criterionforum.org

Bring it on. [-(

zedz wrote:

mfunk wrote:With all due respect: shut up. After all the calibration I've done on my television, don't tell me there's a problem with it because you're the only person with no subtitle issues.

Given the recent evidence to the contrary, I guess now dwk gets to tell mfunk to shut up. "With all due respect," of course.

Nah.

knives wrote:What I was trying to say, poorly I assume, was that if they haven't changed their subs for DVD why not just dup them in for the blus?

The different resolution would be problematic if using the DVD font.

I haven't had any issues with the subtitles either, for what it's worth. Haven't watched 8.5 on Blu-ray yet, though. If there were any video grabs of particularly egregious examples, I'd be curious to see them.

Of course, I'll be paying more attention next time I watch a CC Blu-ray.

zitherstrings wrote:

movielocke wrote: last time I saw the bicycle thieves the print was such that about 60% of the subtitles were nonexistent because they were over white&gray image, occasionally, you'd know there was a subtitle there because a few letters or word from the line(s) would extend over a darker section. Rashomon was another that was similarly problematic on a print, but moreso because the subtitles were very sparse in translating the dialogue.

Saw Rashomon on many TVs from bigHD to smallSD. Never had a problem. Something fishy here!

I was speaking about watching a film print in a theatre, just making a relatively useless general comment that subtitles are generally worse in theatrical than they are on dvd or blu.

I've also never had any trouble reading the Blu-ray subtitles, whether on my dad's plasma or my computer's LCD monitor, neither or which have had any special calibration. In fact I thought they've been such an obvious improvement over the DVD subtitles (managing both greater clarity and less intrusion at the same time) that I'm surprised to hear others have had such trouble. If this is something Criterion needs to look into, I hope they can find a happy compromise.

No problems with blu-ray subtitles here either. In fact, they look fantastic and are very easy to read compared to dvd subtitles.

To reiterate, my main complaints against the Blu-ray subtitles are only against those films where there is a strong white/black contrast. The M Blu-ray suffered from unreadable subtitles in my opinion. This is a simple comparison that I sent to Criterion, to help convey what I am talking about, based on DVD Beaver's review of the Yojimbo Blu-ray.



I have a feeling that this thread is just going to go back and forth, between those who don't seem to have a problem, and those who do.

Hopefully this image will help clarify one of the problems with the thinner framed font, against a black and white image. I feel that if you are spending more time trying to read the subtitles, you are missing out on the film's imagery. Sure, I can read the subtitles on both above, but when the image is moving behind it, and I'm trying to move my eyes from the images, to the subtitles, and back again, I'm missing out on some of the dialogue.

It's better than that awful yellow subtitle.

Cinephrenic wrote:It's better than that awful yellow subtitle.

I'll agree with that sentiment. The yellow subtitles are the worst.

I don't see a problem if you're actually viewing that on a TV not as a tiny capture. Deceptive.

I guess I had better not upgrade Yojimbo/Sanjuro. I _would_ have trouble with subtitles that look anything like the ones in RyanG's screenshot.

I just recently watched Yojimbo and Sanjuro on blu and didn't have any trouble- it's worth remembering that it makes a difference when the background is moving.

How difficult (and costly) would it be for companies (Criterion included) to provide a secondary set of subs for people who have worse than average visual acuity?

Michael Kerpan wrote:I guess I had better not upgrade Yojimbo/Sanjuro. I _would_ have trouble with subtitles that look anything like the ones in RyanG's screenshot.

He's deceiving. A TV is not a couple inches wide.

No problem at full size. Probably still smaller than your TV, too.

zitherstrings wrote:I don't see a problem if you're actually viewing that on a TV not as a tiny capture. Deceptive.

not really. I've had some significant problems w/ subs on Marienbad, M, and Wages of Fear. The slimmer font w/ barely any outline most certainly causes problems in lighter scenes. In Marienbad, for instance, they were unreadable when they were on a patio with a very busy railing along it. It was distracting and something I haven't been able to understand why they do it....what can possibly be wrong with giving them a more pronounced outline?

zitherstrings wrote:He's deceiving. A TV is not a couple inches wide.

If this is intended as snark, it's a bit amusing. If not...

For the record, I've not had a problem with Yojimbo and Sanjuro. 8 1/2 has been the main offender of the Crit Blus I have.

Maybe we're all just imagining these things.

Michael Kerpan wrote:

zitherstrings wrote:He's deceiving. A TV is not a couple inches wide.

If this is intended as snark, it's a bit amusing. If not...

Resizing to a tiny screen shot like he did is deceiving. The border is thin and partially lost when squeezed. Doesn't mean it's not clear at real size.

zitherstrings -- Do you think the people who are reporting problems are lying?

This is a case where, if lots of people are seeing a problem, there IS some sort of problem.

My two cents, no problem with the subtitles. I actually watched Sanjuro last night. And thoroughly enjoyed my experience. So, no problems here.

Napier wrote:My two cents, no problem with the subtitles. I actually watched Sanjuro last night. And thoroughly enjoyed my experience. So, no problems here.

No problem here either with Seventh Seal, Wages of Fear, Pierrot, or Che.

I suppose there's a fine line between making the subtitles readable and not making them so pronounced that they distract from the picture; I've always hated the player-generated subtitles on DVD with their ugly, blocky fonts. I think that CC's on the right side of the line with their Blu-rays, but some apparently disagree.

jedgeco wrote:

Napier wrote:My two cents, no problem with the subtitles. I actually watched Sanjuro last night. And thoroughly enjoyed my experience. So, no problems here.

No problem here either with Seventh Seal, Wages of Fear, Pierrot, or Che.

I suppose there's a fine line between making the subtitles readable and not making them so pronounced that they distract from the picture; I've always hated the player-generated subtitles on DVD with their ugly, blocky fonts. I think that CC's on the right side of the line with their Blu-rays, but some apparently disagree.

Also, I just got new Eclipse thermal curtains for my movie room. You'd be surprised at how much just a little glare can affect things.

Napier wrote:My two cents, no problem with the subtitles. I actually watched Sanjuro last night. And thoroughly enjoyed my experience. So, no problems here.

Had no issues with the subs on the Sanjuro Blu or any other b/w film on a Crit Blu for that matter, either.

Napier wrote:Also, I just got new Eclipse thermal curtains for my movie room.

Now that's what I call brand loyalty. My Essential Arthouse throw rugs just can't compete.

As for the subtitle issue, I haven't struck any problem with Criterion Blus, but I don't doubt others might have. The problem is, it's all too easy to err on the side of legibility. That is, after all, the rationale for yellow subtitles, and there are even people out there (though probably not in here) who prefer them for that reason.