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Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:02 pm**

mhofmann -- Thanks for letting me know. What a fiasco!

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:27 pm**

JSC wrote:Sorry, I stand corrected. The subtitles on both discs are forced and cannot be switched off. I could shift
the position of the subtitles on Gang of Four so I (wrongly) assumed they could also be switched off.

The term 'burned in' is a bit misleading. When I think of 'burned in' I think of the subtitles actually being
a part of the actual print (as in optically printed onto the film). But then, maybe I'm showing my age a
bit there.

Burnt in means that subs have been encoded into the picture part of the video file, which is actually kind of a digital equivalent of optically printed subs on a 35mm copy.

When dealing with forced subs, the subs are in a specific stream, just like optional subs. The difference is that the disc tells the player "don't allow to turn them off", but it's otherwise similar.
Burnt-in subs are apart in that there is no specific stream, they're pixels in the picture, and they'd need to be digitally erased to be removed. Typically, fast-forwarding (like x10 or x30) through such a disc would still show the subs activated, while they don't appear when fast-forwarding through a disc with forced or optional subs. That's a way to check what's what.

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:32 pm**

Thanks for clarifying that these are not physically "burnt in"...

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:39 pm**

Michael Kerpan wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:32 pm Thanks for clarifying that these are not physically "burnt in"...

Careful here, I think they still might be unless Cohen is changing their policy. Would be great. But unfortunately, there is no hint of that being the case yet whatsoever. The Blu-ray.com review states that "Per Cohen's standard operating procedure, English subtitles are forced." The reviewer has used the same wording for many releases that demonstrably have burned-in subtitles (e.g., see below).

Cohen know/knew how to use proper PGS subtitle streams. They used them on (I assume) all of their discs up to a certain point in time.
Here are Cohen releases sorted by release date (from latest to oldest).

The last of their foreign-language releases that I know of that have PGS subtitle streams are Who You Think I Am and White as Snow from November '21. Anything before that should be safe to buy (an assumption, not a promise).

The first release I myself noticed with burnt-in (i.e., encoded into the video stream) subtitles is Year of the Jellyfish from May '22. (Only the Animals from January '22 might be the true first one, but I am unable to confirm.)
Furthermore, the following releases from 2022/23 have burnt-in subtitles: Nathalie..., The Burned Barns, Apples, Symphony for a Massacre, Going Places, Monsieur Hire, The Good Boss, Felix and Lola / Love Street, Entre Nous, A Knife in the Head, Love on the Ground, potentially others I have missed. You get the gist. They have been quite consistent at burning in their subtitles recently. ](*,)

I have ordered The Gang of Four based on the statements here by JSC but am prepared to be disappointed. Unless Cohen change their policy going forward, I will not financially support them further, foreign language release or not.

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:06 pm**

Someone mentioned a Cohen rep who posts here. Surely if we raise this with them they can at least take it up the chain?

I can only imagine this is a choice being made ignorantly rather than deliberately, and if enough people voice discontent – given we international Rivette admirers aren't exactly a massive contingent to begin with – then I'd expect they'd at least look into it. Might save a few future releases (yes, I'm still hanging out for the holy grail of L'amour fou!)

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:32 pm**

The rep posts in the blu-ray.com forum's Cohen thread.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2023 12:26 am**

And multiple people in that thread (a few of whom are also in this thread) have complained specifically to the Cohen rep about burned-in subtitles, to no avail.

Posted: **Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:23 am**

Well, the more, the merrier I'd say.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:40 am**

lazarus wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:24 am Also, does anyone know why the pre-order Amazon price for Up, Down, Fragile is so expensive?

It's down to the normal ~$20 price point now

Posted: **Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:49 pm**

I can confirm that their release of The Gang of Four features removable, i.e., non-burnt-in subtitles. That's good, but we now have to wait and see whether they have actually changed their policy going forward or whether that was a fluke. Guess we'll see with Secret Defense and Up, Down, Fragile...

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:32 pm**

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I just playtested Secret Defense and subs are burned in. Looks like Gang of Four might be the outlier here

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:38 pm**

So I guess we should go for the French BDs if you want removable English subs?

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:20 pm**

therewillbeblus wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:32 pm Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I just playtested Secret Defense and subs are burned in. Looks like Gang of Four might be the outlier here

Have they fixed the issue from the French Blu-Ray where they replaced some fades to black with straight cuts?

Posted: **Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:18 pm**

JonoQ wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:20 pm
therewillbeblus wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:32 pm Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I just playtested Secret Defense and subs are burned in. Looks like Gang of Four might be the outlier here
Have they fixed the issue from the French Blu-Ray where they replaced some fades to black with straight cuts?

I'm not sure, I just did a quick disc check to report back here cause I know a lot of people who care were wondering. Personally I don't mind about the subs, but the copies I've watched have always had the fades and that would suck to lose them - I'll report back when I watch my disc in the coming days. Are there specific instances of replacements to look out for, or are there not supposed to be straight cuts at all between scenes?

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:30 pm**

I've decided to distinguish what Cohen is doing here from old-fashioned (physically) "burnt-in" subs by thinking of this new variant as "baked-in" ones.

I wonder how fades got changed into cuts? Is this careless -- or deliberate?

It seems a shame that new versions are screwing up things that were always done (more or less)right in earlier incarnations.

Posted: **Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:31 pm**

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with how fades could become hard cuts, but that does remind me of something I discovered at some point in this last year, which I'm not sure was discussed in this thread, though it looks like it was mistakenly touched on briefly in the Ritrovata/Eclair thread: I saw some comparisons posted on twitter between the Arrow BD of Duelle and an earlier DVD, which previously showed Juliet Berto's moon goddess character steeped in a blue that accentuated the contrast between her and Bulle Ogier's sun goddess in the same scene, whereas the Arrow has them both looking a similar degree of golden. This inspired me to download a dvd rip to compare with the blu, and I discovered that there are also some black and white segments that were previously tinted a deep blue (a la nighttime in a tinted silent), but are just a neutral grayscale on the Arrow.

This restoration was not actually handled by Ritrovata or Eclair, but it seemed on twitter everyone was assuming a similar indiscriminate yellow grade. However, the degree of difference, in only certain parts, makes me suspect that it's not so much a grading thing, and that maybe some filters were selectively applied in post, which were not redone in the restoration? That also seems weird to me though because Arrow's notes say the restoration colorist consulted a 35mm print. Were these tints not on the print? Are they unique to whatever DVD this was? Were they on the print and just got overlooked somehow?

I wonder if Rivette's films just have a lot of minor optical effects that keep getting overlooked because they're not on the negative. I'd like to think these are purposeful, well-considered differences though, because it's hard to imagine most of these films being popular enough to get a re-do anytime soon.

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:34 am**

I don't know how many fades were replaced with cuts. I found these links demonstrating one such replacement, although I'm not sure where in the film it is:
Original version (from old DVD): https://streamable.com/f0plet
New version (from French Blu-Ray): https://streamable.com/btnfka

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:54 pm**

Regarding Secret defense

Just finished watching the disc. I believe there were only two fade outs which are now hard cuts.
I don't think they effect the film very much, but they are there. Also, the subtitles (which, as was
already mentioned, are baked in) are kind of poor with punctuation errors, odd choices of words
and some incomplete sentences. The film looks good, though... and none of these issues I mentioned
really altered my enjoyment overall.

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:06 pm**

Well that just sucks all around, huh? I hope they get it together for Haut bas fragile, but it seems like every subsequent Rivette release gets worse!

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:18 pm**

Haven't they all had issues like that with the subtitles?

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:33 pm**

I don’t recall anything egregiously bad about Noiseuse, but Joan had plenty.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:33 am**

I don't know if the Cohen blu of Secret défense is different, but the Potemkine doesn't have ANY fades, it consists solely of straight cuts.

Originally the film had six or so fades to black at the end of each day, plus one instance of straight cut to black screen then fade in when Bonnaire wakes in the middle of night.
Beyond that, there was also the fade out on the next-to-last shot before the final one, which now looks weird as a jump cut.

Also, the French blu is incorrectly framed, showing the boom mic several times, including hanging visibly over Laure Marsac quite some time during one scene. It reminds me of the framing in the Eureka and Kino blus of Le Pont du Nord, which was corrected on the 4K restoration supervised by Caroline Champetier (released on blu by Potemkine).

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:52 pm**

So, to recap the Cohen releases so far:

Love on the Ground:

Burned-in subs

Gang of Four:

Shot which was previously in color now appears in B&W (Testimony that the shot appears in color on 35mm prints)

Screenshots

~1:39:16 on the DVD
~1:43:28 on the Blu-ray

Shot lasts for about 10 seconds. Lucia enters from the left and sits down in the center of the couch.

La Belle Noiseuse:

Excessive audio cleanup applied

Jeanne la Pucelle:

Poor subtitle translation
"Lacking sections of day-for-night tinting found in previous releases." (Timestamps/screenshots would be helpful here; I've not seen this discussed elsewhere.)

Secret Defense:

Burned-in subs (Potemkine release contains English subs and does not have this issue)
Poor subtitle translation/proofreading
Incorrect framing (see below)
Altered transitions (see below)

More detailed timestamps + screenshots (contains spoilers)

~14:50 on the DVD
~15:15 on the Blu-ray

Sylvie is typing on her computer at the end of the first day. On the DVD, there is a fade to black before the next scene. On the Blu-ray, there is a hard cut to her drying her hair with a towel on the second day.

~25:20 on the DVD
~26:13 on the Blu-ray

Véronique leaves Sylvie's house. Sylvie stands watching the doorway. On the DVD, the scene fades to black, followed by a scene in Sylvie's laboratory. On the Blu-ray, there is a hard cut to the laboratory.

~1:05:26 on the DVD
~1:07:58 on the Blu-ray

After committing the murder, Sylvie sits down in an armchair and collapses. The camera pushes in. On the DVD, the tail end of this camera movement is accompanied by a fade to black, followed by the next scene of Sylvie lying in bed. On the Blu-ray, the fade to black is instead replaced with a cut to black.

~1:47:04 on the DVD
~1:51:22 on the Blu-ray

Walser kisses Ludivine's hands. On the DVD, the scene fades to black before a shot of Ludivine lying in bed the next morning. On the Blu-ray, the scenes are bridged by a straight cut.

~2:03:57 on the DVD
~2:08:58 on the Blu-ray
(Post containing clip demonstrations)

Sylvie sits in an embrace with Sabine and cries. On the DVD, the scene fades to black, followed by a shot of Sylvie in her lab. On the Blu-ray, the scenes are bridged by a hard cut.

~2:20:48 on the DVD
~2:26:28 on the Blu-ray

Walser has left Sylvie's apartment after confessing. Sylvie chases him out onto the street but fails to catch him. On the DVD, there is a cut to black, followed by a fade-in to a shot of Sylvie in bed, unable to sleep. On the Blu-ray, there is a hard cut from the shot of Sylvie on the street to her in bed.

~2:43:56 on the DVD
~2:50:35 on the Blu-ray

Ludivine has shot Sylvie, who lies dying in Walser's arms. On the DVD, the camera pushes in on Walser as the scene fades to black, followed by a wide shot of the same scene. On the Blu-ray, there is no fade, simply a cut from close-up to long shot.

During the conversation that occurs at and around 1:48:44, the boom mic is visible over Laure Marsac's head:

I'm aiming to make this as comprehensive as possible, so any more specific examples for any of the films would be appreciated.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:42 pm**

Thanks, diamonds! Fingers crossed you have very little work to do on Rivette's best film next month

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:06 pm**

dadaistnun wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:45 pm Lol, my copy of the Potemkin edition arrived today. So if Cohen corrects the "fade to black" issue (highly unlikely, I know), you're welcome!

Looks like they followed your advice! Tell us more?

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