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Thanks for the explanation, guys.

It's funny how you get the opposite (but essentially same?) problem with Russian's complete absence of articles – as I understand it, there's no "correct" option when choosing between translating Zerkalo as either "Mirror" or "The Mirror" (as various labels have alternatively opted for). If the decision is solely based on what sounds more natural to English speakers' ears (at least, in terms of titling conventions), then it would make far more sense to me to go with the second option there ... whereas Gang of Four seems more of an edge case. Agreed that "The Love on the Ground" would be ridiculous.

Note that all recent French-language Cohen Film Collection releases have non-removable subtitles that are actually 'burnt' (encoded) into the picture. Just saying that this seems to be a new (utterly despicable) company policy that might also hit this release...

furbicide wrote:Interesting to see the addition of the "the" to the title – I don't think that's ever been present on any English-language releases, but it does seem the more literal translation. Does anyone know why it was left off to begin with?

(I note that L'amour par terre has always been translated as Love on the Ground and not The Love on the Ground, so maybe there are some subtleties in French article usage that I'm missing here... )

We wouldn't translate Love on the Ground as Amour par terre, which is both weird and not very proper French. That's why this English title would be fine for it.

"The" in English is kind of giving a more specific aspect to the noun, almost close to This or That, while Le/La/Les in French usually is more generic, indeed because it can be just down to "proper" French. In English, it tends to be the opposite with titles, and they tend to skip pronouns as much as possible as if you were paying for using them. I always get a good laugh with some newspapers' articles' titles, once I finally managed to understand what they mean.

mhofmann wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:18 am Note that all recent French-language Cohen Film Collection releases have non-removable subtitles that are actually 'burnt' (encoded) into the picture. Just saying that this seems to be a new (utterly despicable) company policy that might also hit this release...

I'm genuinely shocked to hear that – almost as archaic in this day and age as a pan-and-scan release, and certainly not what you'd expect from a serious label. Has anyone gotten in touch to complain?

zedz wrote:French articles are far more mandatory than English ones, so there are always usage considerations in translating them.

See also the very common practice of including articles within formal modes of address - for instance, Monsieur le maire, which would sound absurd in literal translation (“Mister the mayor”).

furbicide wrote:It's funny how you get the opposite (but essentially same?) problem with Russian's complete absence of articles – as I understand it, there's no "correct" option when choosing between translating Zerkalo as either "Mirror" or "The Mirror" (as various labels have alternatively opted for).

Not just Russian but Slavic languages in general - so it’s the opposite of the situation in French, where you have to decide whether or not to add articles that aren’t present in the original.

For instance, a literal translation of the title of Andrzej Wajda’s first film is just Generation, which looks weird in English because it’s ambiguous in a way that it wouldn’t be in Polish - where I believe pokolenie can only refer to the noun “generation”, whereas in English it could equally refer to the process of generation.

So this is a good example of a title that arguably needed an article added for clarification - and I think going indefinite rather than definite was contextually correct (as it’s ultimately about a particular generation of young people who grew up fighting Nazis, with no implied claim that they’re the definitive generation).

Does the Potemkine release have English subtitles?

I contacted them back in August and was told no, unfortunately (same for La belle noiseuse).

Calvin wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:25 am Does the Potemkine release have English subtitles?

I can confirm that it doesn't.

furbicide wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:43 am

mhofmann wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:18 am Note that all recent French-language Cohen Film Collection releases have non-removable subtitles that are actually 'burnt' (encoded) into the picture. Just saying that this seems to be a new (utterly despicable) company policy that might also hit this release...

I'm genuinely shocked to hear that – almost as archaic in this day and age as a pan-and-scan release, and certainly not what you'd expect from a serious label. Has anyone gotten in touch to complain?

I have tried but couldn't even find a proper contact email address for their home video (non-streaming) division.

Completely agree that this is an utterly shocking tactic that shouldn't happen anymore.
I fear for the worst with this title.

From what I understand though at least one of the other Rivette Potemkine blu-rays does contain English subtitles though. Unless blu-ray.com is wrong. Which is possible!

No, the Potemkine blurays DO NOT contain english subtitles but only french ones for the deaf mutes.

But then again, don't you think that anyone truly interested in the art of film should bother to learn at least some basic French? Or should such basic learning not necessarily go along with seeing, let's say, "Le Mépris" some multiple times (at least 20 x is required IMO) and be just a normal part of your (anyone's) cinematographic upbringing?

Basic French isn't going to get you through a Jacques Rivette film.

Just to clear things up, out of all Potemkine Rivette releases, only Up, Down, Fragile and Secret Défense have English subs.

Peacock wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:28 am From what I understand though at least one of the other Rivette Potemkine blu-rays does contain English subtitles though. Unless blu-ray.com is wrong. Which is possible!

Both Secret défense and Haut bas fragile do have English subtitles. I own these Potemkine blu-rays.

Gang of Four is now available for pre-order on Amazon, at a decent price for Cohen

Stefan wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:03 pm No, the Potemkine blurays DO NOT contain english subtitles but only french ones for the deaf mutes.

But then again, don't you think that anyone truly interested in the art of film should bother to learn at least some basic French? Or should such basic learning not necessarily go along with seeing, let's say, "Le Mépris" some multiple times (at least 20 x is required IMO) and be just a normal part of your (anyone's) cinematographic upbringing?

I think I can qualify as a fan and I hardly know any French. Certainly not basic for the simple reason that the language isn’t of interest to me and I’m sure that’s true of many others. Also I’m hard of hearing enough that watching any number of French films has helped only the barest.

Stefan wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:03 pm No, the Potemkine blurays DO NOT contain english subtitles but only french ones for the deaf mutes.

But then again, don't you think that anyone truly interested in the art of film should bother to learn at least some basic French? Or should such basic learning not necessarily go along with seeing, let's say, "Le Mépris" some multiple times (at least 20 x is required IMO) and be just a normal part of your (anyone's) cinematographic upbringing?

I’m glad deaf-mutes are finally getting their own specialised subtitles!


I actually somewhat agree with you re learning French, I’m sure I’m not the only one who owns some of those beautiful Cinéma periodicals released back in the day, one of which to this day still contains the best DVD edition of The House is Black…

Stefan wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:03 pm don't you think that anyone truly interested in the art of film should bother to learn at least some basic French? Or should such basic learning not necessarily go along with seeing, let's say, "Le Mépris" some multiple times (at least 20 x is required IMO) and be just a normal part of your (anyone's) cinematographic upbringing?

Learning French as a second language certainly isn't a bad thing for native English speakers to do, particularly if they're interested in French cinema, but you're still going to need subtitles for a great many more important works of cinema unless you happen to understand, say, half-a-dozen languages at the very least (and all power to you if you do!). So I don't see the use in making it out to be non-French speakers' problem if they require subtitles to understand a film's dialogue, and I do very much think DVD labels should be encouraged to include as many subtitle tracks as possible. Increasing access to cinema is never a bad thing! And I can't imagine it hurts their profit margin to cater to a bigger market, either.

I understand that regional rights deals can sometimes prevent labels from including subtitles in a given language, but where that's not the case I can't see why you wouldn't. I feel quite sure that the cost of getting a film professionally subtitled in English is bound to pay for itself in terms of increased sales – consider how many of us paid hundreds of dollars for Potemkine's Rohmer box set on account of it being subtitled, for instance.

furbicide wrote:I do very much think DVD labels should be encouraged to include as many subtitle tracks as possible. Increasing access to cinema is never a bad thing! And I can't imagine it hurts their profit margin to cater to a bigger market, either.

If the label is directly run by the rightsholder, that argument makes both economic and contractual sense - and of course many rightsholder-controlled releases do indeed include subtitles and dubs in multiple languages.

But for a single-territory boutique label to do it is a rather different proposition, as the hefty costs per additional language (more than you’d think, especially if created and QCed professionally) are unlikely to be wholly covered by increased sales, assuming such a thing is even contractually possible in the first place.

And much of the time it just isn’t; most projects that I’ve worked on have been on the basis that I’m allowed to include English and the film’s original language (if different), but if I wanted to add, say, German, I’d be required upfront to license the rights for a German-speaking territory. Which the rightsholder would of course be only too happy to arrange, but that pushes the budget up still further.

I have no doubt it can be expensive to create and QC new subtitles from scratch, but – assuming that territory rights aren't in play – what sort of expense would be involved in porting subtitles over that already exist elsewhere (as is the case with these Potemkine releases, for instance)? i.e. is the translator's/editor's fee vs whatever needs to be paid to whoever owns the extant subtitle track the main consideration there, or are you faced with the same basic technical costs either way?

The Love The On The Ground coming in Feb - seems these are coming quick, hope this stops the naysayers

domino harvey wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:59 pm The Love The On The Ground coming in Feb - seems these are coming quick, hope this stops the naysayers

Haut bas fragile or we riot.

The Potemkine blu ray has English subtitles and I doubt a Cohen blu ray of Haut Bas Fragile is going to be better than that one. I guess it's region B, which I suppose could be a sticking point.

feihong wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:00 am The Potemkine I guess it's region B, which I suppose could be a sticking point.

Yes, it is region B. And the DVD (for the extras) is code 2.

feihong wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:00 am The Potemkine blu ray has English subtitles and I doubt a Cohen blu ray of Haut Bas Fragile is going to be better than that one. I guess it's region B, which I suppose could be a sticking point.

I've held off on importing the Potemkine releases of that and Secret defense in the hopes that Cohen would have them out sooner rather than later. Not that I anticipate a rewatch soon, necessarily.