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Yeah I use them for Studio Canal titles where I wait for the standard edition.

domino harvey wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:47 pm No no, let’s defend VS some more

No no, let’s continue to clog up the thread pointlessly complaining about the same commonly employed practice over and over and over again.

Cash Flagg wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 1:43 pm

domino harvey wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:47 pm No no, let’s defend VS some more

No no, let’s continue to clog up the thread pointlessly complaining about the same commonly employed practice over and over and over again.

The problem to you shouldn’t be that we keep bringing that up, it’s that we shouldn’t need to. I like VS, I think they do good work but with respect comes a need to point out their flaws, there is no reason why they should do this and to try attacking people who critique it is only enabling them to do it and make predatory actions like this possible.

They (and several other labels, unfortunately), engage in this because it is sound, if shady (as I’ve already labeled it up-thread) business. Given the widespread and assumedly successful adaptation of this restrictive practice, what makes you think the repetitive and redundant hand-wringing of 3-4 random dudes on some obscure internet forum serves any constructive purpose, either within the thread itself, or in actual reality?

Cash Flagg wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:08 pm They (and several other labels, unfortunately), engage in this because it is sound, if shady (as I’ve already labeled it up-thread) business. Given the widespread and assumedly successful adaptation of this restrictive practice, what makes you think the repetitive and redundant hand-wringing of 3-4 random dudes on some obscure internet forum serves any constructive purpose, either within the thread itself, or in actual reality?

One, believe it or not but other labels can announce titles without forcing other retailers not to stock competitors, like I said previously VS’ move to announce Cannibal already got people to cancel their orders so doing this kind of nonsense doesn’t do anything so that practice isn’t as sound as you might think mainly because there’s other options. Secondly, nobody is certainly arguing that we’re going to make anything happen but believe it or not, people still go on these forums and as such, these ideas can certainly spread and for your repetition argument I agree we shouldn’t be doing this just like these labels shouldn’t be doing the scummy things you keep bringing up. Good chat.

Cash Flagg wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:08 pm They (and several other labels, unfortunately), engage in this because it is sound, if shady (as I’ve already labeled it up-thread) business. Given the widespread and assumedly successful adaptation of this restrictive practice, what makes you think the repetitive and redundant hand-wringing of 3-4 random dudes on some obscure internet forum serves any constructive purpose, either within the thread itself, or in actual reality?

you say "3-4 dudes" but this particular incident has gotten them the most negative press they've received so far from such a stunt. Marc from OrbitDVD and Mike from Grindhouse reply a bit in the comments, with Marc's response being pretty good. unfortunately Diabolik, who is the one who gave in first and kinda started enabling this nonsense has not replied, but I do hope they do. the more people talk about this, the more likely it is to change. and it's best for all of us if this scum does change. I guarantee Severin or whatever smaller label wouldn't be doing this if VS couldn't get away with it

hell, if I had the money, I'd be buying Refuse's release of a film I don't even care to watch. honestly feel like buying them all to support them!

and before I get called snarky again....

MichaelB wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:57 pm And if not, what's the difference?

ryannichols7 wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:19 pmI remember when Radiance put out Litan and Severin had to do their sad little "please wait for our edition!!" announcement and what happens? it's buried exclusively in like a $200 boxset.

OrbitDVD’s response makes me happy to support them. Relevant part below

Vinegar Syndrome is the only company that asks us to not carry a competing release, and I'll emphasize "asks," The last one where we could not oblige was Righting Wrongs (too late to cancel). We had both VS and 88, and VS overwhelming outsold 88, to the point where I think we had to mark it down. Maybe that was just an isolated incident, but it made us gun shy about any future overlapping releases.
That being said, I personally believe in the free market and think that the consumer should decide on what they want to purchase. What if you collect a particular label? You will find a copy regardless if we are carrying it or not. Also, I feel that that Vinegar Syndrome is overestimating how many copies we would actually sell of a competing release. If they announce around the same time, a majority of US customers will buy from them. However, I don't like having to tell my customers that they have to look elsewhere.

The fact that he says this IS the only label doing this does, in fact, merit us continuing to talk about it

Cash Flagg wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:08 pm They (and several other labels, unfortunately), engage in this because it is sound, if shady (as I’ve already labeled it up-thread) business.

That's a generous way of saying they're fucking pricks. Add to this their refusal to acknowledge let alone fix bad discs (Phase IV, etc.) and their crass, megalomaniacal expansion, and they've gone from a very interesting underdog to browbeating jerkoffs. Without exception, nerds and geeks are always the biggest bullies when they get a little power.

Before Covid, it was easy and cheap to order out-of-country discs to the USA via various Euro amazon.coms. During and after that, when amazon stopped shipping overseas, there was a dearth of availability (which still persists in some cases) and it was a gloomy time for imports. Lo and behold, not only did Diabolik continue and flourish, but we've seen the encouraging appearance of Orbit, Grindhouse, Atomic Movie Store, and others. Should any one of them refrain to carry item to curry favor with VS or Severin or any other label, it would give me pause and serious reconsideration of my support for both the label in question and the retailer.

NOT COOL

I've always bought a few VS titles every year and continue to do so. My main gripe before this whole fiasco was the fact that they just put out a lot of crap. Maybe 5 titles they announce out of any given year are actually a big deal/cool but they are just pushing things that don't really warrant a fancy resto or much attention anyways.

Maladroit Aggregator wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 1:14 am

Cash Flagg wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 4:08 pm They (and several other labels, unfortunately), engage in this because it is sound, if shady (as I’ve already labeled it up-thread) business.

That's a generous way of saying they're fucking pricks. Add to this their refusal to acknowledge let alone fix bad discs (Phase IV, etc.) and their crass, megalomaniacal expansion, and they've gone from a very interesting underdog to browbeating jerkoffs. Without exception, nerds and geeks are always the biggest bullies when they get a little power.

Before Covid, it was easy and cheap to order out-of-country discs to the USA via various Euro amazon.coms. During and after that, when amazon stopped shipping overseas, there was a dearth of availability (which still persists in some cases) and it was a gloomy time for imports. Lo and behold, not only did Diabolik continue and flourish, but we've seen the encouraging appearance of Orbit, Grindhouse, Atomic Movie Store, and others. Should any one of them refrain to carry item to curry favor with VS or Severin or any other label, it would give me pause and serious reconsideration of my support for both the label in question and the retailer.

NOT COOL

hey, you said it. I will go to bat for the latter though - I know it is unfair to UK/EU consumers that we can import their discs for very reasonable prices, but unfortunately that's not something that can really change much, to no fault of basically any involved party. but it is great for both US consumers and for the UK/EU labels - I'd actually love to know data on how much they make from these US stores selling their products as much as they do. I genuinely think these labels have seen a lot more exposure in America, which is only a good thing - I'd like to think it's helped bring 88, Indicator and Eureka to America, and Radiance was able to start here from the very jump. this is a good thing and I hope it has benefitted everyone - worries of the UK labels coming here and diluting their products/offerings more have been pretty dismissed given what they've released so far. Eureka has been a little slower with US stuff (though The Cat and the Canary and The Valiant Ones are both awesome releases) but they're also the newest. anyway, I am very happy with Marc at Orbit's response and they'll continue to be my store.

black&huge wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 1:34 am I've always bought a few VS titles every year and continue to do so. My main gripe before this whole fiasco was the fact that they just put out a lot of crap. Maybe 5 titles they announce out of any given year are actually a big deal/cool but they are just pushing things that don't really warrant a fancy resto or much attention anyways.

I still have yet to own one of their actual releases, though I'll pick up their Piotr Szulkin set since I love those films and also quite enjoy the contributions from a commentator who posts in this very thread, even though the Radiance set blows it out of the water, but anyway. I buy the partner label stuff and honestly a pretty healthy amount of it, and I unfortunately am OCD enough to try and just get the slipcover only ones - the releases already feel really amateur to me as a physical product, the slipcover at least makes it feel a little more legitimate. but at the end of the day, I can be mad they're sinking their capital into 4K restorations and HDR grades of pure, unadulterated garbage while numerous filmmakers I love have rough old DVDs as their only offerings...or I can just accept that it's a losing battle because there are a cultish amount of people who are willing to pony up the cash for Slumber Party Slashers 4 Want Revenge or whatever nonsense they're releasing. it's not my cinema, but it's clearly the cinema of others, and there's no stopping it at this point. none of this is my issue with VS, it's their business practices that are revolting, and the more traction these complaints are getting, the more likely they are to change. and I really, genuinely hope they do. this label is the biggest threat to the boutique market in the United States and they're trying their hardest to be a threat to it abroad too, for US consumers, but as this small upstart label Refuse Films is making it clear, it's hurting them as well. and that's not at all cool and ultimately extremely hypocritical for a label who claims to support the small guy

On the other hand, VS was able to cough up the dough to release Singapore Sling, a title I believe Fran mentioned was impossibly expensive to clear the rights for. So they presumably are doing some good putting their money to use by releasing some stuff that other labels might not be able to muster the capital to put out

In what way are VS the “biggest threat to the boutique market in the United States”?

Did VS hold a gun to Film Movement’s head and tell them to join or die? Were Deaf Croc and Fun City prevented from leaving?

Surely the biggest threat to the US boutique market is streaming, shrinking numbers of disc manufacturers etc?

There are some hyperboles, I think, as VS's practices seem to be mostly limited to them and not spreading that much.

This being written, I do think, like others, that specialised boards like here can provide factual informations about a specific business' practices, and enlighten consumers who might want to vote and support some practices and not others with their wallets.

I used to buy a lot from VS, but have reduced that a lot because, like others, the rate of stuff I didn't find interesting was just way too high to keep going at this pace. Still, I do think they're doing great preservation work, even if on movies many wouldn't deem prioritary to work on. But somebody's handling them, doing them good, I think it's a positive. But I too think they went from being some smaller quirky label to some huge powerhouse, and their practices evolved with that (including becoming cardboard sellers). Again, I think it can be fair for US rightholders to ensure what doesn't have US rights isn't sold in the US because, well, it contractually shouldn't, but VS is sold in France for instance, or in the UK, through Diabolik-like stores (and I do know at least one label that wasn't happy when a foreign label rushed the announcement of their domestic release very quickly after the French label, as it clearly wasn't a coincidental timing - I can't remember if the foreign label was VS or not, my memory tells me Yes, but I don't remember the title so I can't check). So it goes both ways, and if a label only wants to make that one-way, it's only fair for a specialised topic to have potential consumers be aware of this, so they can buy (or not) knowing this.

We have in Europe a few labels I don't buy from because I don't like their practices, just like there are some movies I'm not buying or reviewing because I don't want to give these money or visibility. It's OK, IMO, to also include practices in what you want to support or not.

domino harvey wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 11:38 am If you catch RareWaves during one of their monthly or so discount codes, it’s a good deal for international releases and shipping is a flat fee

RWTEN gives you 10% off over 20 pounds through 9/30.

black&huge wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 1:34 am My main gripe before this whole fiasco was the fact that they just put out a lot of crap.

I love exploitation and horror [-(

luxta wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 6:24 pm

black&huge wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 1:34 am My main gripe before this whole fiasco was the fact that they just put out a lot of crap.

I love exploitation and horror [-(

Good on you.

Is one of the benefits of OCN distribution / VS partner labels that they provide a kind of end-to-end operation from authoring to duplication to distribution? I can see that being appealing to small labels that are just 1-2 people, even if they take a significant percentage of sales. I appreciate that labels like Deaf Crocodile and Altered Innocence might outgrow the arrangement, but on the other hand I am much less aware of what they are releasing and when.

I do not think they are doing authoring. Factory 25 consistently uses Dolby Digital audio whereas if VS was doing the authoring, it'd probably be lossless. I contacted VS awhile back b/c their website was listing the audio of some F25 releases as DTS-HD, but they turned out to only be Dolby Digital. VS said they were only listing what Factory 25 told them and I should contact F25. The IFC release of Claire Denis' "Bastards" has been reported to use a bad master and has burned-in subtitles when they had been reported to be optional, and when a user contacted VS, they were told they needed to contact IFC.

therewillbeblus wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 3:44 am On the other hand, VS was able to cough up the dough to release Singapore Sling, a title I believe Fran mentioned was impossibly expensive to clear the rights for. So they presumably are doing some good putting their money to use by releasing some stuff that other labels might not be able to muster the capital to put out

and that's certainly cool! the much wished for Looking for Mr. Goodbar is another one they've teased apparently, and you'll find posts on this forum from eons ago wishing for that to be rescued (at the time, by Criterion, though unlikely now)

Peacock wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2024 6:38 am In what way are VS the “biggest threat to the boutique market in the United States”?

Did VS hold a gun to Film Movement’s head and tell them to join or die? Were Deaf Croc and Fun City prevented from leaving?

Surely the biggest threat to the US boutique market is streaming, shrinking numbers of disc manufacturers etc?

they're just clearly marketing for a collecting audience rather than a consuming one if you ask me. to me, they appeal stronger to the people who leave everything in shrinkwrap rather than watch the discs. they have no problem charging high prices for a lot of their releases and I fear that'll only get worse, which sure, it's their right and clearly people will pay it. they aren't alone in this as we've noted upthread, but considering they keep absorbing the smaller labels and distributors, it's not really reassuring. plus they're scalper friendly, and that's the last thing we need. sabotaging indie store sales is pretty unacceptable too, and the fact that they are noted by one of these stores as the only label doing this, means they're the only ones trying to monopolize the way they are. as I've noted on this board, Criterion and Kino have no problem sharing extras with the UK labels (The Great Escape, announced today by Arrow, contains extras produced by each label), let alone their product being sold in the US. Vinegar Syndrome bullying these stores not to while having the audacity to say this in a public forum is galling.

sure those are threats, but this is a label creating their own threats

Matt wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 1:21 am Is one of the benefits of OCN distribution / VS partner labels that they provide a kind of end-to-end operation from authoring to duplication to distribution? I can see that being appealing to small labels that are just 1-2 people, even if they take a significant percentage of sales. I appreciate that labels like Deaf Crocodile and Altered Innocence might outgrow the arrangement, but on the other hand I am much less aware of what they are releasing and when.

the esteemed "operations manager" says all the time that the labels are the labels and VS just puts out what they give them. I think the big advantage in signing on for VS is getting access to an obsessive fanbase that buys the product regardless of whether they're interested in it or not

ryannichols7 wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 6:14 am sure those are threats, but this is a label creating their own threats

Remember folks: conspiracy is, oftentimes, the last refuge for personal agency.

On scapling: try meeting a Hot Wheels collector in real life, and watch your life change. Furthermore, anyone that really needs a lenticular RAD poster should probably pay $300 for the pleasure.

On JLaLibs: he's actually just you and/or most of us, but can write off his physical media purchases for business expenses. Geeks are only as powerful as you let them be...in your mindspace.

On Goodbar: of course, it's coming! But your wallet-to-scumbag ratio may pinch a bit (but only when Joe Rubin laughs).

On hyperbole: most reddit forums are really just Hot Wheels forums in disguise, but that's something we all have to eventually figure out for ourselves.

ryannichols7 wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 6:14 aman obsessive fanbase that buys the product regardless of whether they're interested in it or not

Ask yourself this: who is more pathetic? Someone so obsessed with a label that they collect and then never watch any their releases, or someone so obsessed with a label that they continuously spout vague, unsubstantiated, and wildly melodramatic conspiracy theories in a thread devoted to a label, that, by their own admission, they don't own a single release from?. At least the collectors that you so broadly denigrate are (mostly) cheerful about their obsession. Believe me - one-note, bitter would-be elitists with recyled Ozu avatars are as common, and as useless, as any VS fanboy.

Cash Flagg wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 10:38 am

ryannichols7 wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 6:14 aman obsessive fanbase that buys the product regardless of whether they're interested in it or not

Ask yourself this: who is more pathetic? Someone so obsessed with a label that they collect and then never watch any their releases, or someone so obsessed with a label that they continuously spout vague, unsubstantiated, and wildly melodramatic conspiracy theories in a thread devoted to a label, that, by their own admission, they don't own a single release from?. At least the collectors that you so broadly denigrate are (mostly) cheerful about their obsession. Believe me - one-note, bitter would-be elitists with recyled Ozu avatars are as common, and as useless, as any VS fanboy.

as I stated above, I own plenty of partner releases, which I had to purchase from their Bridgeport warehouse. even if I don't own a mainline vinegar syndrome release, I have the right to complain about this whole "OCN Distribution" thing and it's practices. you can claim I'm not cheerful but I have plenty of positive things here to say about the labels I do collect from, and have complained about Criterion, Arrow, etc in the past. constructive criticism is healthy, we pay a lot of money for these products, and not being able to buy products from some labels here in the US from the smaller, independent stores I want to support, is the issue I have here. Arrow have improved on a lot of things, for example, and I think due in large part because they listen to their fanbase as best they can (not counting the stuff THG force on them)

call me one note, bitter, and useless all you want (didn't realize namecalling was accepted), but my posting across this board and contributions to the list projects and various votes will disprove you. I make a range of different posts in this forum and discuss the films when my thoughts allow me to write a solid post (I don't just copy and paste my letterboxd entries) about them. and insulting my avatar is just weird. I've tried to upload a different one but this board is picky about what it'll take. I'd rather have one from Equinox Flower, personally

Cash Flagg: do not continue your behavior of making personal attacks on members here if you wish to remain a member yourself. You are allowed to defend VS, and others are allowed to criticize them. If you find this topic so difficult to stay even-keeled about, perhaps take a break from reading this thread

MichaelB wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:51 pm Vinegar Syndrome are by no means unique in trying to restrict the sale of competing non-US releases. In fact, this is (convincingly) rumoured to be why Sony started to enforce region-locking on Indicator titles circa 2019-20, because US rightsholders complained to them that letting them be region-free was encouraging Americans to import.

And, to be absolutely fair, I do have a certain amount of sympathy, because US rights are typically a fair bit more expensive than UK ones (since they're usually pegged to market size), and so I can easily understand why a label that may well have spent more money than a rival to secure a particular title is miffed about that rival's cheaper-to-produce edition being easy to get hold of in the US, especially since they're not technically supposed to be selling it outside the UK (or wherever they've licensed it for). Sometimes they even make this explicit, as with Second Sight's editions of George Romero films, which SS is contractually not allowed to sell outside the UK.

And while I'm not sure that I'd personally go to the lengths of actively trying to prevent its circulation, I do genuinely understand where they're coming from. And it's certainly not fair to scapegoat just one label over this.

Unless I am missing something, isn't this why Vinegar Syndrome is being singled out because their approach is different (or appears different based on public information) from what has typically occurred? In the past, hasn't there have been instances where boutique labels (not just corporations like Sony) have asked a competing label across the pond to region lock their release? IIRC, this occurred between Shout and Arrow (but I do not remember the film) and both companies agreed to region lock out of professional courtesy even if the rights holders did not require it. Going to third-party vendors and asking them not to distribute an item becomes the unique aspect. It has vibes of Fat Tony flipping over a hot dog stand declaring this a pretzel town as opposed to providing the courtesy and getting consent from a fellow label to "stick with the region rules" that they licensed for.

Maybe Vinegar Syndrome attempted this approach. There is obviously no way of knowing if the relevant parties do not release this information. In my opinion, a "strong-arm-the-vendors" seems to be an odd approach by itself. For effectiveness, one has to ask multiple parties for buy-in instead of just one. Additionally, I think the public perception between the two (especially in niche communities) is quite different. I think labels and fans understand the "leveling the playing field" aspect with region locking more than dragging independent vendors into the middle of something.

Region-locking is different than preventing the circulation of goods overall, and requested by the right-holders, not foreign labels. A deal can be that label A will region-lock if label B does too, but the deal will be, AFAIK, in the licensing deal, not between the labels. When it's between them, it seem also like a different negociation than, say, a supplier pressuring a dealer not to offer a competing product by using his weight in the sales as a lever, ie it looks more like a two-way discussion, not an asymetrical one.

(Side note : I still wonder about the seemingly specific targetting of Criterion by JLaLibs, as he does buy a lot of them, and also, you'll never guess who went to the Criterion Mobile Closet)
(But answered he doesn't remember what he picked to someone who asked him)