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dda1996a wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:17 pm Big shame, as I have yet to watch the original cut, but at 3 hours this is simply grating and unnecessary

I found it grating and unnecessary at two hours. An extra hour -- non, merci.

DRW.mov wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:11 pmThe real question is if Criterion is going to resurrect Moon in the Gutter from obscurity as well? (Same rights holder as BB, and in desperate need of a new restoration/transfer/critical reappraisal)

Already out on Blu-Ray in the states from Cinema Libre, which also released the theatrical cut of this on Blu (which is presumably why it’s not included here)

Going by the description, looks to be the same older master used on overseas blu releases.

domino harvey wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:14 pm

DRW.mov wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:11 pmThe real question is if Criterion is going to resurrect Moon in the Gutter from obscurity as well? (Same rights holder as BB, and in desperate need of a new restoration/transfer/critical reappraisal)

Already out on Blu-Ray in the states from Cinema Libre, which also released the theatrical cut of this on Blu (which is presumably why it’s not included here)

The Cinema Libre Moon in the Gutter Blu is one of the worst I've ever seen. Their Betty Blue Blu also has some issues, including some kind of awful filtering that makes it look like motion smoothing is on.

dustysomers wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:47 am

domino harvey wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:14 pm

DRW.mov wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:11 pmThe real question is if Criterion is going to resurrect Moon in the Gutter from obscurity as well? (Same rights holder as BB, and in desperate need of a new restoration/transfer/critical reappraisal)

Already out on Blu-Ray in the states from Cinema Libre, which also released the theatrical cut of this on Blu (which is presumably why it’s not included here)

The Cinema Libre Moon in the Gutter Blu is one of the worst I've ever seen. Their Betty Blue Blu also has some issues, including some kind of awful filtering that makes it look like motion smoothing is on.

Exactly what I’m referring to. The Betty Blue disc wasn’t great but Moon is in even worse shape. Could really stand to use a Criterion overhaul.

so, since it's approved by J.J Beneix, it's only the "extended cut" ?

from what I can remember, the "extended cut" was not shown in theatres after several years. It was only available on VHS.

I tend to prefer the extended cut... But for all those people who fell in love with Béatrice Dalle and this movie this is the theatrical cut they had seen.

I had buy the UK Blu-Ray which is pretty good in terms of picture quality (I hope that Criterion will do better) and has the 2 cuts. But I have to admit, that since I had the choice I ut the extended cut (refresh my mind please, the theatrical cut was perhaps not restored for blu-ray and only put on this UK release as a DVD ???)

The two-hour cut of the film is available to watch on the Criterion Channel.

I have just realised that now we can all do a Criterion double bill of Betty Blue and In The Realm of the Senses, which complement each other quite nicely!

Watched the two hour cut on the channel, probably won’t watch the three hour. Sort of wanted to dislike it at times, but the marvelous sense of color and visual design combined with the excellent performances and occasional superb humor (the foldaway bed) made the whole thing moderately enjoyable even though it’s at times very draggy and weakly paced.

Having now seen it, that cover art is seriously underwhelming.

I watched the 3+ hour version and I was willing to give the film a lot of rope because it was reasonably entertaining for the first two hours or so, but a meandering film like this can't sustain a long running time and the last hour is one of slow realization that the filmmaker has nothing else to say but wants to keep on going. Easy to see why this was categorized with Besson's very thematically similar Subway, given that both are transparently youth-centered films all about Individuality and Being A Kooky Original At All Costs (which mostly just looks like being an asshole to everyone). I found this film's cavalier attitude about Dalle's obvious mental illness rather troubling, and neither the protagonist nor the film seems to consider it as more than at a fetishization level. Even when the plot makes it clear how unwell Dalle is, what with all the kidnapping and self-mutilation and whatnot, the characters and film still romanticize her, even going so far as to lift one of the most famous endings of all time in a rather unearned gesture towards riding the coattails of another counter-cultural artifact.

domino harvey wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:16 am I watched the 3+ hour version and I was willing to give the film a lot of rope because it was reasonably entertaining for the first two hours or so, but a meandering film like this can't sustain a long running time and the last hour is one of slow realization that the filmmaker has nothing else to say but wants to keep on going. Easy to see why this was categorized with Besson's very thematically similar Subway, given that both are transparently youth-centered films all about Individuality and Being A Kooky Original At All Costs (which mostly just looks like being an asshole to everyone). I found this film's cavalier attitude about Dalle's obvious mental illness rather troubling, and neither the protagonist nor the film seems to consider it as more than at a fetishization level. Even when the plot makes it clear how unwell Dalle is, what with all the kidnapping and self-mutilation and whatnot, the characters and film still romanticize her, even going so far as to lift one of the most famous endings of all time in a rather unearned gesture towards riding the coattails of another counter-cultural artifact.

Which other famous ending are you referring to?

.../...

DRW.mov wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:36 am

domino harvey wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:16 am I watched the 3+ hour version and I was willing to give the film a lot of rope because it was reasonably entertaining for the first two hours or so, but a meandering film like this can't sustain a long running time and the last hour is one of slow realization that the filmmaker has nothing else to say but wants to keep on going. Easy to see why this was categorized with Besson's very thematically similar Subway, given that both are transparently youth-centered films all about Individuality and Being A Kooky Original At All Costs (which mostly just looks like being an asshole to everyone). I found this film's cavalier attitude about Dalle's obvious mental illness rather troubling, and neither the protagonist nor the film seems to consider it as more than at a fetishization level. Even when the plot makes it clear how unwell Dalle is, what with all the kidnapping and self-mutilation and whatnot, the characters and film still romanticize her, even going so far as to lift one of the most famous endings of all time in a rather unearned gesture towards riding the coattails of another counter-cultural artifact.

Which other famous ending are you referring to?

I'm going to spoiler tag it as it will ruin the end of Betty for any who have not seen it. I'm pretty sure Dom is referring to:

Spoiler

One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

domino harvey wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:16 am I watched the 3+ hour version and I was willing to give the film a lot of rope because it was reasonably entertaining for the first two hours or so, but a meandering film like this can't sustain a long running time and the last hour is one of slow realization that the filmmaker has nothing else to say but wants to keep on going. Easy to see why this was categorized with Besson's very thematically similar Subway, given that both are transparently youth-centered films all about Individuality and Being A Kooky Original At All Costs (which mostly just looks like being an asshole to everyone). I found this film's cavalier attitude about Dalle's obvious mental illness rather troubling, and neither the protagonist nor the film seems to consider it as more than at a fetishization level. Even when the plot makes it clear how unwell Dalle is, what with all the kidnapping and self-mutilation and whatnot, the characters and film still romanticize her, even going so far as to lift one of the most famous endings of all time in a rather unearned gesture towards riding the coattails of another counter-cultural artifact.

Everyone who worked on this film should thank you for being so charitable to this narcissistic garbage. The film is so offensive beyond just the depiction of mental health, reducing a person, significantly a woman, to a distanced male-centric two-dimensional figure, entirely diluted in what the camera shows us to sex appeal and “crazy” mental health symptoms. Popsicle sucking, junk grabbing, flirting seven thousand ways to Sunday, spontaneous violence and self-harm with no apparent trigger from our victimized “hero” (who couldn’t possibly be at fault for staying in the relationship, no he isn’t even a slightly responsibility participant in his situation, and the film has to force the character into extremely immoral and uncharacteristic situations to issue him with blame- as if there aren’t more authentic ways to do this within the context of the relationship already established), and when we actually get her spouting some feminist advocacy it comes off simplified and tossed to the side as complaining that she doesn’t just want sex, as if to label her a hypocritical nuisance and close the door on any chance she had to share her perspective, though that would warrant a character to exist in the first place.

The fact that the film itself fetishizes her and robs her of any worth or agency enables the characters who do so within the film to get off the hook and even be validated with a nudge. How does one make a film over three hours long and keep all characters underdeveloped? That stagnation has to be harder than actually allowing them to grow naturally! What a sick, sick film. I can’t even get into the mental health portrait or else I’ll somersault into a rabbit hole of anger, but it’s safe to say that if you struggle with mental health issues and are offended when people go back to the Stone Age and utilize the ‘moral model’ to condescend your worth and equal status, avoid this at all costs. I’ve had plenty of long-term, even arguably traumatic, relationships with women who have similar profiles, diagnostics and behavior, but I would never claim that the person had as little worth as this one seems to, skewing them into an alien categorization that’s less than human, while promoting my own innocence (not to mention issuing any romantic partner a sealed fate as a capable objective judge, reducing their agency to that of an insentient object, a fitting cap to this story and one that’s sadly in step with its themes. He even gropes her while she’s unconscious, talking about their sexual future as their last “dramatically tragic” interaction. You can’t make this shit up). This is one of the most anti-humanist, sexist, condescending and irresponsible films I’ve ever seen. This film doesn’t believe in rehabilitation or change from mental health crises, at least not for women. This film becomes the position of toxic masculinity. Criterion feels comfortable announcing this but The House That Jack Built is too risky? Did they even watch the movie? What a time to be alive. I don’t believe in artistic censorship, but I’d make a deal with the devil to buy 500 copies of Border Radio to wipe this piece of “art” off the face of the earth.

It's okay because we see his penis a lot

Stumbled upon Ebert’s review, and felt this part was particularly astute:

Have you ever had the experience of going to a movie and trying to make sense of the plot, and trying to figure out why anyone has wasted his life and money on the project, only to suddenly have a dazzling insight? That's what happened to me during "Betty Blue." Reviews have been written debating the movie's view of madness, of feminism, of the travail of the artist. They all miss the point. "Betty Blue" is a movie about Beatrice Dalle's boobs and behind, and everything else is just what happens in between the scenes where she displays them.

Need to watch this now.

Well that ebert excerpt is pretty on point

This was certainly a pleasant surprise - I loved Diva when it came out and have seen it many times, but had never gotten around to Betty Blue. I loved the film - and while it was certainly long, I wouldn't have cut a minute of it. Great release!

DRW.mov wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:11 pm The real question is if Criterion is going to resurrect Moon in the Gutter from obscurity as well? (Same rights holder as BB, and in desperate need of a new restoration/transfer/critical reappraisal)

And while adding more time to Betty Blue likely only exacerbated its problems, it's a toss-up how the extra footage from Moon in the Gutter, reportedly destroyed by its studio, would affect its issues or strengths. Though part of the patchy way the narrative and character movements are stitched together here complements the surrender-to-style ethos Beineix is serenading and challenging us with alike. The first half is a brilliant wielding of aesthetics, with intentionality under a disinhibited intoxication of self-indulgence. This messy section is establishing everything - even its principals and their situations - as pulsating with 'possibility', mystery not in accrued content but the emotional potential behind the vehicles when interacting with the kinetic atmosphere and one another. Beineix produces visually lyrical touches on the minute details of performance in the cracks of a standard narrative - the elisions of narrative and character filler fragment the structure into elliptical poetry. And then.. the last act comes, melodramatic contrivances are introduced and followed through to ends, while unfortunately not supported by the evolving, stimulating stylistic aura we'd both hope for and expect by this point. But there's apparently at least an hour, maybe two or more, of other material - and I don't know if the remaining contents would give layers of substance to invest into in the first section, or soften the impact of the aesthetic against the plot. Could the latter half be improved upon by more breathing room, allowing for complementary symbiosis of style and narrative rather than a distraction from the other?

Either way, as the film stands, it's an enthralling mess. I really loved this first half, which in isolation may be the most visually arrested I've been by style, a huge leap forward from Diva (which is a better film, but not in every way). The latter half had some moments - similarly surreal, dreamlike moments unprompted by context, seemingly sewn together to create a mood and for no other narrative purpose; but otherwise was too jam-packed with story elements to really work in the end. But that early series of promises the film makes its audience - of a rainbow of tones and themes, just from the look, that fatalistically cannot live up to its fantasies and ideas (a reflexive theme of the film as well, filled with obsessive characters projected from other film genres and movements) - is sublime.

If the visuals of Moon in the Gutter entranced you, then Roselynne and the Lions is a must. There is a floating shot of a camera traversing across the interior of a circus tent that is among the most breathtaking spectacles I’ve ever encountered in a film.