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Recently revisited this film, and I placed an order for Le Doulos and Le Deuxieme Souffle from B&N, but is this Melville's greatest achievement? I loved Le Samourai and Army of Shadows, Bob le Flambeur had its kicks, but overall I feel this is his best film that I have seen, and I was wondering what other people thought about Melville's work and in particular on their opinion of Le Cercle Rouge.

psufootball07 wrote:Recently revisited this film, and I placed an order for Le Doulos and Le Deuxieme Souffle from B&N, but is this Melville's greatest achievement? I loved Le Samourai and Army of Shadows, Bob le Flambeur had its kicks, but overall I feel this is his best film that I have seen, and I was wondering what other people thought about Melville's work and in particular on their opinion of Le Cercle Rouge.

I have seen all of Melville's films and Le cercle rouge is my favourite. I find it's plot and narrative exposition the most interesting and entertaining and the rapor of the disparate characters - both crooks and cops - is terrific. The burglary of the jewellry store is one of the greatest set pieces in Cinema, I feel.

I feel Army of Shadows is a more immediately satisfying and impressive film, but in certain moods I might say this one is better. It feels more pared down, refined - more perfect. This may partly be because, to me, Melville's real stumbling block was women (in Silence, Flambeur, Samourai, Shadows and especially Le Doulos), but in Le cercle rouge this stumbling block is calmly moved to one side and then ignored.

In Army of Shadows, Melville combined the rather cold, cool brilliance of his style with emotionally devastating material, and part of Le Cercle's greatness is in the way it retains something of that power to move - that sense of having something quite profound to say about the human condition, lacking in the earlier films - without compromising its cool, detached heist-movie aesthetic. The first time I saw it, I was surprised to find that I actually had tears in my eyes at the end. This may sound pretentious, but Le Cercle Rouge is one of the great gangster tragedies, and in that sense is a very worthy successor to what is, in my view, the king of kings in this genre - The Asphalt Jungle. It has the same weeping-Buddha's-eye-view, the same desperation and despair about the doom-laden 'jungle' that is the modern world, but without ever quite seeming to sink into macho self-pity (at least not while you're watching it).

psufootball07 wrote:Recently revisited this film, and I placed an order for Le Doulos and Le Deuxieme Souffle from B&N, but is this Melville's greatest achievement? I loved Le Samourai and Army of Shadows, Bob le Flambeur had its kicks, but overall I feel this is his best film that I have seen, and I was wondering what other people thought about Melville's work and in particular on their opinion of Le Cercle Rouge.

I think 'L'Armee' is his greatest film; 'Bob' is just sheer delight, coming from out of leftfield, but I consider 'Cercle' to be his finest straight crime film, and one of the great gangster films, period.

L'aîné des Ferchaux is also a brilliant film, I feel. I saw it recently in a decent (it was a bit blocky) 2.35:1 anamorphic DVD-R with homemade english subs. Charles Vanel's performance is awesome. One of the great buddy/road movies I reckon and looooong overdue a legit english subbed, OAR video release.

Since I could not find a review of this film on this site, it appears that Gary believes the films color tones/palette appears quite off. Can anyone confirm which version more closely resembles Melville's vision?

The Criterion has more "natural" color, while the BFI is much cooler. No one really knows for sure what Melville's (and Decaë's) intentions were, but it is generally accepted that he favored a cool, bluish tinge to the image in the color films. The ideal color balance for this film may actually be somewhere in between the Criterion and the BFI. But in light of certain recent drastic color makeovers (The French Connection, Do The Right Thing), the color differences for Le cercle rouge seem practically inconsequential.

At any rate, this should not keep you from watching whatever version of the film you can most conveniently and immediately get your hands on. After the first few minutes, you'll forget all about any color issues.

I used to think that the BFI had the most accurate color scheme, but now I reckon that the Criterion has superior fidelity. Billiards is played on a green baize, for one thing and the BFI just seems a bit blown out, contrast wise, though both transfers are very good. Am I tripping, or do the BFI have a Blu-ray planned?

Person wrote:Billiards is played on a green baize, for one thing?

The Ginette Vincendeau book specifies a green baize (in contrast with the red cue chalk), but who knows if she was looking at a good reference print or just some old third-generation VHS for her research.

Person wrote:Am I tripping, or do the BFI have a Blu-ray planned?

The BFI Melville DVDs seem to have disappeared from stores, replaced by Optimum/Studio Canal disks. Sadly, the excellent Vincendeau commentary for Rouge seems to have been dropped. I don't know if they're new transfers or not, however.

Matt wrote:

Person wrote:Billiards is played on a green baize, for one thing?

The Ginette Vincendeau book specifies a green baize (in contrast with the red cue chalk), but who knows if she was looking at a good reference print or just some old third-generation VHS for her research.

You do get a red cue chalk. It doesn't seem to be as widely used these days, but I used to see it in pool and snooker halls as a child. However the color of the chalk is supposed to correspond to the color of the table's baize, so who knows what is going in regard to Le cercle, Matt!

The drinking glasses in the bar in the fifth capture of Beaver's comparison are blown out - most detail is lost and this contrast boost is evident throughout. I do now feel that the BFI is more likely to have the stronger fidelity but as you say, once this magnificent film gets under way, it's so absorbing that you don't worry about such things. The BFI looked great when I watched it a few weeks ago. I would, however, like a flawless transfer of L'aîné des Ferchaux to replace the DVD-R I have.

kieslowski wrote: The BFI Melville DVDs seem to have disappeared from stores, replaced by Optimum/Studio Canal disks. Sadly, the excellent Vincendeau commentary for Rouge seems to have been dropped. I don't know if they're new transfers or not, however.

The Vincendeau commentary is on the Optimum disc, at least it is in the Melville box set.

Person wrote:I used to think that the BFI had the most accurate color scheme, but now I reckon that the Criterion has superior fidelity. Billiards is played on a green baize, for one thing and the BFI just seems a bit blown out, contrast wise, though both transfers are very good. Am I tripping, or do the BFI have a Blu-ray planned?

Delon is not playing billiards in the film, but carambole, a French version of the game with three balls and no pockets. If you look it up on wikipedia or other sources, you will readily find photos with blue coverings for the table. And I have seen a few tables for American billiards with a blue covering.

As for the film itself, the BFI color balance is much closer to what I remember from seeing the movie in theatrical release. It was a long time ago, I grant you. I do recall the cool and muted quality of the color scheme, something Melville generally asked of his cinematographers, but certainly not the general greenish tint we see on the Criterion.

The Beev:

I think the addition of the French Studio Canal edition helps to prove that the Criterion color is off (skin tones are far too red - greenish tinge). It is most prevalent in looking at the pool table. Perhaps Criterion used that as a reference point (assuming it should be standard green) ands hence the entire DVD's color balance is messed up. Although the Studio Canal disc has good detail and sharpness, it is blocked by the brightness boosting, which appears to be quite strong. I am going with the BFI version in image color and as well as them for the Extras (commentary). Remember: the Studio Canal has no English subs on the feature or Extras !



There is an obvious color disparity between these two releases and it if extremely difficult to know positively which is correct. the Criterion is very green and dark and the BFI looks to have had some contrast boosting with the colors appearing a shade colder and washed out. The Criterion is sharper and going by that I will lean towards them for the more accurate color, although Melville used blues a lot and looking at the Le Samourai Review - the BFI may actually be the true edition.

I hope this straightens everything out.

HerrSchreck wrote:I hope this straightens everything out.

Well, no. I mean, Gary's a great guy who provides an invaluable service, etc., but when presented with an option, he's always favored the cooler-toned transfer. I don't really have much of an opinion one way or another on the color matter, but Gary is not an unassailable authority on color balance. Of course, you may have been saying that very thing with a dry sarcasm, but I'm too dense to notice.

Florinaldo wrote:Delon is not playing billiards in the film, but carambole, a French version of the game with three balls and no pockets.

Not to be pedantic, but carambole is a type of billiards. "Billiards" is a general term, under which is classified many different types of games played with balls on tables and usually with a cue.

The best transfer is the BFI because it rules. Lock thread

domino harvey wrote:The best transfer is the BFI because it rules. Lock thread

Well, I mean, it's really immaterial at this point, isn't it? Pick the DVD you think looks best. If it doesn't matter to you, get the one that's most convenient. The only way to determine the "correct" color is to look at a properly-timed original release print. Everyone else in a position to deliver an authoritative opinion is long dead.

I'm not sure this moves the needle too much, but I saw Rialto's print and I'm fairly certain it looked like the Criterion more than the BFI. My preference in terms of what I think Melville intended is with the latter, but Criterion has often drawn heat for altering the blues into more neutral territory and I now suspect it might have been more due to what they were working with via Rialto than anything done specifically on the Criterion telecine.

Matt wrote:

HerrSchreck wrote:I hope this straightens everything out.

Well, no. I mean, Gary's a great guy who provides an invaluable service, etc., but when presented with an option, he's always favored the cooler-toned transfer. I don't really have much of an opinion one way or another on the color matter, but Gary is not an unassailable authority on color balance. Of course, you may have been saying that very thing with a dry sarcasm, but I'm too dense to notice.

Florinaldo wrote:Delon is not playing billiards in the film, but carambole, a French version of the game with three balls and no pockets.

Not to be pedantic, but carambole is a type of billiards. "Billiards" is a general term, under which is classified many different types of games played with balls on tables and usually with a cue.

I'm sorry Matt, I didn't really mean to be substantively jumping into the discussion, I was just nosing around over at gary's site to check out the Studio Canal disc and see what it looked like, and was taken aback by how confusing Gery's verbal review was-- that's all I meant to point out. I really hadn't read all of the thread, though Gordon's comments cracked me up a touch:

Person wrote:I used to think that the BFI had the most accurate color scheme, but now I reckon that the Criterion has superior fidelity.

then the next day

Person wrote:I do now feel that the BFI is more likely to have the stronger fidelity

(Grips side of head to keep brains from spilling out ears:)

"I'M SO CONFUUSED!"

(Crash of window glass, sound resembling watermelon hitting pavement.)

All joking aside, personally I prefer the look of the CC, it looks far more filmic to me, and the flesh tones of the BFI look a little corpselike. But it's just based entirely on preference, and not history or evidence. I never saw the film onscreen, much less in an original print. So I'm a sideline spectator in all this.

I must have got a bigger crack pipe for Christmas or something. I meant to say that the Criterion looks the truer of the two (BFI vs. Criterion). The BFI looks quite blow out, contrast wise, at times. The Criterion looks more film-like. But the BFI looks good on most tubes.

Just watch the fucking film, you cunts!

Having seen this screened a few times, my view is that the BFI disc is a good and close representation of the film in terms of colour and tone.

Sheriff Chambers wrote:Having seen this screened a few times, my view is that the BFI disc is a good and close representation of the film in terms of colour and tone.

Well, like souvenir, I saw the Rialto print a couple of times just before the Criterion disc came out and the Criterion is a good and close representation of what I saw. Again, unless one is comparing the discs with an original release print approved by Melville or Decaë, one is just stating a preference.

But yeah, just watch the film.

I'm not stating a preference but acknowledging the fact that the BFI disc very closely resembles what I saw theatrically – just as you are.

Quite agree though – see the film.

Matt wrote:Not to be pedantic

Sorry, you did not quite succeed.
Actually, I probably made two wrong assumptions: that most posters here are from the US, and that over there, most people would equate billiards with pool.

As for the color timing of the DVDs, after the last few exchanges I popped the two editions in the player to refresh my memory. I still am of the opinion that the BFI is closest to what I saw in the theater in the early or mid-70s; of course, since this was probably not the first run of the film, perhaps the green tinge seen on the Criterion had mysteriously vanished.

One advantage the Criterion has is that subtitles are not burnt-in. Thankfully, there are long stretches without any dialogue, which somewhat dampens this mistake by BFI. And the Vincendeau commentary is very valuable.

I didn't seen the movie in theaters (I'm only 22), but I've never seen it for a re-release neither (I'm French and we don't do much re-release in fact), so my only experience with the movie is the Criterion DVD and I have to say that the colors were very good for a viewing. I've read the Beaver comparison and I think that even if it's not the closest to Melville's wishes, it can give the viewer the best presentation for a nice screening (colors, contrast, sharpness) without being too far away from what seems to be the Melville's wishes.

It seems, from the Beaver's capture, that the Studio Canal release is far too bright and the BFI lacks of sharpness and details and is kind of bright too.