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Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:47 pm
by Yojimbo
domino harvey wrote:I would say Five Against the House is the worst noir I've ever seen, except of course it's not even a noir. So I guess it's the worst film labeled as noir I've ever seen. Sitcom characters spouting hammy quips coupled with a thoroughly unengaging narrative and a heist caper so silly it would be rejected from Saturday morning cartoons make for one horrible experience. Add Novak into the mix and you've got a film that just needs to be punched.
Definitely won't make my list!

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:06 pm
by Murdoch
I had the misfortune of seeing Bury Me Dead which, despite its great noir title, had some of the most stilted performances and worst direction I've seen. It's amazing just how bad Vorhaus is behind the camera when he doesn't have Alton's lens to guide him, and what worked oddly well in The Amazing Mr. X falls terribly flat here. It was really Cathy O'Donnell that brought to this one, but she she doesn't fare well either and the leading duo of June Lockhart and Hugh Beaumont had me heading for the eject button. But I stuck it out, only to witness Mark Daniels spout gee-whiz lines and a mix of comedy and mystery so poorly conceived it's as if the writers crammed two mediocre scripts together in hopes it would get by on quirk. I haven't seen Five Against the House so I can't say which is worse, but stay far away from this one.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:39 pm
by Yojimbo
Murdoch wrote:I had the misfortune of seeing Bury Me Dead which, despite its great noir title, had some of the most stilted performances and worst direction I've seen. It's amazing just how bad Vorhaus is behind the camera when he doesn't have Alton's lens to guide him, and what worked oddly well in The Amazing Mr. X falls terribly flat here. It was really Cathy O'Donnell that brought to this one, but she she doesn't fare well either and the leading duo of June Lockhart and Hugh Beaumont had me heading for the eject button. But I stuck it out, only to witness Mark Daniels spout gee-whiz lines and a mix of comedy and mystery so poorly conceived it's as if the writers crammed two mediocre scripts together in hopes it would get by on quirk. I haven't seen Five Against the House so I can't say which is worse, but stay far away from this one.
comedy never works with noir; even (the original) DOA is almost scuppered by the 'playful' music that starts up every time Edmond O'Brien's character catches sight of a passing cutie

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:57 pm
by knives
Comedy can work with noirs, it just has to be a very special sort of comedy. Irony and sarcasm drip through most of these films anyways so seeing alcoholic Bogart driving his agent insane works perfectly fine, for example. I think it's more the purely comedic element that should be missing from noir. Any character just sitting there as comic relief will wind up killing the film, but characters making devilish jokes might even improve or heighten the tension of the film.

Also nothing tops 5 Against the House (and this is coming from a Karlson fan)

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:39 pm
by Yojimbo
knives wrote:Comedy can work with noirs, it just has to be a very special sort of comedy. Irony and sarcasm drip through most of these films anyways so seeing alcoholic Bogart driving his agent insane works perfectly fine, for example.
Are you referring to 'In A Lonely Place', here?
If so you have to distinguish between occasional wisecracks and a comic, or semi-comic tone to a movie, which latter is what I was referring to

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:47 pm
by domino harvey
Comedy can work in a noir-- Terry Moore's hilarious good girl qt in Two of a Kind is the perfect example-- but to me the problem arises when all the characters are given sitcomy pastiches of dialog to recite, as in Five Against the House. One comic relief character vs all comic relief characters is a big difference. And also, never did I see Alvy Moore in a film and think: "Dude should be in noirs!" (or "Dude should be in any film!")

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:32 pm
by Yojimbo
domino harvey wrote:Comedy can work in a noir-- Terry Moore's hilarious good girl qt in Two of a Kind is the perfect example-- but to me the problem arises when all the characters are given sitcomy pastiches of dialog to recite, as in Five Against the House. One comic relief character vs all comic relief characters is a big difference. And also, never did I see Alvy Moore in a film and think: "Dude should be in noirs!" (or "Dude should be in any film!")
Alvy Moore was tailor-made for Sgt Bilko (the original tv series)

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:36 pm
by Murdoch
Noir's comedy often comes from the dialogue not the situation - excluding the heavy irony that all noir plots are coated in - so whenever one inserts some scene that's played for laughs it contrasts poorly with the genre's dark overtones. You can have a character who provides relief from the murder and mayhem and contrasts with the doom-and-gloom of the main characters - which is actually a minor staple of noir - but pulling comedy in the traditional ha-ha sense out of noir is rare, largely because if a film does it successfully it's no longer considered noir since it's too upbeat!

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:44 pm
by domino harvey
Yojimbo wrote:
domino harvey wrote:Comedy can work in a noir-- Terry Moore's hilarious good girl qt in Two of a Kind is the perfect example-- but to me the problem arises when all the characters are given sitcomy pastiches of dialog to recite, as in Five Against the House. One comic relief character vs all comic relief characters is a big difference. And also, never did I see Alvy Moore in a film and think: "Dude should be in noirs!" (or "Dude should be in any film!")
Alvy Moore was tailor-made for Sgt Bilko (the original tv series)
I mean, he's funny in Susan Slept Here, but anyone would have been

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:26 am
by Murdoch
Murder, My Sweet - I had bought the first Warner noir box a while ago and watched all the titles in it when I first got it except this one for some reason or another. I was surprised to find that it's my favorite of the bunch. It's done in a similar vein to The Big Sleep or to a lesser extent Maltese Falcon since it balances the convoluted story with a witty lead and fluctuates between a dark and light tone. But while Bogart in those two had some degree of competency, Powell's Marlowe feels more genuine to me as a dope who stumbled into a murder plot. The visuals were a brilliant splash of the surreal - especially Powell being pursued by a doctor with the two seemingly suspended in darkness as they move from one door to another, there's also the splendid effect of having the frame slowly flood with darkness as Marlowe passes out. The ending of having Powell remove a gun from his jacket before planting one on Shirley is a great example of the humor of noir being used effectively, not especially subtle but an enjoyable cap to the film nonetheless.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:35 am
by Yojimbo
Murdoch wrote:Murder, My Sweet - I had bought the first Warner noir box a while ago and watched all the titles in it when I first got it except this one for some reason or another. I was surprised to find that it's my favorite of the bunch. It's done in a similar vein to The Big Sleep or to a lesser extent Maltese Falcon since it balances the convoluted story with a witty lead and fluctuates between a dark and light tone. But while Bogart in those two had some degree of competency, Powell's Marlowe feels more genuine to me as a dope who stumbled into a murder plot. The visuals were a brilliant splash of the surreal - especially Powell being pursued by a doctor with the two seemingly suspended in darkness as they move from one door to another, there's also the splendid effect of having the frame slowly flood with darkness as Marlowe passes out. The ending of having Powell remove a gun from his jacket before planting one on Shirley is a great example of the humor of noir being used effectively, not especially subtle but an enjoyable cap to the film nonetheless.
It must be close on 20 years since I last watched this one, and I must try and fit in a re-watch before finalising my list, as I've been especially impressed by the Dmytrk films I've watched since this project was announced.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:14 am
by Cold Bishop
I really like Murder, My Sweet as well, and was surprised, looking at the archives, to find it wasn't well liked here. The Maltese Falcon may have beat it by a few years, but Murder, My Sweet is the first detective film to look like a film noir. It even beats The Big Sleep in that department. It becomes clear from the opening interrogation, with its blinding lights surrounded by black nothingness, and continues from there. Moose conjuring himself from a neon sign reflecting off a window. The silhouette of Marlow's window lettering grafting itself on Lindsay. The haunting starkness of the nighttime drive, looking forward to Detour and Kiss Me Deadly. While Bogart captured the cynical integrity of Marlowe, Gould (my favorite) captured the sheer befuddlement of the character, Powell really captures the sordidness. He really seems like he's willing to do anything for a buck, and you can practically feel his lips smack when Lindsay makes his offer. I thing like most of the adaptations, it suffers from gutting the film of its political aspect (the novel deals strongly with police corruption), but its still very entertaining. If the films has a problem, it doesn't quite live up to its two peak moments: the quiet melancholy of the early scenes, with Moose looking for Velma, finding the bar's completely changed, the broken bar sign becoming a genuinely moving symbol for the ravishes of time. And of course, the sheer helpless terror of the insane asylum and its nightmare sequence, which is up their with Stranger on the Third Floor.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:51 am
by Cold Bishop
Anyone else feel like an extension? I always considered the conversation around the list more important than the list themselves, and the conversation here has kind of slowed down, so maybe it'll help rekindle enthusiasm (although it could easily help reduce it by prolonging it), and there are certainly always more films to be viewed, and write-ups to be done... Just throwing it out there.

---------------------------------------
Less a piece of criticism, more an appreciation. Despite the length, there are only minor spoilers, some regarding the end, but nothing that would destroy a viewing, so feel free to read. With that said, if you haven't seen this film yet, you have no excuse...

In a Lonely Place (Nicholas Ray, 1950)

Perhaps the most personal of all film noirs, In a Lonely Place is a film I always found difficult to approach. It’s both a monumental entree in the genre, yet a film that is so easy to underestimate, even while watching it. While one can try to write objectively about the film on a thematic level – Ray’s masterful use of space, its subversive edge, its autobiographical parallels – that only scratches the surface. The true power of Ray’s film comes on that most intangible and subject level, that of feeling and emotion. It’s the film’s wounded intimacy and emotional vulnerability, its doomed romanticism, its ability to capture the solitude and insecurity that drives people together, and the way its turns around and pulls them apart: it is this which gives the film its power. Perhaps the best description of this quality I can give comes not from film criticism, but from music. From Nick Cave’s lecture, “The Secret of the Love Song”:
Nick Cave wrote:“The love song is never truly happy. It must first embrace the potential for pain. Those songs that speak of love without having within in their lines an ache or a sigh are not love songs at all but rather Hate Songs disguised as love songs, and are not to be trusted. These songs deny us our humanness and our God-given right to be sad and the air-waves are littered with them. The love song must resonate with the susurration of sorrow, the tintinnabulation of grief. The writer who refuses to explore the darker regions of the heart will never be able to write convincingly about the wonder, the magic and the joy of love for just as goodness cannot be trusted unless it has breathed the same air as evil… so within the fabric of the love song, within its melody, its lyric, one must sense an acknowledgment of its capacity for suffering.”
The film excels as an examination of love because its ability to balance both the joy and sorrow of love. Many romantic films have moments of bliss and heartache, but they are parceled off, treated as two distinct states, or worse, used the same way danger is used in a suspense film, to hold the viewer capture until the grand reunion in the end. Or tinged in nostalgia, mementos of happiness after the downbeat ending of a breakup. Here, they are not distinct; the moments of joy hint at sorrow, the moments of sorrow contain a spark of joy, and the film largely exists between the two emotions, in a world of doubt and longing.

A difficulty in assessing the film is its inability to be pigeonholed within the familiarity of classical genre. It’s certainly a romantic melodrama, but with a level of trauma and ambiguity rare for the classical melodrama. The film contains a murder mystery, but is a secondary element, almost a MacGuffin, allowing Bogart and Grahame to meet. And while it definitely informs the film, it only shades the human drama at its center, it doesn’t drive it. It is not the study of a pathologically sick mind, the ways its source novel was (Nick Ray changes it so completely, one wonders whether he didn’t have his own hatcheck girl read it for him). Film noir is all about crime, but here, the crimes aren’t legal or moral transgressions; they’re personal dilemmas, far too intimate for any definition of criminality. The films doubles as a Hollywood screed, and look at the way the film industry marginalizes and discards those around it; but it’s a minor element, kept in the background. It’s another of Ray’s study of the marginalized and dispossessed, the outcasts of Hollywood society, but the story never reaches the “us vs. them” dimensions of Johnny Guitar or Rebel Without a Cause, nor the subcultural submersion of Hot Blood or The Lusty Men. The film is fixated on the link between creativity and violence, the propensity for great artist to be less than upstanding private individuals, but that's not what it's really about. There is lastly the personal element, the Bogart-Grahame romance as a mirror to Ray’s own disintegrating marriage; a genuine sense of sorrow and anger pervades the film. One feels that if someone had given Ray a 16mm camera and free reign, he may have came out with a film as raw and searing as Faces or Nous ne vieillirons pas ensemble; but this is not the 60s or 70s. The film's craft and its difficulty is in how far it is able to maintain this unflinching examination of romantic breakdown within the confines of the studio style.

As such, the film could be called a non-thriller. The mystery at its center is neutered. It never becomes a “Bluebeard” story in the manner of Suspicion or The Stranger. There is no major goal driving the film. There are no moments of suspense or action. The closet the film comes is Bogart’s beating of the football star, a moment that is shocking for its randomness, the film’s protagonist lashing out at a character completely external to the plot. There is also the ending, but the film is careful to “solve” the mystery before it occurs, turning it into a moment of pure emotional trauma as opposed to suspense. It is actually a violent and very eventful film; it is simply that the violence is all internal, rarely external. The sling and arrows these characters quietly suffer are as powerful and felt as any fight scene or shootout in a regular noir; one must simply be willing to perceive them.

If the classical narrative consists of rising and falling levels of conflict, and if the typical romance alternates between the highs and lows of love, then the best visual one can give to their structure is a succession of hills, with tall peaks and low valleys. This film suggests a new approach altogether; In a Lonely Place is rather a long stretch of ocean, stretching as far as the eye can see, covering in incessant, criss-crossing, always-present waves. The waves are driven by different currents of emotion – love, hate, joy, sorrow, optimism, despair, humiliation, jealousy, rage, compassion, tenderness, intimacy – but they’re always there, simultaneous, amorphous, all part of the same body of water. One emotion may gain in intensity, but it can’t eliminate the others. Sometimes it whips into a torrent, other times it is present in ripples, but it always flowing, changing, carrying the story, shaping the relationships between characters, and capturing the inner-conflicts of the characters themselves. Ray always had a world of empathy and compassion for his characters, and here is no different. Even minor characters aren’t allowed to be simple types; they are allowed an inner world as rich and complex as the film itself.

This appraoch. of conflicting emotions becomes apparent from the first love scene. To be sure, Bogart’s meeting Gloria Graham in her room is a moment of lovesickness, but it’s the rare moment that give as much weight to the sickness as it does to the love. Bogart confronts her, but already the dynamics are thrown off; Grahame is passive and quiet, Bogarts leads the conversation. Yet, it is Grahame who seems collected and calm, Bogart a nervous mess, ill-at-ease, fidgeting and stuttering. When he enters the room, he draws back until he is flat against the door and wall; for a moment, he looks like an animal trapped in a corner. Or a guilty man recoiling from some terrible thing he’s done, or in this case, something he may do later. His love manifests itself in intense emotion that seems to be physically agitating him from within. Grahame, on the other hand, doesn’t look like a woman who’s fallen head over heels in love. She isn’t carried away by emotion; she looks like a woman who has come to a rational decision after long deliberation. Even before she informs us that a butch ‘dyke’ masseuse is all she “has left of her acting career”, we sense this is a woman who’s fallen before, who’s been hurt in love before, but who has picked herself up wiser from the experience. This is a girl who knows love is a gamble, and won’t dash madly into it. Instead, she has thought long and hard about it, resigning herself to take the gamble again. Before they embrace, Ray places them in a two-shot – Grahame sitting, Bogart standing – that has Bogart towering over her with almost menacing proportion. The shot of Bogart even includes the ceiling, more claustrophobic than romantic. He descends on her, embraces her, kisses her. Bogart’s nervous agitation only becomes stronger, Grahame more passive and submissive, if not frightened. The camera moves in close, and it feels too intimate, as if we should feel guilty for peeking in on this private moment. This intimacy also belies a claustrophobic restriction of space. Bogart stooping over Grahame takes on an unsettling sense of “domination”. almost vampiric. He caresses her neck, but up close and in context, it echoes strangulation. George Antheil’s music already has a haunting quality to it, but when Bogart mentions the murder in passing, it quickly perks up into a foreboding melody, before reverting back. Bogart’s sweet-nothings don’t sound sweet at all; nervously muttered the way they are, they have a painful, uncertain, even unsettling quality. Here, at love’s very inception, Ray is already pointing towards its disintegration. Here, at its most new and blissful state, Ray is already hinting at its ability to cause suffering, even physical suffering.

I think it’s safe to say the Humphrey Bogart has never been better. Perhaps its not coincidental that he’s never looked worse. The bags under his eyes, the lines in his forehead, his boney-yet-hangdog cheeks – they’ve never been so pronounced. His face sometimes seems so tightly stretched around his face, it looks like a death mask. When it’s hit with low-key lighting, it sometimes has the property of a skull – a characteristic that speaks as much of naked vulnerability as it does malice. Under Ray’s deft hands, he captures his character’s dark-side brilliantly, and there are still some of the most believably rendered bursts of rage in all the cinema. Take the dinner scene near the end, where Bogart’s violently lashes out at his friend. It’s a frightening scene, as Bogart seems capable of murder at this point. But there’s more to it: he seems just as likely to break down and cry; not just a regular cry, but the sort of cry that comes from an infant, violent and seemingly capable of lasting forever. This balance is maintained throughout the film, Bogart is never just a total brute. Ray and Bogart understand the way rage is precipitated, accompanied and intensified by a sense of powerlessness and humiliation, and Dix Steel embodies it.

There’s also a magnetic quality too him. In this skid-row world of Hollywood has-beens and also-rans, Bogart’s Dix Steele has knack for attracting these outcast around him like satellites: Alix Talton’s Frances, who has suffered the full wrath of his anger, but can’t seem resist coming back as if nothing happened; Robert Warwick’s Charlie Wakeman, a former star-turned-drunk who’s drawn to Steele’s voluntary outcast status. Despite his hard luck, the studios still call after him to write their scripts. Even those on the outside are drawn in: Frank Lovejoy’s officer believes he’s innocent, but seems captivated by his violent creativity, as does his wife; his superior is so captivated by it, he stands convinced of his guilt. But the most crucial of these side characters is Art Smith’s Mel Lippman. This may be Bogart and Grahame’s romance, but Bogart and Lippman are the real abusive couple here. The ever-faithful Lippman looks after Bogart with a fatherly, or considering this is Ray, possibly homoerotic attachement, and yet Bogart responds by sabotaging his deals, mockingly torturing him, bullying him around, and ultimately attacking him. Yet Lippman always comes back, hurt yet loyal as ever. If one wants to emphasize the film’s parallels with Sunset Boulevard, Lippman is this film’s Von Stroheim, focused on protecting Bogart, unable to allow him “to be destroyed”; but he doesn’t have that character’s level of personal access and control. He’s a sad, pitiful but well-intentioned man who emerges as one of the film’s most touching and sympathetic characters.

With Bogart’s magnetic power, and the film’s emphasis on male anxiety, it’s easy to ignore just how great Gloria Grahame is in this film. Film noirs usually make the mistake of making a character like her so pure, innocent and glamorous as to be unbelievable in the middle of the genre’s sordidness – look at Alice Faye in Fallen Angel, which I wrote about last, or Coleen Gray in Kansas City Confidential (which I hope to write a bit about next). Gloria Grahame is a true “fallen angel”: she seems like a small glimmer of hope and beauty in this dark world, but she’s not uncompromised or unsullied by it. A failed actress walking out a trouble relationship, she seems like’s she’s picking herself up from the Hollywood underbelly that the other characters are still caught in, unable and unwilling to walk away from. Next time you watch the film, watch her eyes; that’s where all her acting is. Her rolling and dancing pupils, her fluttering lashes, her undulating eyebrows, her oscillating lids – she controls here eyes magnificently. It’s a subtle, economical means of expression that nevertheless captures complex, ever-changing emotions: exactly what the film requires.

And that ending… the saddest of all the genre. It’s a modern day Othello, but here there is no external Iago to lay all our hate on; this is all personal demons. And the prevention of the murder here only expands the film’s tragic dimensions. Bogart’s last minute awakening of conscience is not enough to redeem him or the relationship, and in fact forces him to face his own irreconcilable brutality. And it would be wrong to place the tragedy all at Dix Steele’s feet, as one feels that Grahame voicing her true feelings could have averted the tragedy. More than just a study of inner-rage and male anxiety, the film charts the way distrust, doubt, dishonesty and a breakdown in communication can wedge itself in a relationship, and here, exacerbated by the police, showbiz and murder, ultimately crumbles the romance from within. It also speaks to the finale’s painful complexity. Watching it, one feels angry at Gray for her fear and deception, as if she could have saved the relationship simply by being open. Then we see her, tears in her eyes, heartbroken as much as if she’s traumatized, and one recoils from that opinion, feeling guilty that you blamed the victim, and knowing that Steele’s brutality would have inevitably emerged later if not now. Then one wants to blame Steele for that brutality; but then one sees him, head down, back to the camera, and finds him a shameful, wounded creature who simply can’t understand, let alone control, his own capacity for violence. It’s not about right or wrong. We’re ultimately left with two damaged, tortured souls. Bogart, walking out of the hacienda apartments, but stuck at the exit, stranded, not knowing where to go. And where can he go? Leave Hollywood and his career? Retreat into his alcoholism? An inevitable violent outburst that does go too far? Suicide? Only one thing is certain, and that is loneliness: at the end, Steele realizes that his murderous desire for love can do nothing but sabotage and destroy, all his hopes dashed. And what about Gloria Grahame? She’s picked herself up once, and will probably pick herself up again… but can it ever be the same? "I was born when she kissed me. I died when she left me. I lived a few weeks while she loved me” – the ultimate epigram for the impossibility of love.

And that is the film’s subject – the impossibility of love, and the ways relationships inevitable unravel. It’s a subject that can easily fall prey to narcissistic self-loathing. Why watch a film with such a depressing message? They Live by Night may have been tragic, but one felt there that love was all that mattered in a mad world. This extends to films like Johnny Guitar, Rebel Without a Cause and Party Girl, where love prevails in the face of a monstrous, uncaring society. And what about On Dangerous Ground, which is almost acts as an answer to this film. Ryan is even more far-gone with violence and anxiety, Lupino is an even more tarnished angel, yet at the end, a glimmer of love’s healing powers still prevails, no matter how uncertain it is. But it’s perhaps not coincidental that these films ends just as the relationship begins, freed from external forces. In a Lonely Place is a film that follows a relationship from beginning to end. Perhaps all that separates a tragic and happy romance is knowing where to stop the film?

Ultimately, the film works because of its honesty and empathy regarding the subject. This is film noir as deeply personal confession. And just as the narrative navigates a relationship suspended between joy and sorrow, passion and rage, love and hate, so Ray’s vision navigate a cinema stranded between Hollywood populism and unflinching self-examination. It’s triumph is it’s ability to use the auspices of popular genre (romance, melodrama, film noir, showbiz satire) to examine an inescapable loneliness that exists there.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:01 pm
by domino harvey
I have no problem with an extension if others don't. Weigh in here or via PMs

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:50 pm
by Yojimbo
I was looking forward to discussing the final list, and comparing and contrasting, but I wouldn't have a problem about people wanting an extension to the deadline.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:40 pm
by Murdoch
I vote for an extension, I'm having trouble filling in the final five places and would be grateful to get more time to do it.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:41 pm
by zedz
I had no idea when the deadline was, so I guess that makes me de facto happy with an extension to whenever.

Great appreciation of In a Lonely Place. I'm a sucker for that film's ending. So many Hollywood films tie themselves up in moral and narrative knots in order to serve facile redemption up to their protagonists on a plate that it's always bracing when a film acknowledges that some actions are irrevocable, some bad deeds can't be undone. Bogart is incredible, given the chance to push his persona into some very dark territory, and Grahame, given her best opportunity, seizes onto it and plays it for all it's worth.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:38 am
by domino harvey
Kiss the Blood Off My Hands never lives up to the excellence of its title, but no movie ever could. Burt Lancaster and Joan Fontaine traipse around "England" (complete with "lorries" driven on the right side of the road) with a vague sense of purpose as Lancaster attempts to deal with his anger issues and live a straight life to little avail. The Fontaine romance hints at something interesting in the film's first act in terms of naive psychosexuality, but quickly devolves into the rote Hollywood romance you'd expect in a melodramatic women's picture, not a noir. The middle of the film hits all the noir trappings: brutal whippings, forced inoculations, and failed three card monte games. But the film finds itself in the end, where its genuinely noirish fatalism comes into view at last with a wonderfully unhappy happy ending and a very fine scissoring.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:59 am
by Cold Bishop
The Thief (Russell Rouse, 1952)

Got a lot more mileage out of this than you, dominoharvey. I think this film handle's its gimmick wonderfully, working well within its limitations. The major limitation being that is not a silent film, simply a non-dialogue film. It may lack dialogue, but it is still subject to diegetic sound, unvaried time/frame-rate and conventional film style: as such, despite the gimmick, it still works by the logic and literalism that categorizes most of American sound cinema. This tension is something of a blessing in what it forces the film to do.

Procedure: in order to avoid dialogue, but retain coherency, the film constantly focuses on the micro as opposed to the macro, honing its scope down to the tiny details that make up its narrative, rarely (and only briefly) stepping away from its immediate subject (Ray Milland's spy), avoiding all psychology, or any exposition about the past. The film is entirely focused only with what is in front of the camera at any given moment. As such, the film has a great sense of procedure and process, chronicling the minutiae step-by-step of Ray Millan's espionage. It's clear from the opening, capturing an assignment from beginning to end, starting with Milland getting the assignment, and continuing past him, following the microfilm from contact to contact, until it gets to the very end of the country. Isolation: in order to avoid dialogue, it is necessary for the film to stay completely with Ray Milland the entirety of the way. Milland emerges as an isolated figure, with no meaningful connection to the outside world. He keeps all the secondary characters at arm's length, just as the narrative must to retain its gimmick, not allowing any to penetrate his private world, and the film's conflict is largely an interior one. It also striking to find a Hollywood film of the era which makes an enemy agent its protagonist, which is filmed largely from his perspective, and which (until it's less-than-convincing final minute) makes no attempt to sugarcoat or overly-demonize him. High Anxiety: For an audience at the time, the Red Menace may have been the true threat behind the picture, but it is certainly not the antagonist in this film. And while Milland characters spends half the film attempting to avoid capture, its difficult to call the cops the villain considering what the character does. Isolated as he is, the film is largely a study of guilt, social disconnect and paranoia. The character's hardly a card-carrying communist; he seems to dread meeting his fellow agents as much as he does the cops. He finds himself stuck between two worlds that he finds antagonistic, but far too deep to step out, motivated only by habit and survival. The character, in his alienation/independence, is almost the missing link between Hans Beckert and Jef Costello.

It's probably the latter point that accounts for the film noir edge for what should otherwise be strictly a spy film. This only heightened by the location shooting, especially the last third of the film, which makes great use of New York, and especially the Empire State Building. And then there's the entire passage set in the New York boardinghouse, which almost pushes the film into Eraserhead / The Tenant territory. A claustrophobic, isolated symbol of urban decay where even the cracked, peeling walls are loaded with menace. There's the boarder across the hall (a sexy Rita Gam), who, as in Lynch's film (and doesn't Ray Milland look like David Lynch?) seems to deeply unnerve Ray Milland's character with nothing more than her smouldering physicality, doing so far beyond anything that the rest of the film accounts for, even his paranoia. Perhaps its just the side-effect of this genre project, which has me look under every stone and pebble for subtext like the Feds of the 50s looked for subversives, but one can see perhaps a gay subtext here. The secret society lurking just under our own, with a network stretching through all the big cities. A respectable man leading a double life, one which causes him great neurosis and self-loathing. Covert and shadowy rendezvous carried out unassumingly in public or under the cover of night. Perhaps its a stretch, but propaganda never had trouble lumping "deviants" in with Communists, and certainly Hollywood never skimped in giving underworlds shadings of sexual perversion. And this is a film which goes out of its way to give the highest-ranking contact, the connection furthest down the chain to foreign agents, clear markers of effeminate dandyism. Either way, its an entertaining suspenseful espionage noir, which would make a fine double bill with the equally gimmicky horror noir of Dementia.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:22 am
by Murdoch
Hollow Triumph (aka The Scar) - An expertly paced noir; the film is a classic case of doppelgangers - the protagonist (Paul Henreid) kills his double and takes over the double's life in order to escape from gangsters on his tail - but it spins that concept on its ear when it's revealed the double was in just as much trouble as Henreid. The way the double's past intercepts Henreid just before he can make his final escape should be noir 101 on the karmic ending. The plot reminded me of a scene in Raw Deal where a fugitive stumbles into the plot and pleads to be admitted to the house in which the protagonists reside before the police gun him down, it creates this idea that there is a world outside of the microcosm the film resides in and that world is filled with just as much desperation and crime, that even if the characters escape their pursuers or past discretion the world around them is not the safe-haven they made it out to be.
The beautiful visuals of Alton yet again greatly enhance the experience, but thematically I find this film a treasure trove of noirish elements with its play with mistaken identity. A lock for my top ten.

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:28 am
by zedz
That plot sounds like a great hook, but as masterplans go, isn't disguising yourself as someone who looks exactly like you sort of, um, flawed?

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:36 am
by Murdoch
A scar on the double's cheek and a heavy accent sort of make up for this, rather flimsily though. However the scar discrepancy allows for a great noirish moment of the protagonist screwing himself over when, after a careful make-up job, Henreid discovers he has placed his fake scar on the wrong cheek due to a botched photo of the double.

And it turns out that
Spoiler
Unknown to our hapless protagonist the gangsters on his tail were arrested soon after Henreid fled, so Henreid killing his double and assuming his identity was entirely unnecessary

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:02 am
by Yojimbo
domino harvey wrote:Here it is, the first of hopefully many Genre Lists on the forum! Please submit your noir list to me, domino harvey, via PM. Your list must contain 50 noir films.

LISTS ARE DUE BY NOVEMBER 13 (Out of the Past's birthday!)



Compiling help provided by: ArchCarrier, Gregory, Murdoch, ZizouJuve
Hi Domino
Can you clarify whether list has to be in order, or will all films on a list be given equal weighting.
If they have to be ranked, can voters specify equal rankings, e.g. Equal 11-20, etc.

Finally
I know you were asking contributors whether deadline should be extended.
Any decision on that

Cheers

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:17 am
by domino harvey
Needs to be in order: Number One pick gets 50 points, Number Fifty pick gets 1 point

As far as extensions go, good question. Certainly the deadline will be extended. How 'bout one month more, with the promise of keeping the thread open forever for future noir discussions born either from the list or Sad Panda-ing?

Re: The Noir List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:14 am
by Yojimbo
domino harvey wrote:Needs to be in order: Number One pick gets 50 points, Number Fifty pick gets 1 point

As far as extensions go, good question. Certainly the deadline will be extended. How 'bout one month more, with the promise of keeping the thread open forever for future noir discussions born either from the list or Sad Panda-ing?
That new extension sounds fine; that should provide Cold Bishop plenty of time to get through his reviews.
(or, at least put a gun to his head, in best noir style!) :wink:

As for the ranking; I'm not a fan of the ranking in strict order approach but I guess if dem's the rules,...