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So does the available UHD of The Double Life of Veronique still best the Criterion blu? I know Criterion will probably upgrade it themselves, but I don't want to sell mine off til I know there's a better option out there

I watched it last night and thought it was pretty stunning, but I recognize that's not a technically based opinion!

rrenault wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:04 am is The Seventh Seal truly reference quality and not just a solid upgrade in comparison to Criterion’s 4K-sourced Blu-ray in the Bergman set? Where do we draw the line there?

I totally forgot about the 4k sourced BD for the Bergman set so thank you for reminding me. So,

The Seventh Seal (Criterion/BFI) (if compared to all pre-2018 BDs)

The Seventh Seal (Criterion/BFI) (if compared to the 2018 Bergman box-set exclusive BD)

I've also listed the Criterion as the superior import. Eddie asked about the perceived issues with the subs on the BFI and someone replied on Blu-Ray.com.

soundchaser wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:59 pm I watched it last night and thought it was pretty stunning, but I recognize that's not a technically based opinion!

It's good enough for me!

yoloswegmaster wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:21 pm

MichaelB wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:20 am I’ve hesitated over the Three Colours trilogy - White aside, I’m not a massive fan, and £70 seems a lot to pay for just the three 4K features, since I already have the old BDs.

Can anyone sell me on the bonus BD in the set?

Someone who has the Curzon said that most of the short films on the bonus disc have been restored and gave a rundown on the masters used for each sort:

Now that absolutely has sold it to me, and with a vengeance - huge thanks for this.

So I guess we don’t yet have a final call on whether the various English-friendly Kieslowski 4Ks are reference quality or not?

None of them seem to be perfect as the Veronique UK 4k also has clipped highlights like the Three Colors set and any forthcoming Criterion might have low pass filtering which puts some people off. But, but, but... the underlying restorations are amazing and the encoding issues on each set are rather minor. Red is better encoded on the Curzon but it also looks good on the Criterion in Dolby Vision and the Criterions of all 3 films have no clipped highlights (but they all have low pass filtering instead). When people compared the US and UK caps of Red and said Red looks a lot more detailed, the US caps might have been from the HDR playback.

So, there are little flaws unique to each set's presentations that I don't think there is a clear winner for the video. It'll come down to what shortcomings are likely to bother you more and those might be offset by which set works out more cheaply for you and which set has the more overall comprehensive features. The latter I'm not sure about since I don't have the bonus specs for both at hand. If both sets fall just short of reference quality for the image, they're still very good and considerable upgrades from the decade-old BDs, especially Blue. Same goes for Veronique UK. Criterion might go one better if Pixelogic encodes the film very well in both HDR and DV and doesn't apply low pass filtering.

Probably fairest to say they're all solid upgrades and whichever one of the Colors sets has the more comprehensive extras will get listed as the superior import.

Can you link to the details about the Curzon discs having clipped highlights? With them using the same masters there is zero reason this should happen, especially with Dolby Vision in play.

I'd also be interested to see what one of these allegedly clipped highlights looks like when played back on a proper 4K Dolby Vision setup.

I haven't had a chance to watch Véronique properly yet, but what I've seen thus far has looked pretty amazing - a very marked advance on everything I've seen bar my original 35mm encounter back in 1991.

EddieLarkin wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:35 pm Can you link to the details about the Curzon discs having clipped highlights? With them using the same masters there is zero reason this should happen, especially with Dolby Vision in play.

MichaelB wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:16 pm I'd also be interested to see what one of these allegedly clipped highlights looks like when played back on a proper 4K Dolby Vision setup.

I think Finch means compression artifacts in the highlights, like here on the reflection on the windshield in Red: https://postimg.cc/SnQ1ZMb6

More caps from Curzon here: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=101

Finch wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:47 am When people compared the US and UK caps of Red and said Red looks a lot more detailed, the US caps might have been from the HDR playback.

The US caps are definitely from the HDR10 base layer without any FEL information. I tried asking on BR how well the EL helps restore low pass filtered detail, but kind of got conflicting opinions:
- https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=104
- https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=106

So is the Curzon Three Colors set about the same as Criterion's in image quality, only with some better special features? (I realize we don't typically use that to weigh releases in this thread, but Michael B seemed pretty excited about the Curzon extras)

AxeYou wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 2:14 pm

EddieLarkin wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:35 pm Can you link to the details about the Curzon discs having clipped highlights? With them using the same masters there is zero reason this should happen, especially with Dolby Vision in play.

MichaelB wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 1:16 pm I'd also be interested to see what one of these allegedly clipped highlights looks like when played back on a proper 4K Dolby Vision setup.

I think Finch means compression artifacts in the highlights, like here on the reflection on the windshield in Red: https://postimg.cc/SnQ1ZMb6

Ah ok, that makes more sense and is very common in poorly encoded HDR discs (the theory being, encoding for SDR allowed for a low bit rate in bright areas as fine detail and grain is typically clipped away, and this has stupidly carried over to HDR encoding parameters, even though the opposite is true, that fine detail and grain ARE visible in the highlights, and thus need a high bit rate. So you'll often see the bit rate plummet during bright moments, and thus the grain turn blocky).

Amongst the Three Colours 4K sets the Curzon seems the front runner solely due to the inclusion of the newly restored shorts. In terms of best picture quality, it's pick your poison time: Criterion's filtering of the grain, basically an acknowledgment that their authoring house is too incompetent to compress such ultra fine grained sources (and complete anathema to someone like David M, I would guess). Or, no filtering but a typical crap compression job resulting in moments of blocko-vision, already seen in the Potemkine release. I'd be most interested to see if the compression of the Curzon discs is quite as bad as the Potemkine.

I think neo nical (?) on the other forum said in his review of Colors and Veronique he regarded the compression on the Curzon better than the Potemkin whose only saving grace seems to be it's the only set with the BDs being from the 4k restoration (but I don't know if their BDs have English subs?) while Criterion and Curzon included the 2011 BDs (why?).

The potemkine is also the only one with the OG audio. The others only have the 5.1 remix

Frustrating how neither can get it right. Not just the picture issues, but no original audio too. I'll probably just hold on to the Criterion edition - I think filtering would bother me less than macroblocking, which to me is most distracting.

Maybe you can play them like the Flaming Lips Zaireeka. One blu ray hooked up to the Potemkine playing the mono audio, while the Curzon picture plays out of the actual TV.

What mono audio? The original theatrical format was Dolby Stereo, and I've just double-checked this by confirming the "DOLBY STEREO DANS CERTAINS SALLES" ident nestling amongst the end credits.

Which is why I'm finding it hard to get especially exercised about this.

UPDATE: Out of curiosity, I ripped the 5.1 track from the Double Life of Véronique Blu-ray and had a look at the configuration, and it's essentially 4.1 - the two rear channels appear to be as close to identical as makes no difference. Dolby Stereo is 4.0, so I suspect what we have here is a reproduction of the original left/centre/right/rear configuration. The subwoofer isn't completely inactive, but it's only pressed into service very occasionally.

That said, when the subwoofer shows up in Veronique, it's VERY noticeable.

You could always switch it off if it's bothering you.

No no, don’t get me wrong: it was very effective for the moments it was used. It was just one of those things that stood out — not in a bad way.

Midnight Run (Shout) (good encode especially compared to their previous BD, but the 2.0 audio is a downmix)

Picnic at Hanging Rock (Second Sight): unfortunately disappointing. As per the comments in the Second Sight thread, the restoration team applied a lot of DNR reportedly at Peter Weir's request and then added a layer of artificial grain on top, giving the darker scenes in particular a processed look. Unfortunately, this looks like this is the best we're going to get on this particular format. I can't see another boutique label requesting and getting access to the 4k raw files, and even if they did, would they release it and risk upsetting Weir?

brief explanation by kmhofmann of the low pass filtering seen on the Criterion Three Colors 4ks (I recall posters saying other discs had it too but can't recall off-hand which titles were also affected)

The Haunting of Julia/Full Circle (BFI) (FiM encode, more extras than the Shout)

The Haunting of Julia (Shout) (good encode)

It's my understanding that the audio source is inherently flawed but feel free to correct me if you're very familiar with the film and think it should have sounded better on either or both releases.

Geoff reviews Deep Impact.

Bad compression on the HDR10 layer, good-ish in Dolby Vision

Caps comparing the Curzon, Potemkine and Criterion Three Colours: Red

It's not perfect but based on those the Curzon is easily the best of the 3 for compression, and so with the inclusion of the new restored shorts is the clear winner. Ironically despite the filtering the Criterion still looks very rough compression wise.