criterionforum.org

zedz wrote: The problem is, it's all too easy to err on the side of legibility. That is, after all, the rationale for yellow subtitles, and there are even people out there (though probably not in here) who prefer them for that reason.

Count me in the minority that prefers the yellow subtitles. Although nowadays, just about every subtitling hue and font I've run across is pretty legible...I'm older and my eyesight has never been the best. Older issued DVDs, particularly where the subtitles were burned in, would be utter hell to read for me.

Still, the yellow subtitles never bothered me, in fact, I welcomed them because of their legibility.

zedz wrote:I STAND CORRECTED

That yellow needs to be a tad brighter...against that powder blue background, it makes me dizzy. 8-[

RIGHTY-O
(now I feel dizzy!)

EDIT: Seeing it posted - definitely worse. I guess you need to avoid powder-blue films as well.

Michael Kerpan wrote:I guess I had better not upgrade Yojimbo/Sanjuro. I _would_ have trouble with subtitles that look anything like the ones in RyanG's screenshot.

MK, I would have thought you'd know these two films well enough by now not to need any subtitles

Also, upon reflection, I kind of agree with MK. I have no problem with any of the CC subtitles I've seen, but looking at those captures I forgot how much stronger the CC DVD subtitles were, so I could see how it might be difficult for others? It would indeed be nice if CC offered a second set for people that are a bit harder of seeing, even if I do prefer the subtler ones myself.

You know....seeing the people on Criterion's facebook page and at DVDTalk in the B&N sale threads post their pictures of all their Criterion blu-rays, it seems to me that a lot of people out there have only started buying Criterion films because they are on blu ray. in other words, they are not collectors of the films, but collectors of the format. for some reason this bugs me, but I can't quite decide why. Is this a figment of my imagination, or have others noticed this apparent trend? It is interesting to me, and I guess I should be happy that it helps Criterion make more money and allow them to release more movies I love, but I also find it disturbingly materialistic and kind of demeaning in some way. I just get the sense that a lot of these guys have become obsessed with buying blu-rays....but I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. I haven't seen one person post a picture of their Criterion DVDs though....they are always posting pics of their precious blu-rays.


and this is nothing against the format - I own around 35 or so on blu...but that is out of the over 200 total and continue to buy sDVD releases just as, if not more, frequently when I am fairly sure there's no chance of an upgrade anytime soon.

HistoryProf wrote:You know....seeing the people on Criterion's facebook page and at DVDTalk in the B&N sale threads post their pictures of all their Criterion blu-rays, it seems to me that a lot of people out there have only started buying Criterion films because they are on blu ray. in other words, they are not collectors of the films, but collectors of the format.

While I agree that some aren't collecting the films, I don't think it's the BluRay format they are collecting, but rather the Criterion brand. Which a lot of us do to some extent or another...after all, we've devoted an internet forum primarily to the brand.

To some degree, I think brand loyalty helped me to expand my cinematic horizons- there are a number of Criterions I blind-bought that I probably wouldn't have considered otherwise, and which have since become favorites.

To me, if someone buys a movie because it's a Criterion or it's a blu-ray or whatever silly reason and then actually bothers to watch and engage with it, that's a positive thing.

HistoryProf wrote: in other words, they are not collectors of the films, but collectors of the format. for some reason this bugs me, but I can't quite decide why.

RetroGamerDaz unpacks the trend (Criterion discussed at 3:15)

I'm a bit mixed on the issue. I've decided to stop myself from buying DVDs that have come out before 2010- especially since four of the upcoming Bluray upgrades were DVDs that I purchased in the last year (two at the last sale)... On top of that their Bluray upgrades now seem like dart throwing at a big list.

I also see the trend of putting technology before content. I'd be more worried about it but it gives me something to talk about with my David Bowie obsessed friend. It did get Mr. RetroGamerDaz to see and enjoy El Norte and The Wages of Fear, so it can't be too bad. Best to have more people on board... just as long as they stick to the Bluray.com forums when they want time to discuss the films.

Tribe wrote:

HistoryProf wrote:You know....seeing the people on Criterion's facebook page and at DVDTalk in the B&N sale threads post their pictures of all their Criterion blu-rays, it seems to me that a lot of people out there have only started buying Criterion films because they are on blu ray. in other words, they are not collectors of the films, but collectors of the format.

While I agree that some aren't collecting the films, I don't think it's the BluRay format they are collecting, but rather the Criterion brand. Which a lot of us do to some extent or another...after all, we've devoted an internet forum primarily to the brand.

This is my experience. Most pictures I have seen of what people buy include both formats.

Like Minkin above, I have also stopped buying Criterion DVDs out of fear that a few months later a title I just bought will get the Blu-ray upgrade. I wouldn't be surprised if many Criterion fans are doing the same. But yeah, I agree that brand loyalty has more to do with it than format loyalty. I also have blind bought many films from Criterion during these sales. I've done the same with Flicker Alley, Blue Underground, and other companies that give quality treatment to their titles. If a lesser company (like Facets) released these same titles, I would not be so quick to buy them. But of course, I wouldn't buy these titles if they didn't hold some interest for me in the first place. There are plenty of Criterion (and FA, and BU) titles that I have no interest in at all.

Tribe wrote:

HistoryProf wrote:You know....seeing the people on Criterion's facebook page and at DVDTalk in the B&N sale threads post their pictures of all their Criterion blu-rays, it seems to me that a lot of people out there have only started buying Criterion films because they are on blu ray. in other words, they are not collectors of the films, but collectors of the format.

While I agree that some aren't collecting the films, I don't think it's the BluRay format they are collecting, but rather the Criterion brand. Which a lot of us do to some extent or another...after all, we've devoted an internet forum primarily to the brand.

well clearly it is of course brand-driven - as I am one of many who came to love all these amazing films because of my discovery of Criterion a decade ago. I guess I was just trying to sort out the peculiar new strain of that zeroed-in collecting buzz that is more focused on the format than the brand. It just seems like a lot of folks have become obsessed with blu-ray, and then see the huge B&N sale threads on bluray.com and DVDTalk and want in on the action. You can see it over there with daily posts from people asking "so I have Bottle Rocket...what else should I get?" kind of posts, and then they post pictures of piles w/ Red Shoes, M, Seventh Seal, Kagemusha, Revancche, 400 Blows, etc etc - all of which they bought simply because they were 70% off w/ coupons.

Like I said, i'm not sure what bugs me about it - and i'm fully prepared to accept that it's a me problem rather than a they problem - but it seems different than the typical Criterion brand fetishism that has created completists over the years. it's just something that's been percolating as I peruse forums and facebook in particular - though the latter is getting more and more insufferable. But that's another post for another thread....

HistoryProf wrote: well clearly it is of course brand-driven - as I am one of many who came to love all these amazing films because of my discovery of Criterion a decade ago. I guess I was just trying to sort out the peculiar new strain of that zeroed-in collecting buzz that is more focused on the format than the brand. It just seems like a lot of folks have become obsessed with blu-ray, and then see the huge B&N sale threads on bluray.com and DVDTalk and want in on the action. You can see it over there with daily posts from people asking "so I have Bottle Rocket...what else should I get?" kind of posts, and then they post pictures of piles w/ Red Shoes, M, Seventh Seal, Kagemusha, Revancche, 400 Blows, etc etc - all of which they bought simply because they were 70% off w/ coupons.

Don't forget that Criterion's Facebook page is a relatively newer phenomena than this Forum...and the Facebook format lends itself to a host of "me too" postings, particularly where self-discipline and relatively zero moderation is inherent in the Facebook format. Keep in mind also that the Facebook Criterion page is a marketing tool for Criterion, so Criterion isn't going to dissuade those who like posting pictures of their collections with little emphasis on the movies.

it's makes sense that some people would try to collect all the criterion blurays, before 2010, there were only about twenty bluray titles, so it's easy to build up a "complete" bluray collection. trying to collect the entire series on dvd is a 10,000$ investment if you get them cheaply at major sales, not to mention that trying to fill in a collection backlog with 550 entries is a pretty daunting propostion.

So many people would easily form the conclusion, "I'll never be able to collect all the dvds because I came too late to finding criterion, but I CAN get in with bluray on the ground floor and keep up with the releases!"

Criterion is also probably drawing a higher proprotion of HD capable classic film lovers than they had in the past because Criterion makes up at least 50% of the entire pre 1950 HD region 1 market. They've more releases from teh first half of cinema than all the majors combined.

movielocke wrote: Criterion is also probably drawing a higher proprotion of HD capable classic film lovers than they had in the past because Criterion makes up at least 50% of the entire pre 1950 HD region 1 market. They've more releases from teh first half of cinema than all the majors combined.

No on all accounts. Kino alone has them pretty much matched and Disney and Warners both have released at least within the same ballpark as Criterion.

Due to Criterion's nature as a publisher of high quality work on films, I think they should be the first ones to drop the DVD format. At least they could use the extra effort to get catalog titles out on Blu.

knives wrote:

movielocke wrote: Criterion is also probably drawing a higher proprotion of HD capable classic film lovers than they had in the past because Criterion makes up at least 50% of the entire pre 1950 HD region 1 market. They've more releases from teh first half of cinema than all the majors combined.

No on all accounts. Kino alone has them pretty much matched and Disney and Warners both have released at least within the same ballpark as Criterion.

Here are the Blu-ray numbers on pre-1950's releases for the four studios mentioned, by decade:

Kino (7)
1920's - Battleship Potemkin, The Black Pirate, Metropolis, The General, Sherlock Jr., Three Ages, Streamboat Bill Jr.

Criterion (8)
1910's - Bucking Broadway
1930's - Stagecoach, M, The Mikado, Modern Times
1940's - Black Narcissus, The Red Shoes, The Third Man

Disney (5)
1930's - Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
1940's - Bambi (2011), Dumbo (U.S. release postponed, but available in Mexico), Fantasia, Pinocchio

WB (8)
1930's - The Adventures of Robin Hood, Gone with the Wind, King Kong, Mutiny on the Bounty, The Wizard of Oz
1940's - Casablanca, The Maltese Falcon, Treasure of the Sierra Madre

Edit: Added individual titles

Okay, but surely Criterion is drawing a huge crowd of people that love British postwar films from the 40s in high definition.

Also, assuming you're counting releases and not just "in-print titles", then CC should get a whopping 3 for the 40s.

Compared to 12 for the 50s and 17 for the 60s, it's a bit unfortunate, but I imagine from the 50s on, films are mostly in better condition and thus more likely targets for Blu-ray.

I wonder if Criterion will ever put out another non-BR mainline title? Will Eclipse become the place to put films that they can't justify an HD release for?

It does seem like there was sort of a change in philosophy from The Magician onwards- now, even titles that would have been lower tier, $30 price point ones before are on blu. I hope they get to a point where they can offer $30 price point blus before too long- it bothers me a bit that there isn't a pricing distinction between something as feature-heavy as Modern Times and something as feature-light as The Mikado.

edit: Also, should Bucking Broadway count towards Criterion's total?

I'm sure at some point the price will drop. Their early DVDs were, with a few exceptions, were $40 a pop, whether they had features or not (I think it was more dependent on whether they were dual-layer or not)

matrixschmatrix wrote:Also, should Bucking Broadway count towards Criterion's total?

I think so. Feature film in HD (though 1080i). Counts just as much as Kino's release of Three Ages, IMO.

Cash Flagg wrote:

knives wrote:

movielocke wrote:Criterion is also probably drawing a higher proprotion of HD capable classic film lovers than they had in the past because Criterion makes up at least 50% of the entire pre 1950 HD region 1 market. They've more releases from teh first half of cinema than all the majors combined.

No on all accounts. Kino alone has them pretty much matched and Disney and Warners both have released at least within the same ballpark as Criterion.

Here are the Blu-ray numbers on pre-1950's releases for the four studios mentioned, by decade:

Kino (7)
1920's - Battleship Potemkin, The Black Pirate, Metropolis, The General, Sherlock Jr., Three Ages, Streamboat Bill Jr.

Criterion (8)
1910's - Bucking Broadway
1930's - Stagecoach, M, The Mikado, Modern Times
1940's - Black Narcissus, The Red Shoes, The Third Man

Disney (5)
1930's - Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
1940's - Bambi (2011), Dumbo (U.S. release postponed, but available in Mexico), Fantasia, Pinocchio

WB (7)
1930's - The Adventures of Robin Hood, Gone with the Wind, King Kong, Mutiny on the Bounty
1940's - Casablanca, The Maltese Falcon, Treasure of the Sierra Madre

Edit: Added individual titles

For completest sake, here's the only other 4 releases for pre-50s feature films in the US on Blu-ray:

Fox (1)
1940s - Miracle on 34th Street

Koch Vision (1)
1930s - Gulliver's Travels (totally botched release, however)

Legend (1)
1930s - March of the Wooden Soldiers (Babes in Toyland)

Paramount (1)
1940s - It's a Wonderful Life

As for why there are so few, I think it comes down to 4 key factors:

1. Condition of materials. Most films from this era simply are not ready for HD releases at the high quality people expect.

2. 1.33:1 aspect ratio. People don't like unused space on their TVs, and now that they have 16:9 TVs they want widescreen films.

3. Color vs. Black & White. People have a bias against Black & White, and they also don't understand the benefit to the greyscale that HD provides. Kudos to WB for putting out so many B&W 1.33:1 films. No other major studio has bothered to touch a pre-50s B&W film without a colorized version alongside it. Also notice that the one and only releases from Fox, Paramount and Legend have Christmas tie-ins.

4. An aging demographic. I'm 31 and grew up seeing these old films on TV. My nieces and nephews are 5-11 and never see old movies on TV. The only way they see any of these films is if I sit them down to watch them specifically.

Jun-Dai wrote:I wonder if Criterion will ever put out another non-BR mainline title? Will Eclipse become the place to put films that they can't justify an HD release for?

Isn't is still cost/materials/time prohibitive for them to put out projects on the level of the von Sternberg box and the War Trilogy on Blu?

captveg wrote:For completest sake, here's the only other 4 releases for pre-50s feature films in the US on Blu-ray

The Wizard Of Oz comes to mind as another one not being listed.