Sight & Sound

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knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Sight & Sound

#76 Post by knives » Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:47 pm

That’s depressing to think of. I hope film twitter is not indicative of this list though.

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domino harvey
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Re: Sight & Sound

#77 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:53 pm

I think there will obviously be a stronger presence for female directors overall, though I’m not sure what single film will be able to be rallied behind enough to get into the top ten

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Noiretirc
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Re: Sight & Sound

#78 Post by Noiretirc » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:08 pm

I predict that:
-2001, which gradually rose to #6 over the last 2 polls, will rise higher.
-Vertigo's time at the top was a blip.
-Come And See gets into the top 10.

MongooseCmr
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Re: Sight & Sound

#79 Post by MongooseCmr » Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:11 pm

As for what falls, I think mid century European/Asian filmmakers are solid, but New Hollywood will fall the way Old Hollywood did between 2002-2012 polls. Coppola, Scorsese, and Altman have their fans but I rarely see huge passion for films like Bonnie and Clyde, Easy Rider, Network, All the Presidents Men etc.

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Matt
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Sight & Sound

#80 Post by Matt » Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:32 am

knives wrote:That’s depressing to think of. I hope film twitter is not indicative of this list though.
Granted, I’m basing my predictions on absolutely no evidence, but it seems to me that Twitter (and the internet in general) has completely upended both the world of film criticism and the canon of “received classics” in the last decade, making them much more diverse in makeup but also rigidly enforcing borders and new rules of their own (such as [rightly or wrongly] treating genre films like Suspiria as seriously as anything by Bergman). And there will certainly be great pains taken to open up this poll to critics and directors who might not have been approached (or even working in these capacities) ten years ago.

Also, the easy availability of films always influences lists like this. So no one under 50 is going to vote for La maman et la putain because no one in the last 30 years has been able to see it. And the work of home video labels like MoC, Second Run, Arrow, Criterion, and many other newer labels in making previously obscure works widely available will have a huge impact. I wouldn’t be surprised to see something like Daisies or Valerie and Her Week of Wonders crack the list. But 1930s-1950s films by arty, white, male, western European, old-guard filmmakers? They’ll sink like stones. Out of all the films in the world to vote for in 2022, who would vote for something like Gertrud?

Honestly, I hope enough people rally behind RoboCop or Videodrome to launch them into the top ten, but if wishes were horses….

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Ribs
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Re: Sight & Sound

#81 Post by Ribs » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:27 am

Obviously part of the whole thing is how these things do change and don’t necessarily have to speak to the film’s absolute quality or whatever as if that is possibly a thing that really exists. Inevitably we’ll see Moonlight, Parasite, Mad Max, Toni Erdmann (plus a few others - it looks like 11 films from the preceding decade made it to the last iteration) make appearances and probably general declines from the films of Woody Allen (though I’m struggling to think of any other individual filmmaker that had places on the last list that will probably be so directly impacted negatively by the preceding decade). I mean, the question becomes for the titles like Out 1 and Wanda that were in true obscurity a decade ago if them being more available will mean there are more people happy to vote for it now or if the people that put in such votes at that time will no longer feel compelled to evangelize for something so readily available. I know it’s been said about a few titles like that here that the main appeal was their scarcity confining those who had seen it a kind of hallowed status from a specific limited experience and that they were out in the world made them far more exposed to criticism.

As great as the films are if asked I do have to wonder who are the people still listing something so hypercanonical like Rules of the Game - I am just hard-pressed to imagine being asked to do a list like this and wanting to vote for basically anything in the top-top shelf that seems certain to retain its approximate position.

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colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
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Re: Sight & Sound

#82 Post by colinr0380 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:30 am

I am going to be interested in seeing what might happen to Edward Yang's films now that A Brighter Summers Day (and Taipei Story in the World Cinema Project set) has been readily available for the last few years in a way that they were not at all (aside from Yi Yi) before the 2012 poll.

The filmmaker I would be excited to see make a debut in the poll would be Hirokazu Kore-eda. Of course he was a known quantity at the time of the 2012 poll but he has had a big surge this decade (if I were voting it would go to I Wish but I would presume that if any film would have the possibility of making it in, it would probably be Shoplifters).

On female filmmakers, I'm afraid that I cannot remember where Jeanne Dielman placed last time around, but would be excited if that made it in. Or Lucrecia Martel. Kelly Reichardt may appear too?
Last edited by colinr0380 on Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: Sight & Sound

#83 Post by Lemmy Caution » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:44 am

I love all the W&G's especially The Were-Rabbit. But Wrong Trousers remains the quintessential W&G film. Before it aired on US Tv, about a year after its British premiere, the NYTimes had a glowing write-up. So I made sure to tape it on VCR when it was shown. About a week later my sister came down with my then circa 2 1/2 or 3 year old niece. I popped in The Wrong Trousers for her to watch. My mother was supremely skeptical that any film I was putting on would have the slightest appeal to a toddler. She went into the kitchen to get some game/entertainment ready for the wee one. After about 10 minutes my mother returned and was impressed to see my young niece mesmerized by W&G, fixated and not moving an inch. I thought that was pretty cool. I've seen Wrong Trousers countless times and it never gets old. Would love to see it make the list.

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colinr0380
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Re: Sight & Sound

#84 Post by colinr0380 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 5:30 am

The wonderful comic timing of the repetition of the wake up scene except with the toaster having no bread in it to save the day may be one of the funniest things in comedy in the 1990s. I do wonder sometimes if those recent Paddington films take as much influence from Wallace & Gromit as from their ostensible source material. Paddington 2 and The Wrong Trousers seem extremely similar structurally.

(Although again both Paddington 2 and The Wrong Trousers big train finales would seem to be alluding back to classic British cinema's use of trains in films like The Titfield Thunderbolt and The Great St Trinian's Train Robbery)

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MichaelB
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Re: Sight & Sound

#85 Post by MichaelB » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:28 am

Randall Maysin Again wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:39 pm
My one and only concern is that To Sleep with Anger find a place on the f-ing list already, which it doesn't...seem to have yet. The film demands further canonization. I wonder if it has the slightest chance? I have literally no idea how such things operate.
Each poll contributor submits ten titles, considered to be weighted equally, and the top 100/250/whatever is aggregated from that.

To crack the top 100 in 2012, seventeen people or more would have had to have placed it on their own individual top ten lists. However, it got just one vote, from James Naremore.
colinr0380 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:30 am
On female filmmakers, I'm afraid that I cannot remember where Jeanne Dielman placed last time around, but would be excited if that made it in.
That came in at number 36 in 2012, with 34 votes.
Ribs wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:27 am
As great as the films are if asked I do have to wonder who are the people still listing something so hypercanonical like Rules of the Game - I am just hard-pressed to imagine being asked to do a list like this and wanting to vote for basically anything in the top-top shelf that seems certain to retain its approximate position.
In 2012, I deliberately didn't vote for any title that had already been placed in a previous S&S Top Ten, as I thought it was only fair to give others a crack of the whip, and of course it was certain that they'd get plenty of votes anyway, so they didn't need my help.
Matt wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:32 am
And the work of home video labels like MoC, Second Run, Arrow, Criterion, and many other newer labels in making previously obscure works widely available will have a huge impact. I wouldn’t be surprised to see something like Daisies or Valerie and Her Week of Wonders crack the list.
Marketa Lazarová was certainly a beneficiary of increased availability - it got eleven votes in 2012 (including one from me), putting it at number 154. In 2002, it got just one vote, unsurprisingly from Peter Hames. (I'm not sure how many Czech and Slovak critics were polled back then; my guess is "not many".) And that was before it got a Criterion release, so it may well poll higher this year - I'm all but certain to vote for it again myself.
Last edited by MichaelB on Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MV88
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Re: Sight & Sound

#86 Post by MV88 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:08 am

Matt wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:41 pm
I’m expecting Claire Denis and Wong Kar-wai to gain and anything by Dreyer or Renoir to tumble. Tarkovsky, Kurosawa, Kubrick, Hitchcock, Welles, Scorsese, and Lynch all seem like Film Twitter’s unquestionable masters, so I don’t think much will change there, but I think Vertov, Vigo, Ophuls, and maybe Antonioni are all done for. Spielberg will probably have multiple films place, and Shoah will be near the bottom of the list (if not vanish from it altogether).
The Passion of Joan of Arc will probably still be in a really high position, possibly even the top 10, but unfortunately yes, Dreyer will likely take a big fall otherwise. I don’t see many of the younger cinephiles and/or Film Twitter (I’m not sure if those two groups are synonymous at this point) really getting behind films like Ordet or Gertrud. I hope you’re not right about Antonioni falling too, but I fear you might be.

The old master I’m most worried about, though, might be Renoir. I’m actually expecting this to be the first time in forever that The Rules of the Game doesn’t make the top 10, and I’m not sure how any of his other films will fare.

In addition to Denis and Wong, I expect Edward Yang, Apichatpong Weerasethakul, and Abbas Kiarostami to have bigger presences on the list this time. I’d like to say Hou Hsiao-hsien as well, but his films sadly remain under-seen, at least in North America. I’m hoping Criterion has some more Hou lined up in the near future to help with that.

Also, while I’m not expecting Godard to take a significant fall, I do expect this will be the poll that re-evaluates what his top films are, namely I suspect Pierrot le fou to be his highest ranked, with Contempt probably next. Breathless will no longer be the consensus pick, methinks.

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brundlefly
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Re: Sight & Sound

#87 Post by brundlefly » Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:18 am

colinr0380 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:30 am
Kelly Reichardt may appear too?
Willing to contribute to any dark money campaign that may vault Wendy and Lucy on to that thing.

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The Fanciful Norwegian
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Re: Sight & Sound

#88 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:49 pm

I definitely expect Edward Yang to move up a lot. He's basically a god to the current generation of young Asian filmmakers and critics and I've lost track of how many filmmaker interviews I've seen over the last decade where a new director cites him as one of their top influences. (I don't just mean directors from China/HK/Taiwan either, it's almost a pan-Asian thing.) That said, I think A Brighter Summer Day will rank higher on the critics' poll and Yi Yi on the directors' poll.

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Maltic
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Re: Sight & Sound

#89 Post by Maltic » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:17 pm

Certain films seem to be en vogue, like Monsieur Verdoux, Mikey and Nicky, Crash... But what do I know.

They might add some former Mubi kids to vote for Prince of Darkness, Speed Racer, Deja Vu, and Miami Vice.

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movielocke
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Re: Sight & Sound

#90 Post by movielocke » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:32 pm

JakeStewart wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:16 am
Any predictions on what films will be big climbers from ten years ago?

I’d say Dead Man.
Probably Jeanne Dielman and Beau Travail will be two of the biggest increases in ranking.

La Flor will probably have the highest debut, but maybe not I'm not sure if it's multiple films or one film per their rules.

Human Condition would be a candidate for making it as it's reputation has steadily grown in the last ten years, but it suffers from being three films

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movielocke
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Re: Sight & Sound

#91 Post by movielocke » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:44 pm

Ribs wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:27 am
I mean, the question becomes for the titles like Out 1 and Wanda that were in true obscurity a decade ago if them being more available will mean there are more people happy to vote for it now or if the people that put in such votes at that time will no longer feel compelled to evangelize for something so readily available. I know it’s been said about a few titles like that here that the main appeal was their scarcity confining those who had seen it a kind of hallowed status from a specific limited experience and that they were out in the world made them far more exposed to criticism.
This is one thing I'm very interested in. Scarcity confers value, and the human brain also will attribute value based on difficulty in acquiring the experience. If you had to make special accommodations and reorient your life around a once in a life time possibility to see Out1, your brain is going to figure out a way to make sure you value the experience highly after seeing it.

But now that it's not hard to see? very curious. (I'm assuming there were no back channels on Out1 before the 2012 poll, but perhaps illegal avenues of access made it an even more of a rush to actually see it. I think there was a Seinfeld episode about this, where he tells his dad he bought him a "hot" personal computer on the "street," and his dad gets incredibly excited thinking it's illegal and loves it (versus being angry if Seinfeld paid full list for it, which Seinfeld of course did)).

Personally, having paid 'full list' for Out1 I'm still kind of angry about it / at it.

One extremely scarce film on the 1992, 2002 and 2012 list that is currently hard to find (in the USA at least) is The Traveling Players, I wonder if it'll continue it's streak.

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domino harvey
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Re: Sight & Sound

#92 Post by domino harvey » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:08 pm

Out 1 was circulating with subs back then. Being widely released was the best thing that ever happened to it, though, because now I almost never hear people mythologize about it. Once everyone could see it, the masterpiece claims were no longer both driven and obscured by its scarcity and anyone could check to confirm or deny the hyperbole

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knives
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Re: Sight & Sound

#93 Post by knives » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:10 pm

I love it albeit I prefer the shorter version.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Sight & Sound

#94 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:15 pm

I love it as well, but should watch the shorter version- does it retain most of the amusing content and cut more of the long, grating theatre sequences? Either way, I don't think it would make my top 1,000

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knives
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Re: Sight & Sound

#95 Post by knives » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:17 pm

I like the theater sequences, but they are indeed largely removed. It basically becomes a whole new movie.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Sight & Sound

#96 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:20 pm

I think the theatre sequences are important for the flow of the film- some of the 'jokes' only work with their payoff due to intentional banalities spliced elsewhere- but I also think that can be accomplished with a shorter runtime. Maybe I'll go crazy and compare them with side-by-side watches for the 70s project, but probably not

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John Cope
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Re: Sight & Sound

#97 Post by John Cope » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:25 pm

If I had a ballot I would almost certainly fill it with what would likely otherwise be the deserving but under represented, including especially the likes of Oliveira, Angelopoulos, Greenaway, Jarman, Ferrara, Cimino, Reggio. Partly too because I suspect that new inductees to the polling process will skew heavily toward some fashionable post-2000 era cinema and the classic era is always over represented I would probably make an effort to focus on great films from the late 80's/early 90's that will go otherwise uncited and completely unrecognized (e.g. Communion, Closet Land, The Reflecting Skin, Liebestraum, and Mindwalk which would probably top my list regardless of whether that would be perceived as a wasted vote by some). I really don't think other faves of mine like Malick, Lynch, Denis, Wong or Kiarostami (or even Michael Mann) would really need the boost of another vote (though I may very likely disagree on what specific titles come out on top). And I haven't got much interest in participating in a debate to sort out a consensus pick from a classic auteur such as which Antonioni is best. As to scarcity or difficulty of experience conferring or enriching value, my own vote would have to go to Everett Lewis's superb An Ambush of Ghosts which I saw at an ultra-rare screening at USC in 2001 (I don't think it's been screened since)--well, that or Barney's River of Fundament.

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swo17
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Re: Sight & Sound

#98 Post by swo17 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:27 pm

Out 1 is a brilliant 2-hour movie stretched out over 13, and I think part of the value comes from having to endure it in parts before being rewarded. Not unlike Twin Peaks perhaps (either iteration). Spectre suffers in comparison from being only kinda long.

Would someone who is invited to vote please do me a solid and consider including Manöel on the Island of Marvels? Thank you in advance

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Maltic
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Re: Sight & Sound

#99 Post by Maltic » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:49 pm

movielocke wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:32 pm


Probably Jeanne Dielman and Beau Travail will be two of the biggest increases in ranking.

La Flor will probably have the highest debut, but maybe not I'm not sure if it's multiple films or one film per their rules.

Human Condition would be a candidate for making it as it's reputation has steadily grown in the last ten years, but it suffers from being three films

If you consider only the films in the top 100 in 2012, yes, but relatively few votes will help a film jump higher, further down the list. E.g. Daisies, Wanda and Cleo from 5 to 7 were joint #202 (8 votes), The House is Black #235 (7 votes), An Angel at My Table #377 (4 votes) Mikey and Nicky #588 (2 votes), To Sleep With Anger #894 (1 vote)

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MV88
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Re: Sight & Sound

#100 Post by MV88 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:57 pm

movielocke wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:32 pm
JakeStewart wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:16 am
Any predictions on what films will be big climbers from ten years ago?

I’d say Dead Man.
Probably Jeanne Dielman and Beau Travail will be two of the biggest increases in ranking.
Jeanne Dielman was already pretty high up last time at #36, but I definitely wouldn’t be surprised to see it in the top 20 this time, and I would suggest it may even be a dark horse candidate for a spot in the top 10 (if any film is going to make history this year by being the first female-directed film to land in the Sight & Sound top 10, it’s most likely that one).

Beau Travail was #78 last time, and I think it too could wind up as high as the top 20. There will undoubtedly be an increased focus on female directors in general, and those might very well be the two highest ranked female-directed films, so yeah, they’re both all but guaranteed to move up.

I’ll be interested to see how other Akerman and Denis films do though. The aforementioned films are so clearly the consensus choices for their respective best that it’s hard to say if any significant number of voters will opt for any of their other films even if there’s another one they personally prefer. If there’s a concentrated effort to solidify their places in the canon, I imagine voters might strategically just vote for the consensus masterpieces to ensure they land in the highest spots possible, the maybe in 2032 we’ll see more variety in the choices for these two directors. That’s kind of what happened with Ozu in the past when people were still trying to establish him as one of the greatest in the canon, and once Tokyo Story was fully acknowledged (which I believe was in 1992 if I’m not mistaken), subsequent polls showed a wider range of appreciation for his filmography.

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