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Roger Ryan wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 8:36 pm

FlickeringWindow wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 6:57 pm WBShop just sent out an email specifically noting it’s the premiere version.

I do hope it at least has an option for the three cuts branched.

The thing is, as I guess has already been pointed out, is that it would be easy to call the standard U.S. edit the "premiere version" since the film was subsequently edited-down for the European market. We need Warner Home Video to specify it contains the previously unseen hospital coda. If it does, there's no way the standard U.S. edit would not be included as well since it's the version Kubrick wanted for general U.S. release (and the shorter European cut should be on there as well).

The film opened in NY/LA on May 23rd, 1980 - the Friday of Memorial Day weekend. Those prints were changed within a week of that date. The press release has gone out of its way to say that this cut is the one released on May 23rd, 1980. Why be so anal about the premiere date unless they're trying to communicate, through the length and date, that it's the original edit? I'm totally baffled about it too, but this would be a hell of a lot of mistakes (on film festival sites, in press releases, etc) all at once.

We will know by the end of the weekend, once the 4K restoration has screened at Cannes and in Toronto, whether it includes the hospital coda or not.

welp:

Harlan: Stanley wanted to make sure that nobody would ever re-assemble his edit in any other way. All outtakes and unused scenes were systematically destroyed — including negatives and rushes. He himself knew that he would never consider a re-cut. He was someone who lived totally in the present. He never looked back."

That interview from 2017 has absolutely nothing to do with this announced restoration in 2019 since it was two years ago, no "welp" about it - there appears to be new information now unless someone at Warners is just completely inept at disseminating information to multiple sources

mfunk9786 wrote: Thu May 16, 2019 11:32 pm That interview from 2017 has absolutely nothing to do with this announced restoration in 2019 since it was two years ago, no "welp" about it - there appears to be new information now unless someone at Warners is just completely inept at disseminating information to multiple sources

I didn't say it did. I just thought it was interesting that people who closely worked with Kubrick made a point of explaining the lengths he went to to prevent his films from being re-edited.

Much like the aspect ratio issue, this is well-trod territory over the years, but that doesn't change how strange the roll-out of this restoration has been and what seems to be the very likely possibility that the original cut is coming - I only took issue with your "welp," not the idea of sharing that quote, etc - no one is going to stumble upon the smoking gun unless it's new information from Warners, or from those exhibiting or viewing the print at Cannes.

I saw The Shining three times (same theater) when it opened in wide U.S. release in June, 1980 and each time I noticed an odd jump between the close-up shot of Jack in the maze and the tracking shot into the photograph. This didn't look like a reel change, so I thought the print might have been damaged a bit and a splice made to remove the damaged frames. It wasn't until years later that I learned about the hospital scene that had been cut after the premiere; I now suspect that original print I saw was one of the ones where the footage was trimmed after the print was struck.

Given that Warner Home Video did not include the 17 minutes of existing footage trimmed from 2001 as a supplement to the UHD release last year, I'm still incredulous that a deleted scene would actually be re-edited back into The Shining and that this modified version would be treated as the primary version on the disc. As "mfunk9786" says, we'll know soon.

Digitalbits is confirming that

"We’ve learned from multiple sources now that the version of Stanley Kubrick’s The Shining coming to 4K Ultra HD on 10/1 will be the same 144-minute cut of the film we’ve seen previously on disc. There was an error on the press release that suggested a 146-minute run time, which led some to speculate that the film would include the epilogue ending (which took place at a hospital) that was cut by Kubrick at the last minute. We figured this was highly unlikely and, indeed, this is not the case. So adjust your expectations accordingly."

Someone's getting fired.

mfunk9786 wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 11:29 pm Someone's getting fired.

Eh, that person just got this re-release of an old film a fuck-ton more publicity than it otherwise would've gotten. Not saying it was intentional, but I doubt it's going to make Warner's too unhappy when all is said and done.

Analysis of three home video versions of The Shining
Discusses aspect ratio, color correction, sound remix, changes in music mix and more.

Also available here, with 5.1 audio

See also

Hospital scene reconstruction

Music editor Gordon Stainforth on the film
Contains links to several other web pages on the film.

Stefan Andersson wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:37 am ...Hospital scene reconstruction

There's an interesting comment below the video from someone who claims to have seen a premiere cut and describes how a backward tracking shot of Ullman walking through the hospital corridor was a nice visual match to the hedge maze. Oddly, the commentator states that in the version he saw, the hospital scene ended with Ullman telling Wendy he "wouldn't accept 'no' for an answer" to his invitation for Wendy and Danny to stay at his L.A. beach house (eliminating the final moments of Ullman tossing the tennis ball to Danny). Is it possible that the scene was whittled down over the course of early screenings? Or is this anonymous commentator just making it all up to goose YouTube viewers?

Wasn’t Kubrick known for tinkering with edits after the film was completed? I believe there’s stories of him entering projection booths at English screenings of 2001 where he’d make trims and edits to studio prints. It doesn’t seem out of the question that he would edit multiple times after the premiere. I’m curious if there’s more concrete evidence of this other than this YouTube comment. Also in 1980, could you imagine all teenage projectionists carefully cutting a scene out of a final print per studio orders? There must be some print collectors with that scene.

At one point in the 1990s, the Thalia in NYC advertised a screening of the "original uncut" THE SHINING. The projectionist had to get out the 16mm print they'd projected, check it to see that the hospital scene wasn't there, and then make a couple of phone calls before issuing the refunds.

Roger Ryan wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:26 pm ...Is it possible that the scene was whittled down over the course of early screenings?...

It just occurred to me that the hospital sequence may have, indeed, ended with Ullman's conversation with Wendy in the premiere edit (two minutes of running time would be about right to get Ullman down the corridor, greet Danny, enter the hospital room, and have a brief conversation with Wendy). Although the script indicates an additional corridor scene with Ullman tossing the tennis ball to Danny, Kubrick could have cut this prior to the premiere. Losing this sinister twist makes sense if Kubrick felt it took away from the final shot of the photograph. Ultimately, he may have realized that without that sinister twist, the concluding hospital sequence didn't really amount to much.

Are there any accounts of premiere cut viewers seeing the full sequence complete with tennis ball?

This blogger claims to have seen the full original ending (scroll down to the B&W photo of Shelley Duvall in the hospital for this section of his post). Now of course it's impossible to know if anyone on the internet is telling the truth, but having read this blogger for some years, he doesn't strike me as the type of person to make sensational claims for attention. His reviews are generally very personal, and many of the films he writes about are not exactly popular hits with huge followings, so I don't think he's trying to impress anyone.

On an episode of the podcast Back By Midnight Glenn Kenny described going to see the film multiple times in its first run, and remembers the hospital scene (and then its disappearance). I don't know if that podcast episode is still available--it might now be archived the related podcast Movie Geeks United. If I can find the episode I'll transcribe Kenny's description of it.

From Glenn Kenny on Back By Midnight, August 12, 2012:

"There was about a four-minute scene that took place in the hospital. Stuart Ullmann shows up he visits Wendy Torrance in the hospital and tells her all the things that she and the audience saw--there's no physical evidence that any of that happened. He tries to very nicely assure her that essentially what she saw was a hallucination, and she finds this very upsetting. Basically there's a shot of the Sno-Cat pulling away, then it cuts to the hospital scene, then it cuts to the shot of frozen Jack Torrance in the maze, suggesting that his body has not yet been recovered, then it cuts to the slow tracking shot of the wall of photos at the Overlook. [...] We were kind of confused because in the summer of 1980 I think we saw The Shining nine times in theaters. We were like, 'what the hell happened to that scene?'"

ianthemovie wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:35 pm From Glenn Kenny on Back By Midnight, August 12, 2012:
...Basically there's a shot of the Sno-Cat pulling away, then it cuts to the hospital scene, then it cuts to the shot of frozen Jack Torrance in the maze...

There is a continuous music cue running through the nighttime shot of Jack collapsing in the maze and the hard cut to the close-up of the frozen Jack in the daytime. I'm not saying that Kenny is not recollecting the sequence correctly (after seeing it nine times), but it's unlikely that any revised editing could have been done by projectionists to smoothly allow for that music cue to support the shots as it does. That's something that would have required a remix and would take longer than a few days to accomplish (getting the new prints out and all).

It's entirely possible Kenny's memory of it is fuzzy. He implies that only the first one (or maybe two) of those nine screenings had the hospital scene intact. It was cut pretty soon after the film came out.

I can't find it ATM, but I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one source claiming that WB sent out replacements for the last reel, and that having projectionists remove the hospital scene themselves was only a stopgap measure until those were ready. It's possible the replacement reels may have been created in part to smooth over a disjunct on the soundtrack caused by the excision of the scene. That said, the screenplay doesn't have the shot of the frozen Jack after the hospital scene, but then Kubrick could've decided to insert it there during the edit.

FYI, Regal (at least, not sure if other multiplexes are also doing this) is screening the new restoration (almost certainly a DCP) for $5 a ticket or free for Unlimited subscribers. 7 PM, September 26th and October 1st.

The Fanciful Norwegian wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:22 pm I can't find it ATM, but I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one source claiming that WB sent out replacements for the last reel, and that having projectionists remove the hospital scene themselves was only a stopgap measure until those were ready. It's possible the replacement reels may have been created in part to smooth over a disjunct on the soundtrack caused by the excision of the scene. That said, the screenplay doesn't have the shot of the frozen Jack after the hospital scene, but then Kubrick could've decided to insert it there during the edit.

Music editor Gordon Stainforth's detailed notes should indicate if that (fairly elaborate) music cue was altered/added after the film was released (would this be in that huge Taschen book on Kubrick?). As I noted above, seeing the film days after it opened, the edit from Jack's frozen visage to the dolly shot into the photograph seemed a little ragged to me (as if that was where the footage had been removed). I know this isn't proof of anything; still, it just doesn't seem likely that Kubrick would go from hedge maze to hospital, then back to the hedge maze (at an indeterminate period of time) then into the hotel - the shock cut to the frozen Jack is just a perfect conclusion to the maze chase climax.

Found this statement from Mr. Stainforth


Relevant quote on the hospital scene (my Bold on relevant sentence):

"The so-called Japanese version I believe was identical to the original English version. I have no idea whether the latter still exists. I feel it is highly likely that Stanley would have ordered all the prints and interpositives/i-negs at Warner Bros of the excised sections to be destroyed. It is quite likely though, that the original version i.e. Some early checkprints, still exist in the Kubricks' own v private vaults.
Yes, I saw the long version many times. But remember, it was an ongoing process: the English version was being re-cut right up to the release date.
Yes, I saw the alternative ending, and the film is definitely better without it (it just piled riddle on riddle - the picture on the wall is enough of a riddle to end with.) But it made for a very awkward music cut, so I didn't like that edit in that respect, as I was the music editor. . Note: the Japanese/ English version did not have that in. It was shown just once in a preview in New York and then cut, just before the film was released."

Mr. Stainforth´s simplified music chart for The Shining

Contains the interesting info that, for several scenes, Mr.Stainforth used a "3-layer 'sandwich' of Carlos' 'Heartbeat', 'Thought Transfer' & 'Low-High'". Never seen these Wendy Carlos tracks mentioned elsewhere re: The Shining.

Extensive music & scene list

Go here for a downloadable article on the music; full of interesting observations, and several of Mr. Stainforth´s music charts

I swiftly scanned through the last three of the above links. None mention the hospital scene, though, admittedly, some of the music charts, as reproduced, are difficult to read.

In an earlier post, I linked to this video
The video contains interesting examples of differences between the mono mix (1999 DVD) and the 5.1 mix (2007 bluray) of the music track (starts at 14:31).

Diane Johnson comments on the hospital scene, and on another deleted scene, featuring a scrapbook of the Overlook´s history, and the book´s influence on Torrance:
https://ew.com/movies/2017/03/30/shinin ... explained/

Well-done analysis of Mr. Stainforth´s music mix, including his method of overlapping several pieces of music

Two of Mr. Stainforth´s music charts, in readable form
No mention of the hospital scene.

Some good reading here, about the duality motif and more

Thank you Mr. Andersson for the thorough follow-up. I wish Mr. Stainforth was a little more specific about that "very awkward music cut" as that might be the key to knowing where the "frozen Jack" shot ended up in the premiere edit. Still, his hand-drawn music chart clearly indicates that the daytime shot of "frozen Jack" immediately followed the nighttime shot of Jack sitting down in the maze, so that had to be the original conception even if Kubrick changed it briefly towards the end of editing.

Also, I now see (thanks to that simplified music chart linked to above) that a reel change did occur just before the dolly in to the photograph - that explains the "odd jump" I saw when seeing the film theatrically in 1980 (probably not an indication of last-minute projection booth editing, just the clumsy mechanics of film projection).