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BrianInAtlanta wrote:Two choices here: either tiptoe around the issue of abortion while, of course, choosing not to have one or build the whole movie around the decision. I'm not arguing either for or against abortion here, it's just that you know going in that punches are going to be pulled and unreal forced decisions will be made by characters for political safety.

I'm as weary as the next person about the conservative, pro-life message of Knocked Up, but I thought this movie got it pretty right. For Juno, the decision to have an abortion initially weighs about as heavily as the decision to carry the pregnancy through. The atmosphere of the waiting room, along with the small detail that her unborn child has fingernails, is enough to make the abortion harder than the pregnancy in her mind-- certainly plausible for a sixteen year old girl to not realize that one is immensely "easier" than the other due to the temporary discomfort of the faux-Planned Parenthood environment.

Knocked Up handles the issue so much more intelligently and tastefully. It's not a conservative film. It's treated simply as the woman's choice - she doesn't want an abortion so she doesn't get one. It's a personal choice and that's the end of it. I can't think of anything more politically neutral.

In Juno, the abortion clinic scene is so crude and thoughtless it hangs like a shadow over the whole rest of the film. As people have discussed in earlier pages on this thread, the scene is stupid and haphazard. Cody punches in so many different directions. The condescending portrayal of the thickly accented Asian protester, the brat receptionist and dirty facilities and the fingernail scratching - really? That's what turns away this otherwise intelligent girl? Are we really supposed to take that seriously as a moral decision?

That scene had to be handled delicately, but like much of the film, it abandons thoughtfulness for laughs, and Cody plows through complex moral issues like a bull in a china shop.

chaddoli wrote:In Juno, the abortion clinic scene is so crude and thoughtless it hangs like a shadow over the whole rest of the film. As people have discussed in earlier pages on this thread, the scene is stupid and haphazard. Cody punches in so many different directions. The condescending portrayal of the thickly accented Asian protester, the brat receptionist and dirty facilities and the fingernail scratching - really? That's what turns away this otherwise intelligent girl? Are we really supposed to take that seriously as a moral decision?

I don't think her decision is a moral one, it's the juvenile avoidance of a situation she weighs as "worse" than the carrying the pregnancy through-- and the fingernail thing I thought was probably the most realistic aspect of the whole film. I know for myself I've made many important decisions based on small, seemingly insignificant details-- sometimes those are the most damning. Her real hesitation is of course found in this detail, but her outward and surface frustration is against the experience itself.

The only problem with arguing over whether or not Apatow & Co should have given more consideration to the issue of abortion, is that the entire point of Knocked Up is to provide the adolescent male point-of-view on the topic of child birth and its accompanying responsibility. If we ask the filmmakers to create material that would allow for a serious discourse on the subject of abortion, you would essentially derail the entire movie and thereby avoid the subject matter you originally wanted to address (juvenile 20-somethings figuring out how to become responsible, and yes sadly conformist, adults). In effect, you are asking for another movie.

I think I might have found it more offensive if Apatow used his juvenile and overly-masculine style to address the choice that a woman has to make regarding her body and the potential life that she could carry to term. Instead, he leaves the choice up to his female character, which he thankfully doesn't even attempt to interpret, and moves on to the meat of his movie, which is to explore the reaction of his male protagonist to the idea of growing up and becoming an adult. Apatow at least understands that the choice of whether or not to have an abortion is not a decision that his male protagonist should directly influence.

I'm more concerned about the fact that Juno and Waitress kind of gloss over the issue, since the dominant creative forces behind both projects are females. If neither of these artists are willing to explore the subject matter that would probably be much more personal to them than to Apatow, I'm not sure what that says about the culture within the US. I do think it is concerning that the general trend while addressing the topic of pregnancy within our American entertainment is to sidestep the issue of abortion with just a customary scene, but I don't think I can call out a specific artist for evading the issue if it makes sense within their film.

So, anyone who has seen these recent American films featuring abortion clinic visits AND Ozu's Tokyo Twilight have any comparative thoughts?

How much more apples and oranges can that be? Tokyo Twilight and this year's rash of baby films take place in completely different times, worlds, and societies. The connotation of unwanted pregnancy and abortion in these situations isn't even close. In one it's a terrible sin that the girl can't speak to anyone about, and abortion isn't so much a moral struggle over life as it is a confrontation with the associated shame.

The other depicts teen pregnancy as a regrettable but relatively common and understandable plight. Shame isn't nearly as much of an issue.

So... any comparison between the two films would strike me as more of a comparison between late 50s Japanese moors and 00s American society. I don't really see the point of that.

Andre Jurieu wrote: Apatow at least understands that the choice of whether or not to have an abortion is not a decision that his male protagonist should directly influence.

Yeah, but you'd think the Seth Rogen character would at least have an opinion about it. When his buddy tells him he can't believe they aren't getting a shmashmortion, he doesn't even respond.

Not saying I didn't find the movie funny, but I was more invested in the Leslie Mann/Paul Rudd relationship. They at least seemed like real people.

Shrew wrote:How much more apples and oranges can that be? Tokyo Twilight and this year's rash of baby films take place in completely different times, worlds, and societies. The connotation of unwanted pregnancy and abortion in these situations isn't even close. In one it's a terrible sin that the girl can't speak to anyone about, and abortion isn't so much a moral struggle over life as it is a confrontation with the associated shame.

The other depicts teen pregnancy as a regrettable but relatively common and understandable plight. Shame isn't nearly as much of an issue.

In fact, abortion was _very_ common in Japan at the time of TT. Probably more common that abortion has EVER been in the US. While an unwanted pregnancy resulting in abortion might well affect one's ability to make a top-quality marriage, it would not necessarily have had more dire consequences.

The heroine there did not fail to tell her family of her situation due to shame -- but because virtually all communication had broken down on all topics.

One could get abortions at reputable medical institutions (viz. Naruse's Sound of the Mountain), the girl in Tokyo Twilight just didn't have enough cash for this option.

This made me chuckle:

Premiere wrote:If a woman had not in fact certifiably written the picture, I might have thought that Lester Bangs had come back from the dead to pen an account of the teen years of his ideal mate.

Michael Kerpan wrote:

Shrew wrote:How much more apples and oranges can that be? Tokyo Twilight and this year's rash of baby films take place in completely different times, worlds, and societies. The connotation of unwanted pregnancy and abortion in these situations isn't even close. In one it's a terrible sin that the girl can't speak to anyone about, and abortion isn't so much a moral struggle over life as it is a confrontation with the associated shame.

The other depicts teen pregnancy as a regrettable but relatively common and understandable plight. Shame isn't nearly as much of an issue.

In fact, abortion was _very_ common in Japan at the time of TT. Probably more common that abortion has EVER been in the US. While an unwanted pregnancy resulting in abortion might well affect one's ability to make a top-quality marriage, it would not necessarily have had more dire consequences.

The heroine there did not fail to tell her family of her situation due to shame -- but because virtually all communication had broken down on all topics.

One could get abortions at reputable medical institutions (viz. Naruse's Sound of the Mountain), the girl in Tokyo Twilight just didn't have enough cash for this option.

Well, my meaning was that in Tokyo Twilight, the pregnancy is more stigmatized than the abortion, opposite how the American system works. So an accidental pregnancy can be played off as comedy in current American society, but you'd be hard pressed to do it with abortion.

You raise a good point with Akiko's family situation, but I still think that shows we're dealing with two very different worlds. In Knocked Up Katherine Heigl's character discusses the choice with her mom, and has full support from her sister. It's totally unlike the solitude Akiko's stuck in. I just don't see the point in comparing Ozu's tragedy about a trapped girl whose family offers no help with American comedies full of at least semi-supportive characters. Maybe the American films take place in a fantasy world, but its one drawing from a drastically different source. Maybe 4 Months... would fit in better here, but I have yet to see it.

I think that Juno, like Knocked up, focuses on the maturity questions that pregnancy brings and the "finding yourself" that's seemingly forced upon the main characters. If the movies were to deal directly with the issue of the choice, then they would be very different movies, for better or worse.

Carson Dyle wrote:

Andre Jurieu wrote: Apatow at least understands that the choice of whether or not to have an abortion is not a decision that his male protagonist should directly influence.

Yeah, but you'd think the Seth Rogen character would at least have an opinion about it. When his buddy tells him he can't believe they aren't getting a shmashmortion, he doesn't even respond.

I guess I got the sense that, at least within the schmushmortion scene, Ben (Seth Rogen) was too shell-shocked by the news of the pregnancy to properly process what his opinion should be regarding abortion. Essentially he seemed to be sitting on the fence, which is realistic for anyone who is receives the unexpected news of a pregnancy. Hence, Apatow allows the debate to occur out loud between Ben's friends, while Ben debates the issue in his head. In the end, based on the conversation with his father, which Apatow contrasts with Alison's conversation with her mom, he appears to warm to the idea of having a child. I think Ben hints at his opinion during the conversation with his father when he alludes to the idea that a baby would be really inconvenient for him at the moment since he is enjoying his carefree, immature lifestyle.

Carson Dyle wrote:Not saying I didn't find the movie funny, but I was more invested in the Leslie Mann/Paul Rudd relationship. They at least seemed like real people.

Yeah, I thought Pete & Debbie were also the more interesting couple, but I'm not sure they were any more or less real than Ben and Alison.

Andre Jurieu wrote:

Carson Dyle wrote:

Andre Jurieu wrote: Apatow at least understands that the choice of whether or not to have an abortion is not a decision that his male protagonist should directly influence.

Yeah, but you'd think the Seth Rogen character would at least have an opinion about it. When his buddy tells him he can't believe they aren't getting a shmashmortion, he doesn't even respond.

I guess I got the sense that, at least within the schmushmortion scene, Ben (Seth Rogen) was too shell-shocked by the news of the pregnancy to properly process what his opinion should be regarding abortion. Essentially he seemed to be sitting on the fence, which is realistic for anyone who is receives the unexpected news of a pregnancy. Hence, Apatow allows the debate to occur out loud between Ben's friends, while Ben debates the issue in his head. In the end, based on the conversation with his father, which Apatow contrasts with Alison's conversation with her mom, he appears to warm to the idea of having a child. I think Ben hints at his opinion during the conversation with his father when he alludes to the idea that a baby would be really inconvenient for him at the moment since he is enjoying his carefree, immature lifestyle.

Essentially, Ben decides to support Allison with whatever decision she makes which arguably puts the film's politics (such as they are) in the pro-choice camp. Both Ben and Allison seek out the advice of their parents who both offer wildly different takes on the event. Allison's mother encourages her to have an abortion while Ben's father embraces the idea of being a grandfather. At no point is there is a concerted effort against abortion but rather the choice to keep the baby is the result of a confused kid trying to do the right thing, if not necessarily the smart thing.

For me, Pete and Debbie were the example of two people who are completely wrong for each other, who probably should've had an abortion and dissolved the relationship. I believe Debbie alludes to the fact that her eldest daughter was conceived by accident.

domino harvey wrote:

chaddoli wrote:In Juno, the abortion clinic scene is so crude and thoughtless it hangs like a shadow over the whole rest of the film. As people have discussed in earlier pages on this thread, the scene is stupid and haphazard. Cody punches in so many different directions. The condescending portrayal of the thickly accented Asian protester, the brat receptionist and dirty facilities and the fingernail scratching - really? That's what turns away this otherwise intelligent girl? Are we really supposed to take that seriously as a moral decision?

I don't think her decision is a moral one, it's the juvenile avoidance of a situation she weighs as "worse" than the carrying the pregnancy through-- and the fingernail thing I thought was probably the most realistic aspect of the whole film. I know for myself I've made many important decisions based on small, seemingly insignificant details-- sometimes those are the most damning. Her real hesitation is of course found in this detail, but her outward and surface frustration is against the experience itself.

And there's a famous precedent for the small detail influencing drastic decisions in Anna Karenina. I doubt anybody would complain about Tolstoy doing it, so I'm willing to give Cody the benefit of the doubt here. Of course, some dislike the tendency of Russian literature to elevate sentimentality to a universal value (I think I'm paraphrasing Kundera here...).

I liked this, despite some reservations in the first few scenes, which really seemed forced and unfunny. After that, the heavily stylized dialogue settles down a bit and there is a surprising warmth that shines through the covering blanket of sarcasm and pop-culture references. Part of this can be credited to Ellen Page, who gives a great multi-layered performance, but I also see Juno as being written as a character who uses her wisecracking persona as a shield for her vulnerability. Anyway, the whole cast was great, and it was funny and touching. I certainly wasn't expecting even that much.

BrianInAtlanta wrote:

Like Knocked Up, Juno tiptoes cautiously around the unwanted pregnancy at its center

Two choices here: either tiptoe around the issue of abortion while, of course, choosing not to have one or build the whole movie around the decision. I'm not arguing either for or against abortion here, it's just that you know going in that punches are going to be pulled and unreal forced decisions will be made by characters for political safety.

I would really like to see the quirky Indiewood comedy about abortion that you're talking about here, but I wouldn't fault Juno for not being that movie. I thought Juno's decision not to have an abortion was realistically handled, considering that she was a scared teen dealing with a pretty unwelcoming environment at the clinic, with no support around her since she hadn't told anybody at that point. Frankly, if the film had included a serious consideration of abortion at this point, which I don't think it could have without totally breaking tone, it probably would've seemed like anti-abortion preaching, especially if the narrative progressed the same otherwise. This way, Juno makes a snap decision without much thought, the way teens often do, and then follows through on it, sometimes with difficulty but ultimately without much regret. The film also provides an interesting commentary in the fact that Juno is harassed and preached at when she goes for an abortion, but is then even more ostracized by her classmates when she doesn't go for an abortion. The film is a bit too light to really be thought of as a serious look at the issue, but it does consistently treat teen pregnancy as a Catch-22 dilemma for the affected teen.

I've found myself defending this movie quite a lot lately, to the point that it's made me realize I like it a whole lot more than I initially figured.

chaddoli wrote:In Juno, the abortion clinic scene is so crude and thoughtless it hangs like a shadow over the whole rest of the film. As people have discussed in earlier pages on this thread, the scene is stupid and haphazard. Cody punches in so many different directions. The condescending portrayal of the thickly accented Asian protester, the brat receptionist and dirty facilities and the fingernail scratching - really? That's what turns away this otherwise intelligent girl? Are we really supposed to take that seriously as a moral decision?

I haven't seen the film so I'm gleaning from the thread, forgive me if I'm wrong, that knowledge of the prenatal development (fingernail) is the key bit in the list of details (fingernail scratching). Have you talked to mothers about what their pregnancy was like, or to women who've had abortions or who've faced thinking about it? I can only say it's incredibly common to not just weigh in such child development considerations but to seek out that knowledge in advance, and end up attaching huge emotional significance to it. Genetic disorder screening tests get scheduled as early as possible in part because of the emotional effect of knowing about things much like fingernail growth and the impact of those emotions on making rational decisions. Watch a pregnant woman thumb through "What To Expect When You're Expecting" for the first time - minds get blown every few pages. Worlds turn on much smaller things than this. As a basis for a moral decision, I would think it not just believable but commonplace.

domino harvey wrote:I've found myself defending this movie quite a lot lately, to the point that it's made me realize I like it a whole lot more than I initially figured.

My biggest complaint about this movie is no longer the script but the fact that I cannot stop hearing about it from people I work with. So often recently people have come up to me and said something along the lines of, "I saw Juno this weekend. Have you seen it? What do you think?" And I have to come up with something like, "oh, fine performances, sweet ending, mumble mumble trail off..." Regardless of its quality, this movie is simply inescapable at the moment. Its ubiquity is having the opposite effect that you describe, dh, in that I'm starting to hate it more and more every time someone mentions it to me.

As I keep saying, I'm aware of the fact that my dislike for the film is at least partially related to its reception - the rapturous reviews, the near-legendary first screening at Telluride (which I ushered). I found the movie really counterfeit and emotionally hollow and seeing other people love it makes me resent it even more.

After seeing this film, I repeat my other post in this thread...any programmer with some guts should double-feature this film with L'enfant.

If there was ever a better example than L'enfant for why the use of music in films like Juno is so dishonest and downright deplorable, I'd love to know...

L'enfant and Juno are two completely different films, agreed, but so what? Neither is even remotely similar in terms of tone or intent, it's unfair and naive to compare them.

Not similar in intent? I'd suggest you rewatch L'enfant

You can read far more into both my words and L'enfant than your picture, so what are you waiting for?

Soothsayer wrote:If there was ever a better example than L'enfant for why the use of music in films like Juno is so dishonest and downright deplorable, I'd love to know...

Out of curiosity, is it the type of music in Juno or just the use of music at all?