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Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:03 am
by knives
That really doesn't sound like enough to work a feature around nor is it deep to say torturing people may be wrong.
Edit: I'm working off of what you're saying.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:04 am
by domino harvey
Image
Hey guys, let's all take a deep breath and stare at my "hair"

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:06 am
by mfunk9786
Okay: So we're settled:

I'm wrong for liking this film, and therefore, no one else should like this film and in an effort to make sure of it, they should have it spoiled for them by forum moderators in an effort to make sure they never watch it. Got it.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:08 am
by domino harvey
Image
I said stare at the "hair"

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:09 am
by knives
The hair I stare.
Image

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:11 am
by mfunk9786
Image

I just don't see what purpose it serves to undermine...

*stares*

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:28 am
by Mr Sausage
mfunk9786 wrote:Okay: So we're settled:

I'm wrong for liking this film, and therefore, no one else should like this film and in an effort to make sure of it, they should have it spoiled for them by forum moderators in an effort to make sure they never watch it. Got it.
The fact that you think the reason I'm not using spoiler tags has anything to do with you, personally, is hilariously self-involved. That you also think I ought to help you shepherd other people's viewing experiences of a movie I think is immoral is strange. There is no logical reason for me to do that.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:31 am
by mfunk9786
You think a movie that isn't a snuff film or a work of forced and/or child pornography is immoral? Who's wrong here?

Anyway, I don't think anyone ought to help me shepherd anyone's viewing experience, but I think you owe any legitimate film enough respect (as you paid it in your first post about it) to express your dislike without out-and-out spoiling it. I was not implying that you went on to spoiling it because of me, but I'm sure my post trying to defend it didn't help when you decided to say "eh, fuck it" and just rail against a film that you, the arbiter of all that is good and decent, have decided isn't worth anyone's time or effort or resignation of the moral fortitude that you feel they should have.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:35 am
by knives
No one of us who (or at least myself) have not seen it aren't going to continue to not see it for a plot point, but rather the moral one outlined. If you were to launch a sturdier defense than the film makers agree it's wrong than I'd be more willing to watch the film. To be honest even before Sausage's post I had no interest in seeing the movie so it's more a case where you'd have to convince me anyway. That's something you haven't really done well yet. I'm sure there is a defense you could pose for the film if you gave it a good effort so why not do that instead of throwing your hands in the air.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:36 am
by LQ
Look, the sounds of furious computer keyboard clacking have woken me up and I'm on my phone now, which is never a good idea, to say that I got something out of it that semi-justified the experience and if you will look to the film's thread, other, more eloquent members did too. Your reaction to it is perfectly rational, acceptable, but c'mon, at least be willing to entertain the idea that at least one other person in this project might find something in it too, and might, just might, want to go in with it unspoiled.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:43 am
by mfunk9786
Just like it isn't Mr Sausage's job to make sure you don't watch the film, it's not my job to make sure you do if it's not something that's of interest to you or your sensibilities. I truly feel that it's one of those rare films that works more effectively on the psyche of the viewer if they go into it as clean as possible from reading spoiler-y interpretations of why it's either fantastic or worthless, and I guess I was lucky to have gone into it without knowing a thing about it. But if you feel it's in your best interest to avoid it, don't watch it! As my wife found out, she felt she was glad she'd personally overcome any reservations she had about it and brought it up to me as something she wanted to watch, and when it was over she found it worthwhile. Would knives, or domino harvey? Maybe not - maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree - but I don't know what makes my vague but strong recommendation or Mr Sausage's spoiler-y but strong warning any different from one another aside from one's irresponsibility when presenting the film to the potential viewer - though I guess Sausage could reply with some kind of high and mighty moral claims that he's making sure that the immorality of this film doesn't spread or something absurd like that. I don't know that we should be spoiling films for people who haven't seen them yet, especially once we've seen them and hold all the cards in the conversation, but that's just me.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:47 am
by Mr Sausage
mfunk9786 wrote:You think a movie that isn't a snuff film or a work of forced and/or child pornography is immoral? Who's wrong here?
Not me, mostly especially if you're going to maintain that only real murder and child rape is immoral filmmaking. Jesus Christ.
mfunk9786 wrote:but I think you owe any legitimate film enough respect (as you paid it in your first film about it) to express your dislike without out-and-out spoiling it.
I don't owe any film respect. Not one. A film has to earn my respect. And I certainly don't agree that this movie is legitimate.
mfunk9786 wrote:I was not implying that you went on to spoiling it because of me,
You outright stated it:
mfunk9786 wrote:I'm wrong for liking this film, and therefore, no one else should like this film and in an effort to make sure of it, they should have it spoiled for them by forum moderators in an effort to make sure they never watch it.
The phrase "and therefore" means one follows from the other! That means every single stated conclusion in the above is the result of the premise "I'm wrong for liking this film." Not arguable. This is what you are saying.
mfunk9786 wrote:just rail against a film that you, the arbiter of all that is good and decent, have decided isn't worth anyone's time or effort or resignation of the moral fortitude that you feel they should have.
In the space of a sentence we get: a petty, self-serving jeer (one of a few you've sent my way today), and a claim to know what I feel about other people's moral fortitude, which you don't know and should not claim to know and which comes across as insecure.

Now, instead of responding to any of my actual arguments, you've made this a ad-hominem discussion of me personally. Not exactly good form.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:49 am
by knives
What did he spoil by the way? I've read his comments twice and all that he reveals, the the film features a lot of torture and that it ends in a typical slasher ending, can be inferred by genre alone. He didn't reveal any plot points as far as I can tell.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:55 am
by matrixschmatrix
From reading the Scott Tobias article, it sounds as though
Spoiler
The whole plot with the death cult and the metaphysical questions that plot raises or attempts to raise doesn't happen until fully an hour into the movie, after essentially an entire rounded plot has already transpired. It sounds as though it's meant to be something of a surprise.
Also, as someone who has never given a damn about spoilers one way or the other, I've always been under the impression that it was a courtesy to spoiler sensitive information, regardless of what the movie in question was actually like- it's not as though that means not posting it at all, it just means that people have the option not to read it without entirely losing the flow of the conversation.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:56 am
by mfunk9786
There are philosophical elements to the film that are best left for the slow-reveal that it goes to great lengths to preserve. What I took issue with is that if Sausage liked the film, he would have had plenty of interest in at least tagging those thoughts properly, but since he personally dislikes this film, it's not worthy of his effort to that end, which is how he explained it to me. But whatever, I'm done with this list project before I've gotten a chance to begin - what's the use if even moderators are going to decide to treat other people's contributions with such brash disrespect?

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:06 am
by Mr Sausage
mfunk9786 wrote:There are philosophical elements to the film that are best left for the slow-reveal that it goes to great lengths to preserve. What I took issue with is that if Sausage liked the film, he would have had plenty of interest in at least tagging those thoughts properly, but since he personally dislikes this film, it's not worthy of his effort to that end, which is how he explained it to me. But whatever, I'm done with this list project before I've gotten a chance to begin - what's the use if even moderators are going to decide to treat other people's choices with such brash disrespect?
If it will ensure your continued participation in this thread, then I will go back and warn for spoilers. If you got the impression I was willfully spoiling the film out of misplaced outrage, my apologies. It was apathy, not conscious malice. I still don't think anything I've said is much of a spoiler, but nevertheless, I don't want to give any impression of being personally vindictive towards you for liking it, so consider it altered.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:00 am
by YnEoS
I'll throw in my 2 cents on Martyrs, I saw it a few years ago, and I usually don't like sharing my older opinions since I'm still new-ish (4-5 years) to film viewing outside normal stuff, and still forming my opinions and aesthetic tastes. But since there seems to be a deficit of opinions here and a lot of people are trying to figure out if they should bother or not, I'll throw mine out there in case if it's of any help.

The beginning of the film I found to be quite good, I was actually really interested in the story and expected the film to be a new favorite. The middle torture section, the plot halted and it was down to the usual torture stuff of how extreme a movie can get. I admit I had a visceral reaction to it, whereas most movies I don't feel a thing, but there wasn't anything new or interesting being said with the torture for tortures sake. The philosophical aspect of the ending, also feel flat for me, and I didn't see much in it. Overall, while I liked aspects of the movie I was not too happy about the torture scenes and the ending killed it for me. It's perhaps slightly above a lot of the trash floating around in this genre, but I didn't find it to be a great film. I've always thought film that deal more with emotional torment than physical torment seem to disturb me more and give me more to think about.

Now I'm certainly guilty of liking plenty of films that are gratuitously violent, but I've come to favor the ones that are more fun/ridiculous and don't take themselves so seriously. Torture films had a short appeal of shock value, but eventually I grew tired of them.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:14 am
by mfunk9786
Here's where I break off from that assessment of the structure of the film - I didn't find the middle section to be anything for anything's sake - it quite literally laid out the philosophy of the film's 'villains' that was already revealed during the film's only sequence of substantial dialogue.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:22 am
by YnEoS
True, I had forgotten that it was discussed before the torture scenes as well. The ending of the film I guess stuck out more in my mind, so I associated it with that portion. Though my overall reaction remains the same.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:25 am
by Mr Sausage
For what it's worth, I don't think I'd actually call Martyrs torture porn, since it is plainly obvious we are not meant to enjoy any of it. My problem is that I think the film is trying to hide its base impulse--to torture its audience in a crude way--by pretending to have a noble one. But its ideas are so paper thin, so banal, and are just dropped in without even the pretense of exploring them, that I cannot credit it with anything except subterfuge. The imbalance is enormous: the ideas that are supposed to justify the movie are taken completely for granted, but the awfulness of the torture is treated as tho' no one were figuring out that it was awful.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:38 pm
by colinr0380
I want to thank mfunk for putting up a spirited defence of the film. I don't really have much to add other than this seems a lot like the discussion on In A Glass Cage a few years ago, a film which david hare hated. I liked Martyrs for similar reasons of liking In A Glass Cage - it is a film taking issues of power over other people to (il)logical extremes. Martyrs starts specific, kind of in the Mum & Dad/The Woman subgenre of the twisted family home, with an individual family having abused a foster child who takes revenge years later. Then from the 'conclusion' of this section the film steadily grows to suggest a wider network of the abusive cult, intertwining the specific abusers within their community. It is about people using others without any consideration whatsoever to their essential humanity, or in the belief that the sacrifice they are making is an essential one.

I can't really argue against someone's opinion - if someone didn't get anything of value out of an experience that felt like it turned into an endurance test, then of course it was not a worthwhile thing for them to have done. Though that is one of the main themes of the film.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:47 pm
by Mr Sausage
colinr0380 wrote:It is about people using others without any consideration whatsoever to their essential humanity, or in the belief that the sacrifice they are making is an essential one. [...] Though that is one of the main themes of the film.
Martyrs is a kind of cheat, tho', in that it allows you to pick and choose a thematic line that's most palatable to you. Here is what it actually does:

Martyrs wishes its viewer to hold in their mind two contradictory ideas simultaneously. This is how its ambiguity is actually working.
Spoiler
It presents, first, that torture and suffering is unjustifiable and the result of perverted power structures. It simultaneously forces you to consider that, while torture is bad, there may in fact be a justification large enough to elide it, and to consider what it means if there is. This latter bit is something along the lines of a thought experiment where you attempt to consider whether or not there is a context in which a bad thing can become a good one. Except that that latter bit, as presented by the movie, is not a real idea, it is a disgusting one propped up on a flimsy, inchoate shell of poorly thought out metaphysics. The religious/spiritual element is actually so close to genuine beliefs in the sanctity of bodily suffering, the worship of torture, that for this movie to be unequivocally against it, there must be no ambiguity. But that is not what the film does: when Anna experiences her epiphanies, they are exclusively for the witness of the audience. The voices, the track into her eye showing that old cliche of 'the light,' those are not witnessed or imagined by the cult. They are for us, us only, and they exist solely to muddy clear moral judgements and force us to consider that the sanctity of torture may, in fact, be right after all. The movie plies us with this line of reasoning before ending without having said if it was worth considering or not.

So, what must the viewer do when a film presents something as bad while simultaneously planting the idea that there is a context in which it must be part of the ultimate good? Examine whether it has earned either sentiment. It has not. This is a very crude movie whose ideas are summed up in two very basic, very unenlightening, very unphilosophical dialogue scenes that go nowhere towards justifying either of its ideas. We have watched horrific suffering for two reason: to consider whether or not it is bad, and to consider whether or not it is good. No points for believing the former, that is simply being decently human; no points for believing the latter, that is despicable. No points either if the purpose is to indict the audience for entertaining ideas the movie, itself, is making them entertain, that is failure of argument.

Moreover, Martyrs' technique in the torture sections is cool and removed; it stands impassively, depicting, but making no judgements. And here is the moral problem: it relies entirely on the morality the audience brings with it, while at the same time trying to undermine that morality by planting an idea contrary to the one the audience is likely to bring, ie. that torture is not saintly.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:00 pm
by colinr0380
Spoiler
True, though I'm not sure that the quest for enlightenment is anything more than a MacGuffin for the real concerns of the film - the film suggests that the afterlife may exist but that cult are doing the wrong thing by trying to hurry the process and get there by proxy. Which is why the ending can be seen as ironic - how can you force somebody to experience something on your behalf when you quite literally do not feel their pain?

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:27 pm
by zedz
Hey, I was just paraphrasing what you said. If that isn't what you meant, you should explain.

Or does "the idea behind Martyrs is
Spoiler
that the work done by these sick people is nightmarish and wrong regardless of what the result of their efforts are?"
somehow not equal "the Big Idea is
Spoiler
torturing and killing people is WRONG?"
I haven't seen the film, but I've read plenty about it and nothing I've read suggests that it's more than what Sausage has described, which places it approximately 500,000th on my to-watch list. This is your big chance to improve that placing.

Re: The Horror List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Projec

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:13 pm
by LQ
Mr Sausage wrote:My spotlights:
Night of the Eagle (Sidney Hayers, 1962):
I really enjoyed this, especially the fantastic ending set-piece.
Spoiler
As a huge bird-lover, I was hoping that the constantly-panned-to statue would come to life, and the film did not disappoint!
Great camp touches book-ending the film, too. I recognized Peter Wyngarde from his burning leer in The Innocents, my favorite horror film, and found him to be very effective in his academic roll here. Just prickish enough.

Speaking of The Innocents, I'd make it my spotlight but I have a feeling that most if not all of the participants here have already seen (and love) it. There's a short on the BFI release also directed by Clayton called The Bespoke Overcoat, which I'd love to spotlight because it is so tremendously moving, warm, funny, and well, perfect in every way, but I'm not even sure if I can bring myself to rope it into the "Horror" list. There's a (modestly) vengeful ghost involved, but its pretty far removed from any trappings of the genre.

Instead, I'll go with Seance on a Wet Afternoon, available on Hulu Plus. The brilliant Kim Stanley is an imperious, deluded quack of a medium who convinces her poor milquetoast husband, played by Richard Attenborough, to help her in a kidnapping plot so she can then graciously offer her services to the distraught parents, divine the location of the child, and finally prove her illustrious “gift” to the world. The story is engrossing and chills more and more as it unfolds, the direction is assured and understated, its score & cinematography atmospheric and disquieting… and the performances are frighteningly great.