criterionforum.org

I didn't mean to imply it was "intellectually minor" in any way. But I think it was the beginning of yet another moment where Godard changes his golf swing. To me it's analogous to ONE PLUS ONE. It's still very much worth watching if you're a Godard fan, but formally, and even conceptually, the film doesn't strike me as one of his masterpieces.

This could also be that it comes just after KING LEAR, a film that IMHO is an absolute triumph all around. And knowing that few may agree with me on that statement, I can see why someone might feel similarly to KEEP YOUR RIGHT UP. It seems to me that post-Dziga Vertov, there really is no general consensus on which films of his are "minor" or "major," at least I haven't seen anything of the sort. Instead it really just comes down to personal taste.

justeleblanc wrote:I didn't mean to imply it was "intellectually minor" in any way. But I think it was the beginning of yet another moment where Godard changes his golf swing. To me it's analogous to ONE PLUS ONE. It's still very much worth watching if you're a Godard fan, but formally, and even conceptually, the film doesn't strike me as one of his masterpieces.

Agreed. I'm not sure ANY Godard film would ever qualify as "intellectually minor," but this one just wasn't as satisfying to me as the other 80s Godard films I've seen. The comparison to One + One is particularly apt, I think. In this film, Godard doesn't use the strictly formalist band/vignette alternating structure that he used in the earlier work, so it's easier to miss, but there is a definite sense of one (band recording a song) plus one (acted scene about commerce and culture and art). In this sense, we can see the changes that have taken place in the 20 years between the two films. In the earlier film, there was a genuine connection between the music and the political vigenettes -- the Stones' song used historical events as a commentary on the evil in their present-day society, a technique that certainly resonated with the history-conscious Godard.

There is no such connection in the later song, except in the sense that the French band's lightweight pop song reflects and mirrors the lightweight values of late 80s society. I'm not sure if this was Godard's intention or not, and indeed at least part of the problem I had with the film was that I wasn't quite sure how Godard felt about the band he's featuring. He treats them, on a formal level, basically the same as the Stones in One + One, but the sheer inanity of the music doesn't really warrant the same close attention. So, for me at least, the film serves as a 20-years-later commentary on the failures of music -- among the other arts -- to continue its social and political relevance. But, again, there's still that nagging uncertainty about whether Godard intended this, or if he really just genuinely loved this band and wanted to showcase them; the film doesn't really offer any clues that I grasped, at least on first viewing.

I liked the song in Keep Your Right Up

Well, liking it or not is totally subjective, which is one reason I'm a bit hesitant about my interpretation. But unless I'm forgetting something, the song was pretty much a standard 80s synth-pop love song, lacking in the kind of political content or social commentary of "Sympathy for the Devil." So my interpretation doesn't so much hinge on me not liking the song (though I didn't) but on whether or not Godard thought it was a good song.

Outside of an interview I've read where he praises the Beatles and the Rolling Stones for being intellectual while popular, I don't think there's any evidence that Godard likes any modern music.

domino harvey wrote:Outside of an interview I've read where he praises the Beatles and the Rolling Stones for being intellectual while popular, I don't think there's any evidence that Godard likes any modern music.

Tom Waits? Ye-ye?

justeleblanc wrote:I didn't mean to imply it was "intellectually minor" in any way. But I think it was the beginning of yet another moment where Godard changes his golf swing.

After years being a desperate Godard junkie i often felt that "change of golf swing" at some point of his career. But now i think/feel that this "change" is not just a new beginning of another chapter but the "change" itself is the overall chapter of his body of work. I know this sounds naive. but if you start watching Godard, you just go for the "fresh" inovations first and let the "random" stuff aside. If you take a closer look and learn/read/watch more about the director you will get the impression that he is (still!) constantly mixing pop culture, pulp, silly jokes etc. with serious historical and intellectual phenomenons. What i am trying to say is, that it is difficult (imo) to classify his work in this way…

justeleblanc wrote:It seems to me that post-Dziga Vertov, there really is no general consensus on which films of his are "minor" or "major," at least I haven't seen anything of the sort.

I think the only "general consensus" on this case is A BOUT DE SOUFFLE!? And after the 70s? Hmm ... i think what makes it difficult is the fact that there are not enough people knowing these films - ergo it is hard to speak of a "general consensus" If we would start talking about NOUVELLE VAGUE i think we would pretty much all agree that this is the most beautifully shot film of Godards 90s films, right? It would be interesting to talk about the Histoire(s) and its (general) relevance - but it is difficult and so again difficult to find a "consensus".

By the way, i wouldn't say that Godard doesn't like any modern music… Dude is not old school!

justeleblanc wrote:

domino harvey wrote:Outside of an interview I've read where he praises the Beatles and the Rolling Stones for being intellectual while popular, I don't think there's any evidence that Godard likes any modern music.

Tom Waits? Ye-ye?

forgot about Waits in Carmen, but I think it's safe to say his use of french pop in the 60s films was not to highlight its good qualities

If we're going to go by what he uses in his films, Godard certainly likes much modern music: Gyorgy Kurtag, Meredith Monk, Gavin Bryars, Arvo Part, Heinz Holliger, Giya Kancheli, et al. Granted, these all come from ECM recordings that Manfred Eichler lets him use on the cheap, but as he's been using them for almost 20 years now I have to assume there's something he likes about them, as there's plenty of other music released by ECM that Godard doesn't seem to favor as much as the sort that shows up in his films.

domino harvey wrote:

justeleblanc wrote:

domino harvey wrote:Outside of an interview I've read where he praises the Beatles and the Rolling Stones for being intellectual while popular, I don't think there's any evidence that Godard likes any modern music.

Tom Waits? Ye-ye?

forgot about Waits in Carmen, but I think it's safe to say his use of french pop in the 60s films was not to highlight its good qualities

This is naïve, and untrue. (For what it's worth.) Never minding the fact that Godard keeps abreast of everything, and exists far from the popular film-buff ideas of snobbism (-everything- has some intellectual potential-energy, after all, in Godard and "in reality"), off the top of my head I can think of Bob Dylan (by mention) and Chantal Goya (naturally) in 'Masculin Féminin'; Leonard Cohen, Otis Redding, Tom Waits ("Ruby's Arms" redux), and Ton Steine Scherben in the 'Histoire(s) du cinéma' (the last one being a repeat from a clip in 'Allemagne année 90 neuf zéro'); Marianne Faithfull in 'Made in U.S.A.'; Barbra Streisand, Leonard Cohen (again), and many more in 'On s'est tous défilé'; and Serge Gainsbourg's great "Aux armes et cetaera" in 'Liberté et patrie.'

Anyway, regardless of received wisdom, there is as much love in Godard's films as quote-unquote satire. He liked a lot of yé-yé music, and was especially fond of so-called "novelty 45s" in the '60s.

And, lest I forget one of the greatest pop-music instances in Godard -- Claudes Channes in 'La Chinoise.'

FYI, the band in 'Keep Your Right Up' is Les Rita Mitsouko. The album being recorded in the film is 'The No Comprendo.'

Patti Smith's "Distant Fingers" sounds great in Nouvelle Vague, too.

I do not accept that an inclusion of a piece of music or mentioning a musician constitutes endorsement

domino harvey wrote:I do not accept that an inclusion of a piece of music or mentioning a musician constitutes endorsement

Maybe you'd accept his fondness for some of these artists, and take my word for it, if you read any of the hundreds of French interviews with him over the decades in Cahiers, Libération, Les Inrocks, and books such as 'Depuis trente ans,' 'Godard par Godard,' 'For Ever Godard,' 'The Future(s) of Film,' and 'Jean-Luc Godard: Documents.'

I presume you can "accept" his use of the second movement of Beethoven's 7th in 'JLG/JLG,' but not of Cohen's "Came So Far for Beauty" in the 'Histoire(s).' With that standard one can only assume he's "mocking" Rita Hayworth and "Put the Blame on Mame" in the latter.

It's a leettle-beet that you sound like a snob, but a leettle-beet more like you don't know what you're talking about.

craig.

evillights wrote:It's a leettle-beet that you sound like a snob, but a leettle-beet more like you don't know what you're talking about.

Let's try to avoid the Crossfire jabs...

As for Godard, I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume that his appreciation for both art cinema and popular cinema would also carry over into his appreciation for art music and popular music. Keep in mind Anna Karina was a pop singer when he married her, and he was always fascinated with youth culture -- and I assume that includes their fashion, their music, and their politics.

He himself was pretty young in the "Karina days" and of course the pop culture reference is pretty obvious in his 60s work - but don't forget, as evillights points out, that it is still present in his most recent works - not just in the hyper intellectual and serious Histoire(s)! I think this is really important to know to get a feel/understanding of these works, because without that people will over and over again put him in that role of an overly pretentious filmmaker.

The "mocking" of Rita Hayworth is just one-but good-example and i think anybody ignoring this way of using this (any) kind of sound and image will probably misinterpret most of his work…

Btw, i would like to start a research thread for "later/recent" Godard images - i would really like to know where the "moving screen" image is coming from - it is in the Histoire(s) but more obvious in the last minutes of DANS LE NOIRE DU TEMPS - looks like some art installation - any info on that?

thanks,
axel

justeleblanc wrote:As for Godard, I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume that his appreciation for both art cinema and popular cinema would also carry over into his appreciation for art music and popular music.

I'm curious as to what popular cinema Godard has acknowledged his appreciation for.

jackson_browne wrote:

justeleblanc wrote:As for Godard, I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume that his appreciation for both art cinema and popular cinema would also carry over into his appreciation for art music and popular music.

I'm curious as to what popular cinema Godard has acknowledged his appreciation for.

Jerry Lewis, B-Movie Detective films, Hollywood Musicals, Hollywood Westerns, Lemmy Caution films, Woody Allen films, Clint Eastwood, Lubitsch comedies, Hitchcock, Frank Tashlin, Stanley Donen, Bob Fosse, Hatari, Billy Wilder, Vincent Minelli, Chaplin, Hawks, Ford, and I'm sure there's more.

Like 'Terminator 2' (ditto Rivette), 'The Sixth Sense' (ditto Rivette), 'Hannah and Her Sisters,' and one particular scene in 'American Beauty' involving that video-camera: "For a moment, it becomes 'Faces'."

craig.

The AMERICAN BEAUTY quote is from a Cahiers interview and with FACES he meant the one from Cassavetes, but then i must admit i didn't understand that comparison…? Was it just the way the "boy" is shooting the "girl" - like in a pretty "amateurish/realistic/cassavetes" way/style?

Nevertheless, Godard is never too shy to support young filmmakers like Makhmalbaf, Korine and Gallo… he praised SIB in Cannes and there is a shot in ELOGE DE L'AMOUR where Edgar is looking at a SIB movie poster…

Seven early Godards (A bout de souffle, Le Petit soldat, Le Mépris, Pierrot le Fou, Made in USA, Une Femme est une femme and Alphaville), are being issued by Studio Canal and Cahiers du Cinéma in remastered French editions under the supervision of Raoul Coutard. Cover art here (you may need sunglasses). No mention of subtitles.

love those covers, even though it's pretty funny that they'd paint Brialy out of his starring role

Kinsayder wrote:Seven early Godards (A bout de souffle, Le Petit soldat, Le Mépris, Pierrot le Fou, Made in USA, Une Femme est une femme and Alphaville), are being issued by Studio Canal and Cahiers du Cinéma in remastered French editions under the supervision of Raoul Coutard. Cover art here (you may need sunglasses). No mention of subtitles.

I agree with Domino--I love the covers. I'm really hoping, however (probably inappropriate for this thread, but whatever) that this leads to a remastered criterion edition of Alphaville.

A re-release of Alphaville would be the best excuse possible to include Godard's Germany 90 Nine Zero on a second disc, his "sequel" to Alphaville that has not been released with English subs on DVD in any region. I watched a fan-subbed version from KG and its one of Godard's best recent films and certainly deserving of more viewers.

This all should, presumably, be good news for the upcoming Optimum R2 Boxset...