good salesman). I have a great deal of respect for Bret because he was one of the few top guys who brought a real knowledge of wrestling into the sport. But lately he's been more and more about inflating his own ego and trashing almost everyone, including members of his own family.**dx23 wrote:I think what he means is that even though his life has gone though many bumps, he didn't end up like Rourke's character. The fact is that Hart saved his money wisely and was prepared for life after wrestling.Binker wrote:This article is actually hilarious. In the introduction and conclusion, Hart indicates that he feels the film portrayed the life of a professional wrestler unfairly and unsympathetically.... but he spends the entire body recounting his alienation from his family, the lack of "medical benefits, pension, or union," the countless deaths, including his own brother's, and a retiring kick to the head which left him permanently brain damaged.dx23 wrote:Here is a good article from Bret Hart, former WWF/WCW wrestler. You can see the wrestler's point of view.
Here is a review from Mick Foley, which I'll argue is much more personal, entertaining, and insightful as Bret's is.
There was a documentary made about Bret's career in 96 and 97, called Wrestling With Shadows. It was originally intended to be kind of a puff piece for Canadian television but it took a turn when his relationship with WWF (now WWE) started to sour. It's very much a one-sided picture of the story, with Bret being the main focus of the film. But it's also a bit more personal and less schticky as Beyond The Mat is.jbeall wrote:Lotsa interesting backstory on Bret Hart for those of us who watched wrestling in the late 90s. This is a man who clearly bought into his own legend, and it cost him dearly after his retirement. He's patched things up with McMahon now, but around '97-98, his behavior was... erratic. There should be a documentary made about that.
**4/7/09 update: I feel a little differently about Bret now, after reading his wonderful autobiography. Part of what made me make the original comment is in the book, but it's balanced out by a brutally honest portrait of himself. I highly recommend it to anyone who was a fan of Bret's and a fan of wrestling in the 80's/90's in general. He was there during the majority of their heyday in the 80's and gives a good idea to the reader what it was like to be part of that huge wave of success.
Last edited by flyonthewall2983 on Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- dx23
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:52 pm
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
I was going to mention Wrestling with the Shadows, which is available on DVD in Canada and Europe. I always liked Bret Hart, but he was always about himself, like Hogan, Flair, and so many others who want to keep their top position in the business. Still, there are so many wrestlers that have gotten much worse fate than The Ram, such as the British Bulldogs, Dynamite Kid, and Davey Boy Smith, Superstar Billy Graham, Lex Luger, and sadly, Mr. Perfect, Curt Hennig.
- RagingNoodles
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
I remember Dave Meltzer talking about how pro wrestling - for the most part - has been built on 3 types of people:Binker wrote:First of all, wrestling isn't a sport. It's activity that involves athletic ability. Second, it's never a matter of choice. Even the most athletic of wrestlers are failed pro prospects.Ruby wrote:If anything, the wrestling culture presented here is, forgive me, pathetic - drug taking and fight fixing is commonplace. Wrestlers are clearly physically powerful men and, despite the fake fights, endure intense pain, but what drives them to wrestling over other physically intense sports?
1. Athletes from other sports that for whatever reason couldn't perform in the sport they wanted to, and come around to pro wrestling for financial reasons. Example: Lex Luger.
2. Someone who was born into it, with the whole family involved in the pro wrestling industry, and they just naturally get into the pro wrestling business. Example: Someone like Eddy Guerrero or Bret Hart.
3. Someone that became a lifelong fan as a young kid, became obsessed with it and viewed it as their destiny. There whole life is dedicated towards the "art" of pro wresting and they basically do anything it takes to get ahead. Example: Chris Benoit becoming in awe of Dynamite Kid and attempting to be a modern version of him. Also another example would be Eddie Gilbert growing up in the Memphis territory and growing up idolizing Jerry Lawler, wishing he could be the next "King" of Memphis. Both are dead now.
While Bret Hart was an excellent WWF performer (in fact, I can only think of a few people I would put ahead of him as better WWF/WWE performers), he has always had a really limited worldview. He has a view of anything not in "his style" being totally inferior, and has spent many times blasting Lucha Libre, Ric Flair and Japanese style wrestling just cause it's different from what he thinks wrestling should be.
I don't feel Darren was mocking or making fun of wrestling in any way, but it was a pretty critical and dark portrait of what people are willing to do for a business most people don't take seriously. For anyone interested in the really dark side of pro wrestling, a book was recently published last year called Ring of Hell by Matthew Randazzo V is a must. While the book has its flaws and many detractors, it does have a rather really dark cynical portrait of the pro wrestling industry.
I feel odd talking on criterionforum.org/forum about pro wrestling.
Last edited by RagingNoodles on Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Lemmy Caution
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:26 am
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
You have to realize that there are main circuits with big promotional events (ie SummerSlam on pay-per-view) and then smaller satellite circuits which are more local and rinky dink. It's kind of like playing the Apollo Theater or going on the chitlin' circuit; only for wrestling it's Madison Square Garden or The Knights of Columbus in Dunellen, NJ, where my father told me the wrestlers couldn't go off the top ring rope because their heads would have hit the low ceiling. In the film, all of the early matches are at little venues, such as high school gyms and fraternal lodges, while the final match with a substantial audience is at a larger venue/ sports arena in Wilmington, Del.Ruby wrote: Also, there was little indication of the people who go to wrestling. For most of the film, it is a sport with juvenile and waning support yet, at the end, a huge adult crowd attend the meet. Who are they and what is it that attracts them?
To a degree?An earlier poster mentioned the physically hardworking blue-collar class and I think he was onto something Darren A. should have looked at. I thought the Ram (and perhaps the stripper too) did represent this alienated under-class to a degree.
I thought that was the whole point.
We're talking living in trailers, single mom-hood, working in strip clubs and supermarkets. It was all a specific suburban underclass, and I thought they nailed many of the details of such New Jersey experience. Though I'm not sure the physical distances between places worked out.
No, I don't think it was a throwaway joke, it was filled with meaning. They were longing for their past, for their glory days, when their dreams and bodies were still intact. (I think making it into a political statement is questionable, because these aren't political agents).Way too much has been read into the 80s ref in the bar scene. It’s a throwaway ironic joke. Anyone who ever walked into a rock-metal bar could feel this sentiment seeping through the leathers – except maybe in the 80s time-warp that is continental Europe.
I thought this was poorly set up in the film.On a different point, surely no red-blooded man would consider Marisa Tomei too old. I'm not male, so freely correct me, but wasn't she a little too lithe and beautiful for this role?
First they should have shown some 18-22 year-old girls working in the club, and then switched off to Tomei for comparison. Or at least showed how young these male customers were. We needed a point of comparison, because when the young customers start complaining about her age, then we see Tomei, and my reaction was that she looked pretty damn good.
- Ruby
- Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:02 pm
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
I take your points Lemmy.
I did see the 80s line as a joke - I saw the film in London and almost everyone laughed, they did too when the wrestlers arranged the fight and ordered the drugs. I think maybe there was a bit of audience distance.
You're dead right about the stripper - if we had more context it would have worked better. Not that you would want to see young female strippers for any reason other than context.
Having read the stuff here and the occassionally dippy Cahier Critique, I appreciate the film a little more now.
There’s a great description of Rourke as having "the face of a handsome kid turned into a colossus, upon which it appears someone has hastily cut and pasted, with rusty scissors, the skin of a young girl." It goes on to argue "the story is entirely built around the face of a wrestler" and that "we don't know what it is we're witnessing as we watch Mickey "The Ram" Rourke. We don't know which injuries belong to age and/or fights and/or movie make-up. The real and the fake are indistinguishable."
That sums up, for me, the reliance on Rourke-the freak factor.
I did see the 80s line as a joke - I saw the film in London and almost everyone laughed, they did too when the wrestlers arranged the fight and ordered the drugs. I think maybe there was a bit of audience distance.
You're dead right about the stripper - if we had more context it would have worked better. Not that you would want to see young female strippers for any reason other than context.
Having read the stuff here and the occassionally dippy Cahier Critique, I appreciate the film a little more now.
There’s a great description of Rourke as having "the face of a handsome kid turned into a colossus, upon which it appears someone has hastily cut and pasted, with rusty scissors, the skin of a young girl." It goes on to argue "the story is entirely built around the face of a wrestler" and that "we don't know what it is we're witnessing as we watch Mickey "The Ram" Rourke. We don't know which injuries belong to age and/or fights and/or movie make-up. The real and the fake are indistinguishable."
That sums up, for me, the reliance on Rourke-the freak factor.
- flyonthewall2983
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Video for the song.
- Jeff
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
One could really make that criticism of every film though, right?Lemmy Caution wrote:they should have shown some 18-22 year-old girls working in the club
- Antoine Doinel
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
The actor who plays the Ram's dealer gets busted for dealing steroids.
- flyonthewall2983
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
I thought he died. I know someone from the movie died, just recently. It may have been one of the wrestlers during the backstage scenes.
- jbeall
- Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:22 am
- Location: Atlanta-ish
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Tito Santana, who still wrestles occasionally, reflects on The Wrestler. (Warning: contains mild spoilers.)
- flyonthewall2983
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
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Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Good article (and video, too) but to get technical about it, Tito doesn't talk at all about the movie.jbeall wrote:Tito Santana, who still wrestles occasionally, reflects on The Wrestler. (Warning: contains mild spoilers.)
- jbeall
- Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:22 am
- Location: Atlanta-ish
Re: The Wrestler (Darren Aronofsky, 2008)
Well, he did find it "true to life," but point taken. I think it takes a great deal of willpower for a pro wrestler to hold a family life together. Pro athletes in the major sports aren't on the road nearly as much , and they make a great deal more money. I suspect Rourke's character is rather typical in his screwed up domestic life (but at least he's not as screwed up as Chris Benoit).