mhofmann wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:03 am
ryannichols7 wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:56 am
I included a relevant quote from nicolas and I below regarding
Interrogation, which Vinegar Syndrome took the liberty to "block" the Second Run release from being sold by any of the big 4 American import stores, while also claiming they were putting out the first English language BD of it. this has been mentioned elsewhere on the board, and while VS isn't alone in doing it (Severin has too as well, and I think another label), they're the more prominent and have done it a good number of times. I call them "predatory" cause while yes, it does make these labels plenty of money to sell through VS, it's very evident their fanbase is there to collect, not to consume in many cases. there have been a few extras contributors (including some on this board, I won't put them in the hot seat) who have said they received very little feedback or mention of their extras they contributed to for various VS releases. obviously there are exceptions - many on this board buy their stuff, including myself (I own a good 15-20 releases, all partner labels), but I feel they kinda bring all these smaller labels in and there's diminishing returns in the long run. again, exceptions, Deaf Crocodile being the biggest one (and they're the one I own the most releases from anyway) and I hope others join them
I completely agree that that's
very shitty from them, but let's be aware - they're not the only label doing this and in every single case, there are two parties complicit and thus should take the blame in this. From VS's side, it's simply a regular business practice in capitalist America. I'm not sure VS should be singled out here.
I continue to be surprised how the indie shops
agree to this scheme. You might argue they're completely powerless and depend on VS's (and Severin's, Unobstructed View's, etc.) business. I believe it's nothing more but a power play where all the shops blinked first (why not bond together and push back instead?), and the labels have as much of an interest to not lose business from DiabolikDVD, etc., as the other way around.
ryannichols7 wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:56 am
another one discussed up thread is how they keep creating sublabels (VSA, labs, cinematographe) in order to skirt around their subscribers. there isn't really another label doing an equivalent to that, but I see it discussed on a few forums. I still fail to see how
Little Darlings or
Goin' South are all that different from what VS would release normally anyway, but hey, it continues to feed the machine. I just think of all the labels, they're the one that is pushing us towards a higher price point and pushing this hobby to be more expensive than usual. sure, they haven't done the nonsense Imprint is doing, but they are a lot higher priced on average than most labels I feel like. and those slipcovers and all that do feel pretty amateur, so that's not what's driving up the price! anyway I should really change my username on here, the next time I order a package direct from them, that dude is gonna put something revolting in the box
The number of own sub-labels is indeed pretty inflationary, and IMO, only Cinematographe is truly distinct enough to justify its existence (and it's not just the different name). But if they just
add to the amount of stuff they provide to subscribers and not take away from the base offering, I fail to see the issue. I understand they'd rather not raise the price of their subscription significiantly (in addition to inflation, etc.).
As a subscriber, I don't have issues with their pricing either. But I admit I haven't looked at the non-subscriber pricing in a few years. I feel that Severin, Imprint, and others are pushing the boundaries more than VS, but in the end, they're all doing it. Slipcovers, who cares - at least I don't. But hey, they seem to serve a market, so should be blame VS for that?
they're not the only label at all, I will make that clear, but I will also own the fact that due to the "partner label" scenario (I can count on one hand the number of releases from VS themselves that I'd want to own), they're the only label doing it that is releasing stuff that I'm personally interested in, which does make me more aware of it. I have read posts here occasionally mentioning the other labels doing this. I will agree with you that the indie shops are at fault too in agreeing to it - I agree that it does seem they get good business from VS, but also there's releases that sell out on the VS site immediately but take
eons to sell out on Orbit or Diabolik, so I remain in the mindset that VS superfans buy whatever they can get their hands on via the website, but everyone else...it takes time. anyway yes, I agree with you that the labels themselves could really stand to miss out on sales. VS are big enough to handle it themselves, but Severin or another label who isn't as big would probably stand to lose a lot. I think this is also why Deaf Crocodile realized they had to sell their releases on the other sites and not just their own and Diabolik. I'll agree - I wish the shops had more of a standing, but it always goes back to that "we have such a good relationship" with them kind of thing. so why not have a good relationship with Second Run, Eureka, etc too? Criterion and Kino don't care
at all that there are UK releases being easily sold in America, those two obviously are much bigger so it's an unfair analogy, but it's honestly impressive to point out. hell, Kino cares so little that they basically readily license all their extras to Indicator, Eureka, etc whenever the UK labels put out their own edition - the amount of times I've seen Frank Tarzi or Bret Wood thanked in a UK booklet is hilarious
the issue with the sublabels is they don't get included with the subscription. I agree with you on not raising the price, and I'll also admit they don't necessarily take away from what the subscription includes, but it just seems to me they could easily add a tier or something. I do think the pricing is quite high, as a non-subscriber, given what you actually get with their releases. I won't fault them for slipcovers or whatever, there's a clear market and I'm also guilty of buying into it myself. I am against all labels raising the prices the way they are - I totally understand inflation, licensing costs are getting higher, paying contributors, etc but there just seems to be a move towards the collector (the people who keep stuff in the plastic wrap and don't watch the discs) instead of the consumer from some of these labels. I'm picking on VS this time but I'd say the same about Imprint - I didn't join the dogpile in their thread but I wholeheartedly agree with it
tenia wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:25 am
Side note (I agree about the sub-labels, it's getting silly at some point) : the right holdings geographical split means what it means, and a UK release isn't supposed to be directly available elsewhere. I certainly wouldn't like it if I couldn't import it, but I understand trying to enforce the purchased rightholding split, and that it's different importing a foreign release and buying domestically an imported releases (like, buying from DVD Diabolik a UK release as a US citizen).
while you are right, it goes back to the arguments I had about filesharing back in the day - there's basically no way to stop it and people are gonna do it anyway. if Orbit, Diabolik, etc didn't exist, we'd all unfortunately be buying from Amazon or Rarewaves or some bigger company, and then there's eBay and who knows, a legion of people that fly to the UK and back with suitcases of imports or something. as I noted, Criterion and Kino don't seem to care about this at all, so why do Vinegar Syndrome, Severin, etc feel they have to strongarm these smaller indie stores? you know where I'd have to buy
Interrogation from if I don't wanna pay a fortune in shipping to buy it direct (which I'd love to, and I'm sorry if anyone from Second Run reads this, but it
is sadly costly to pay for direct UK shipping these days), Amazon and Rarewaves unfortunately. it sucks a lot and it hurts the indie stores just as much. Vinegar Syndrome are
never going to convince me to buy one of their releases by trying to block me from getting the UK one. I hope, and don't believe, I'm alone on that
yoloswegmaster wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:16 pm
It's very hypocritical for the "operations manager" (it's Justin LaLiberty btw) to use "Vinegar Syndrome is the exclusive rights holder in the US" as an excuse to block Region B releases from being sold in places like Diabolik and Orbit but then publicly make tweets telling people to buy Region B releases of titles that were released by Criterion (strangely enough, he only does this for one label but has never done it for any other label). I would show examples but I don't have twitter, so it would be great if someone could find them. I know he did it for the releases of Throw Down and The Long Good Friday.
They are also very scalper friendly, especially with that OOP return sale they had going on a few weeks ago which was essentially a bot-fest since an overwhelming majority of the titles ended up being sold out in less than 3 minutes after being listed.
here is
Throw Down and
The Long Good Friday, as requested. not to mention that whole debacle where he tried to criticize Criterion's release of
Fast Times at Ridgemont High cause it didn't look like his old DVD or something. telling people
Rebels of the Neon God was a new transfer when it was the same as the previous Bluray. in addition to his hypocrisy, he just really rubs me the wrong way - I feel it's his move to try and be some sort of "authority figure" in home media and we...just really don't need there to be a guy like that. we already have KL Insider!
MichaelB wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:51 pm
Vinegar Syndrome are by no means unique in trying to restrict the sale of competing non-US releases. In fact, this is (convincingly) rumoured to be why Sony started to enforce region-locking on Indicator titles circa 2019-20, because US rightsholders complained to them that letting them be region-free was encouraging Americans to import.
And, to be absolutely fair, I do have a certain amount of sympathy, because US rights are typically a fair bit more expensive than UK ones (since they're usually pegged to market size), and so I can easily understand why a label that may well have spent more money than a rival to secure a particular title is miffed about that rival's cheaper-to-produce edition being easy to get hold of in the US, especially since they're not technically supposed to be selling it outside the UK (or wherever they've licensed it for). Sometimes they even make this explicit, as with Second Sight's editions of George Romero films, which SS is contractually not allowed to sell outside the UK.
And while I'm not sure that I'd personally go to the lengths of actively trying to prevent its circulation, I do genuinely understand where they're coming from. And it's certainly not fair to scapegoat just one label over this.
I get it, but as I said with Tenia, there's no really true way of stopping this. if I wanna buy the films that comprise Mae West in Hollywood, I know there's Kino editions I could easily pay up and get, that are all fine editions that can be found affordably. but I'd much rather have the lovely and fancy Indicator box. and you know what? I'd do whatever I could to make sure that's the edition I got, and I doubt I'd be alone on that. luckily, Kino seem okay with me doing this, just like Criterion would be fine with Dietrich/Von Sternberg or whatever. and I get it - those two labels are bigger, sure, but I think that VS, Severin, or whoever else does this need to just accept reality and realize their strongarming and trying to prevent people from importing the UK release isn't going to move people to buy their editions. I would be genuinely shocked if this accounted for a lot of sales. I remember when Radiance put out
Litan and Severin had to do their sad little "please wait for our edition!!" announcement and what happens? it's buried exclusively in like a $200 boxset. I understand their argument, sure, but I just think it could all be handled differently. Second Sight are contractually not allowed to ship the Romero films to the US, but they have no issue selling to importers too - more of that, really
dwk wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:00 pm
ryannichols7 wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:56 am
and that I do understand, I can see why IFC would rather sign a deal with VS than sign a new package to Criterion, who would sit on their titles for however long, meanwhile VS would guarantee them what, 10 releases a year? more? it makes sense, and I don't fault them, I just personally do not like it. which brings me to...
IFC has had, and continues to have deals with multiple labels. It used to be MPI, Criterion, Shout/Scream Factory and Paramount and now they release thru RLJ Entertainment, OCN, occasionally Criterion, and soon Severin (not sure if Paramount still releases IFC titles or not.)
domino harvey wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:45 pm
Funnily enough, I bought an Australian Blu-ray of a film with a US release from eBay and was confused when it arrived from Vinegar Syndrome. Not someone using their old packaging, this seller and their shipping WAS Vinegar Syndrome. So I guess they have no problem with imports they sell
Probably was something that they carried in their b&m store the Archive. So, yeah, that is insanely hypocritical.
what was the last Criterion IFC title? obviously not saying they're gonna cut the deal, all Criterion IFCs will go OOP, or anything like that, but it does seem like IFC would rather put their eggs in the VS basket for now, and I don't blame IFC (or any other label really) - you do get a much better shot at the release schedule. the eBay thing is outrageous.
anyway I've gone on too long with this post, but I do hope I explained myself best - can't just make a big comment and not back it up, but I'm happy to. I'll make it clear, I still buy stuff from this label (or their partner labels or whatever), I check my email the first of every month when they announce new stuff, they do good things, but I also don't like the trail they're paving for American home media and a lot of the directions they're taking. I dread more of it, honestly - I may complain about Criterion a lot and it might seem like I'm taking shots at them or whatever, but I don't think they're necessarily threatening the market in any meaningful way. VS' "bringing in" of all these labels and trying to corner so much of the market kinda feels like it to me. maybe I'll be wrong
