Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

A subforum to discuss film culture and criticism.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
hearthesilence
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC

Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#1 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:34 pm

Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins is killed and director Joel Souza wounded after Alec Baldwin fires a prop gun on the set of Rust. They were either rehearsing or filming when it happened.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Passages

#2 Post by domino harvey » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:37 am

Horrible, what a multifaceted tragedy for both victims and survivors. Hard to imagine how anyone but especially someone as anti-gun as Baldwin is coping with this

User avatar
Toland's Mitchell
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:42 pm

Re: Passages

#3 Post by Toland's Mitchell » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:54 am

Oh no, this is awful. I knew Halyna too. There is a long list of crew members who (or are at least supposed to) check real and fake weapons used on set to prevent these accidents. How can this happen? Shocking, tragic news.

User avatar
aox
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:02 pm
Location: nYc

Re: Passages

#4 Post by aox » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:33 pm

hearthesilence wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:34 pm
Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins is killed and director Joel Souza wounded after Alec Baldwin fires a prop gun on the set of Rust. They were either rehearsing or filming when it happened.
Looking like there might have been live ammunition in the gun.

Maybe this should be its own thread? Could even be more broadly about on-set/production safety. I just have a feeling we'll be discussing this terrible incident more as the details float to the top.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Passages

#5 Post by domino harvey » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:49 pm

aox wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:33 pm
hearthesilence wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:34 pm
Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins is killed and director Joel Souza wounded after Alec Baldwin fires a prop gun on the set of Rust. They were either rehearsing or filming when it happened.
Looking like there might have been live ammunition in the gun.

Maybe this should be its own thread? Could even be more broadly about on-set/production safety. I just have a feeling we'll be discussing this terrible incident more as the details float to the top.
If there is sufficient discussion going forward, we’ll split it off into a dedicated thread

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Passages

#6 Post by swo17 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:13 pm

The most interesting thing I've seen out of this is those questioning why the industry is still using prop guns at all given how realistically the shooting of a gun can be portrayed through CGI

User avatar
hearthesilence
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC

Re: Passages

#7 Post by hearthesilence » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:24 pm

aox wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:33 pm
Looking like there might have been live ammunition in the gun.

Maybe this should be its own thread? Could even be more broadly about on-set/production safety. I just have a feeling we'll be discussing this terrible incident more as the details float to the top.
I won't repeat the specifics until it's confirmed (I do no doubt the news outlets will be able to do that given the nature of the specifics), but allegedly there were labor issues including safety concerns leading up to this.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Passages

#8 Post by knives » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:35 pm

swo17 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:13 pm
The most interesting thing I've seen out of this is those questioning why the industry is still using prop guns at all given how realistically the shooting of a gun can be portrayed through CGI
Because they don’t want to anger Nolan. In all seriousness Robert Rodriguez makes this very point on the commentary to Once Upon a Time in Mexico basically arguing people who don’t use cgi for this as reckless idiots. I believe John Carpenter has also argued this for a few decades.

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#9 Post by swo17 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:44 pm

I can't think of a time that I've ever seen a gun shot in a movie and thought it looked fake to the point that I was no longer able to suspend my disbelief. What does bother me though is CGI fire

User avatar
senseabove
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:07 am

Re: Passages

#10 Post by senseabove » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:49 pm

hearthesilence wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:24 pm
I won't repeat the specifics until it's confirmed (I do no doubt the news outlets will be able to do that given the nature of the specifics), but allegedly there were labor issues including safety concerns leading up to this.
As reported in the LA Times now.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#11 Post by knives » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:00 pm

swo17 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:44 pm
I can't think of a time that I've ever seen a gun shot in a movie and thought it looked fake to the point that I was no longer able to suspend my disbelief. What does bother me though is CGI fire
You haven’t seen enough low budget Italian films my friend. As to fire, that and smoke are notoriously hard to animate to the point where they are often rotoscoped.

User avatar
hearthesilence
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC

Re: Passages

#12 Post by hearthesilence » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:08 pm

senseabove wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:49 pm
hearthesilence wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:24 pm
I won't repeat the specifics until it's confirmed (I do no doubt the news outlets will be able to do that given the nature of the specifics), but allegedly there were labor issues including safety concerns leading up to this.
As reported in the LA Times now.
Yup, that's pretty much the gist of it.

User avatar
aox
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:02 pm
Location: nYc

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#13 Post by aox » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:32 pm

Lots of MAGAs online calling for Baldwin to be arrested for manslaughter :roll:

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#14 Post by domino harvey » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:34 pm

aox wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:32 pm
Lots of MAGAs online calling for Baldwin to be arrested for manslaughter :roll:
No, it’s dumber, they want him charged with murder because they don’t even know the difference

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#15 Post by MichaelB » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:36 pm

Although since he's one of the producers of the film, presumably the buck for alleged safety infringements on set does ultimately stop with him?

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#16 Post by swo17 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:57 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:34 pm
aox wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:32 pm
Lots of MAGAs online calling for Baldwin to be arrested for manslaughter :roll:
No, it’s dumber, they want him charged with murder because they don’t even know the difference
Seriously? The biggest MAGA guy I know was fervently defending gun rights the day after that Las Vegas festival shooting, claiming that this was the cost of freedom, worth it at any price. When did these people start being bothered by someone they don't know no longer breathing air? And how is it possible at this point that Alec Baldwin is having a worse year than Donald Trump?

beamish14
Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 3:07 pm

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#17 Post by beamish14 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:15 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:36 pm
Although since he's one of the producers of the film, presumably the buck for alleged safety infringements on set does ultimately stop with him?

Ah, but this is when you absolve yourself of any blame and pass it onto the line/co-producer, the person who ostensibly does much of the work to ensure that sets are running smoothly.

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#18 Post by swo17 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:22 pm

knives wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:00 pm
swo17 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:44 pm
I can't think of a time that I've ever seen a gun shot in a movie and thought it looked fake to the point that I was no longer able to suspend my disbelief. What does bother me though is CGI fire
You haven’t seen enough low budget Italian films my friend. As to fire, that and smoke are notoriously hard to animate to the point where they are often rotoscoped.
I've seen plenty, and I'm still not sure I agree. Yes, someone getting hit with a bullet can often look fake, but as long as one guy points a gun at someone else and there is a bang sound, the depiction of the gun being fired passes muster for me. If I wanted to see a completely accurate presentation of gunfire, I could just go hang out at a high school

User avatar
Brian C
I hate to be That Pedantic Guy but...
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#19 Post by Brian C » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:26 pm

MichaelB wrote:Although since he's one of the producers of the film, presumably the buck for alleged safety infringements on set does ultimately stop with him?
I mean, we could just wait for the full facts to come out and then decide. No reason to have an opinion regarding blame at the moment.


RIP Film
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#21 Post by RIP Film » Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:07 pm

swo17 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:44 pm
I can't think of a time that I've ever seen a gun shot in a movie and thought it looked fake to the point that I was no longer able to suspend my disbelief.
I can, John Wick 3. Granted the whole movie is shooting.

Maybe a simpleton response to this, but how does live ammunition end up on set? I’d like to imagine the blanks are painted pink or something and given proper oversight. Absent of foul play it just seems avoidable.

User avatar
Thornycroft
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#22 Post by Thornycroft » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:59 pm

The details of this are absolutely horrifying. A single prop gun misfire should at minimum lead to an immediate review and tightening of the safety guidelines around their use on set. For the production to blithely soldier on after THREE accidental discharges is astonishingly negligent. This wasn't some freak accident, it was a production ignoring repeated, obvious warnings and red flags in order to finish the shoot within a 21-day schedule. There's no way to claim this was unforseeable when almost an entire department saw it coming and walked off the set.

There's been an unnerving uptick in reports of severe accidents and deaths on film sets in the last decade, a number of which should have already acted as a wake-up call for the industry to focus on production safety. It's galling that it should take an incident as high-profile and obviously preventable as this to finally provoke some form of reckoning.
RIP Film wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:07 pm
Maybe a simpleton response to this, but how does live ammunition end up on set? I’d like to imagine the blanks are painted pink or something and given proper oversight. Absent of foul play it just seems avoidable.
According to the AP report an AD retrieved the prop gun from the armoury cart and brought it on set under the belief it was unloaded. That leaves a lot of questions (was the armourer present at the time? was the AD making assumptions he shouldn't have? what are the normal procedures and chain of custody for bringing prop guns onto that set?) but this is clearly the result of a rushed production where safety procedures were being ignored in order to stay on schedule.

User avatar
Lemmy Caution
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:26 am
Location: East of Shanghai

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#23 Post by Lemmy Caution » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:15 am

RIP Film wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:07 pm
Maybe a simpleton response to this, but how does live ammunition end up on set? I’d like to imagine the blanks are painted pink or something and given proper oversight. Absent of foul play it just seems avoidable.
That's pretty much what I was thinking. Why would there be live ammo on set?
Really for safety, prop guns shouldn't even take live ammunition. Should be rigged so they take special smaller sized blanks, so real bullets cannot even be inserted. Further, any time a prop gun is being fired there should be no one in the sight-line in front of the gun. Even a fake gun or one with blanks shouldn't be pointed at anyone and fired on a movie set. The CGI-gun issue is interesting, but a full switch to that will take time, if it ever fully occurs.


User avatar
The Fanciful Norwegian
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:24 pm
Location: Teegeeack

Re: Halyna Hutchins' Death by a Prop Gun

#25 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:34 am

In the case of The Crow there was a projectile tip from a live round that had become stuck in the barrel weeks earlier and was ejected by the blank. That said, there's some ambiguity about the IATSE statement because "live" as used on sets can apparently refer to blanks.

I vaguely recall a Kitano movie that had some fake-looking CG gunfire, but I can't find anything through Google, and given that firearms enthusiasts will complain about any inaccuracy in a movie, that means my memory is probably playing tricks on me. Actual firearms are so heavily restricted in Japan that they can't even be used for movies, so a lot of effort has been put into creating cap-based modelguns that look convincing when used but are incapable of actually firing anything. In the past the caps used flash paper instead of actual gunpowder, which resulted in a lot of older Japanese films having very distinctive pink muzzle flashes.

Post Reply