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I didn't have any problems with the sound on this print at all.

Kino is trying to release Spectre? Is there any news on how that's progressing?

David Ehrenstein wrote:I didn't have any problems with the sound on this print at all.

I'm jealous. In Queens, there was a really loud ticking noise through many of the scenes, like a gas stove trying to start-up.

In Queens, there was a really loud ticking noise through many of the scenes, like a gas stove trying to start-up.

Yes, that's what I was referring to. It was intermittent but whenever it did pop up, it was extremely annoying. A friend in Chicago told me that they had the same issue. David, you didn't experience this? I'm quite certain that it was the same print (there's only one).

Kino is trying to release Spectre? Is there any news on how that's progressing?

No, there's nothing definite at the moment. The major advantage of Spectre is that it exists in subtitled 35mm prints. The transfer costs are hence considerably lower, making it a much safer commercial prospect. Out 1 would cost a lot to restore and would almost certainly have to be put out on 4-discs, pushing the MSRP up by a lot. A four-disc set costing $80 or more of a 16mm film most people have never heard of is just not going to sell enough copies to recoup the costs. That's why I'm highly skeptical that we'll see it on DVD anytime in the foreseeable future.

You know how fans of Star Trek raised enough money to keep the show on television, is that at ALL possible here? I know nothing about DVD restorations, so how much could the total cost be? 100,000 dollars? Is that number even rational?

There was no loud ticking on the print I saw. Must have been the sound system in Queens.

justeleblanc wrote:You know how fans of Star Trek raised enough money to keep the show on television, is that at ALL possible here? I know nothing about DVD restorations, so how much could the total cost be? 100,000 dollars? Is that number even rational?

What an interesting idea. I'm good for a donation. With regards to a restoration I have no idea but $100k sounds steep I'm guessing less than half that.

In any case even if the money could be raised. Who would handle the release and clear the rights etc.? I guess if enough money could be raised it could be donated to the DVD company of choice by the 'committee' (MoC/Criterion) and they do the rest? Is THAT possible?

I was thinking 100K was the total cost in terms of packaging and printing. Still, I may be off.

There was no clicking or other noticeable audio problems at the June screening at the PFA in Berkeley.

David's absolutely right about seeing this with an audience. There's more to the cinema than the size of the screen. Hopefully more screenings will be arranged across the country, and you should do whatever you can to get to one. It's worth it.

A DVD would be great for close study and for those who can't make it to a screening (Hell, find a projector and put on your own screening if/when the DVD comes out). But I hope to see it at least a few more times in a theater over the years.

ptmd wrote:

In Queens, there was a really loud ticking noise through many of the scenes, like a gas stove trying to start-up.

Yes, that's what I was referring to. It was intermittent but whenever it did pop up, it was extremely annoying. A friend in Chicago told me that they had the same issue. David, you didn't experience this? I'm quite certain that it was the same print (there's only one).

Kino is trying to release Spectre? Is there any news on how that's progressing?

No, there's nothing definite at the moment. The major advantage of Spectre is that it exists in subtitled 35mm prints. The transfer costs are hence considerably lower, making it a much safer commercial prospect. Out 1 would cost a lot to restore and would almost certainly have to be put out on 4-discs, pushing the MSRP up by a lot. A four-disc set costing $80 or more of a 16mm film most people have never heard of is just not going to sell enough copies to recoup the costs. That's why I'm highly skeptical that we'll see it on DVD anytime in the foreseeable future.

A few points:

(1) I hope Kino DO NOT get the rights to 'Out 1: Spectre'. If they do, it will be a PAL->NTSC ghostathon, with interlacing.

(2) 'Out 1' and 'Out 1: Spectre' need to be released together. The obvious solution is an Eclipse set of six discs or so. There's a very good chance this is the way the film will first see the light of DVD-day in North America.

(3) The current print of 'Out 1' needs no restoration. It looks fine. Ditto the new print of 'Out 1: Spectre.'

(4) Subtitles now exist for both films — just because they're not "burned into" the 'Out 1' 16mm print doesn't mean they couldn't be added to the DVD. My impression is that even the new print of 'Out 1: Spectre' uses the "soft-titles" (projected from PowerPoint, looking clean and sharp).

(5) There was at least one Criterion person at the second screening of 'Out 1' in Queens in March.

(6) The loud popping noise that cropped up during the second projection of the film at Queens ruined the climax of Episode 7 (the penultimate episode) for many folks who couldn't follow the sound of the French dialogue well enough to realize, sans extraneous and constant popping-sound, that something extremely bizarre begins to happen in the film at this point. This was terrible!!!!!!!!! I will not discuss exactly what it is as I don't want to spoil it, but it's during the conversation that takes place between Jean-Pierre Léaud and Bernadette Lafont. It is a MAJOR MOMENT that the previous 11 hours have been building toward, it provides a key piece of the puzzle with regard to what goes on between Lafont and Ogier in Episode 8 and, dare I say, the "possibly-true" identity of Igor — and it would really, really be nice if the fucking soundtrack was unencumbered so a good portion of the audience could realize (or at least experience) what's happening. Most of the people who I talked to afterward didn't even know what was happening was happening. Because of that goddamn deafening popping noise... which returned at the single most inopportune moment of all 12-1/2 hours.

Anyway, David's right. It's a masterpiece among masterpieces, probably the greatest film I've ever seen. (I suppose it's in a pas-de-deux with 'The Rules of the Game'.) Yes, there are many many favorite films of mine, sublime supreme-masterpieces dancing through my memories —

— but 'Out 1' is something different entirely.

craig.

A few points on your points:

1) It's unclear whether or not this will be a bad PAL -> NTSC transfer. Is the film even in the PAL format to begin with? Hasn't KINO been getting better at this? I haven't noticed this issue with some of their more recent films.

2) Out 1: Noli me Tangere is in need of restoration. And I'm not talking about the sound crackling. There were significant issues during the reel changes, which I assume have to be cleaned up, don't they? When they aren't, I assume the film looks like the current CINEMA PARALLEL release of UP/DOWN/FRAGILE on VHS.

justeleblanc wrote:1) It's unclear whether or not this will be a bad PAL -> NTSC transfer. Is the film even in the PAL format to begin with? Hasn't KINO been getting better at this? I haven't noticed this issue with some of their more recent films.

Are you kidding? Of course it will be a bad PAL->NTSC transfer! Kino haven't done anything else, ever! Practically all European — and Asian — films "begin" their lives as masters in PAL (for obvious reasons) — that's the sad fact of the pre-HD era. Until a company like Criterion goes back one more step and has an NTSC master made from the telecine. There is NO WAY Kino would do anything other than take the master and do auto-standards-conversion. Latest case in point: Their humdinger release of Kiarostami's 'Five,' as just reviewed on DVDBeaver. Didn't see that coming! Can't wait for their release of 'Lady Chatterley'!

Kino, Wellspring, Palm, New Yorker, Strand, etc., have given modern international cinema a very distinctive look on NTSC video since the VHS era dawned — it might as well be called "le cinéma du smear."

Just because it's called 'Spectre' doesn't mean we deserve 4-1/2 hours of ghosting. Seriously, pray they don't have it, or do your best to convince them to sell the rights (if they even do have it) to Criterion, because besides the major studios and Masters of Cinema, everyone else is fucking incompetent.

evillights wrote:Just because it's called 'Spectre' doesn't mean we deserve 4-1/2 hours of ghosting.

lol good one

Are you kidding? Of course it will be a bad PAL->NTSC transfer! Kino haven't done anything else, ever! Practically all European — and Asian — films "begin" their lives as masters in PAL (for obvious reasons) — that's the sad fact of the pre-HD era. Until a company like Criterion goes back one more step and has an NTSC master made from the telecine. There is NO WAY Kino would do anything other than take the master and do auto-standards-conversion. Latest case in point: Their humdinger release of Kiarostami's 'Five,' as just reviewed on DVDBeaver. Didn't see that coming! Can't wait for their release of 'Lady Chatterley'!

This is really unfair and, in the case of Spectre, isn't based on anything. As far as I know, there is no PAL master of Spectre to begin with so in order for them to release it they would have to do an NTSC master, and they have done this before, many times (for most of their silent releases among other things). Yes, they sometimes have problems with the PAL masters they license from Europe, but that is not true in all cases and it only applies to the films they've sublicensed, which is a relatively small chunk of their output. The fact that these films tend to be the titles with the most name-recognition has given the company a bad rap that isn't entirely deserved.

I agree that Out 1 and Out 1 Spectre should ideally be released together, but that's not necessarily practical. Leaving aside the sound issues, Out 1 certainly does need restoration (I can't speak for Spectre as the 35mm print I saw was quite old and I haven't seen the new one). The print is in fairly good condition but parts of it are washed out and the reel endings are frequently a noticeable problem.

As to the idea of an Eclipse set, Janus has never shown any interest in Rivette's work so the fact that a person from Criterion was there doesn't necessarily mean anything. I understand that Paris nous appartient may be getting a release but that's a far cry from Out 1. I'm not even sure that it would make sense as an Eclipse release given the costs involved, and a Criterion release seems even more unlikely. They occasionally release obscure films, but not ones of this length. I agree that the film is an out-and-out masterpiece (no pun intended), but let's be realistic, it probably hasn't been shown more than a dozen times ever and that's including the half-dozen screenings that have taken place in the last six months.

I'm certainly not trying to be pessimistic, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect Criterion or Masters of Cinema to work on every title of this magnitude. There are certainly plenty of other, considerably shorter films of equal merit that have been ignored for altogether less understandable reasons (City of Sadness, for example).

ptmd wrote:This is really unfair and, in the case of Spectre, isn't based on anything. As far as I know, there is no PAL master of Spectre to begin with so in order for them to release it they would have to do an NTSC master, and they have done this before, many times (for most of their silent releases among other things).

Unfair to what/whom? There's 'supposed' to be a practical -standard- of "DVD production protocol," that none of the North American boutique-labels adhere to because it involves some small understanding that one extra step will give the product some added value, and stave off legions of the more obsessive North America-based cinephiles from seeking "foreign" editions of same. I, for one, not only resent having to dish out weak yanqui dollars for expensive UK/EU product; I resent a publisher holding up the rights for a film for 5 years or more with a shitty edition.

With regard to "most of the silents" being NTSC sourced, yeah, the discs are encoded in NTSC for Region 1 — with a straight auto-conversion from PAL tape. Two examples: the Fritz Lang series, and Lubitsch early silents are all: (a) interlaced; (b) ghosty; (c) larded with chroma noise; (d) often authored at a low enough bitrate to fit on a single-layer disc. (And that's not multiple-choice; the answer is "all of the above".) Add the fact that Kino often throw in their own (bad) musical scores, and exclusively English intertitles, and what you've got are bad editions. At least by my standards.

ptmd wrote:Yes, they sometimes have problems with the PAL masters they license from Europe, but that is not true in all cases and it only applies to the films they've sublicensed, which is a relatively small chunk of their output. The fact that these films tend to be the titles with the most name-recognition has given the company a bad rap that isn't entirely deserved.

I don't even know what you're talking about here.

ptmd wrote:I agree that Out 1 and Out 1 Spectre should ideally be released together, but that's not necessarily practical.

No, it would only be conscientious.

ptmd wrote:As to the idea of an Eclipse set, Janus has never shown any interest in Rivette's work so the fact that a person from Criterion was there doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I didn't say it meant anything, just that someone was there. There are probably plenty of filmmakers that Criterion are "interested in" and just haven't been able to release yet due to scheduling-timing, money in the coffers at Month X of Year Y, waiting for rights to expire, awaiting a particular restoration or reconstruction, etc.

ptmd wrote: I understand that Paris nous appartient may be getting a release but that's a far cry from Out 1. I'm not even sure that it would make sense as an Eclipse release given the costs involved, and a Criterion release seems even more unlikely. They occasionally release obscure films, but not ones of this length. I agree that the film is an out-and-out masterpiece (no pun intended), but let's be realistic, it probably hasn't been shown more than a dozen times ever and that's including the half-dozen screenings that have taken place in the last six months.

And if you've been following the memes in the air, you'd know that 'Out 1' has become one of the single most talked about films in recent memory; every cinephile who reads anything on the Web or in print has by now heard the news that 'Out 1' is a "rediscovered" film-essential on the level of a 'Rules of the Game' or an 'Ordet.' It makes licking the chops for a DVD of 'The Conformist' seem a pathetic gesture. Raymond Bernard wasn't on anyone's lips — except those who read film-blogs and film-mags and discovered an Eclipse set was being prepared. The only thing that's making it impractical are these calls for extensive restoration, which is exactly what Eclipse do not position themselves to do. ...

ptmd wrote:I'm certainly not trying to be pessimistic, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect Criterion or Masters of Cinema to work on every title of this magnitude.

...All right, I don't even know what I'm refuting at this point. If Eclipse put the film out, a restoration would be necessary and prohibitive, even though that's not the label's mandate; if Kino release it I should be thankful for what I get.

Let me also note that the whole "whoa... films of this length... I don't know..." hand-wringing is insane, because a theoretical 'Out 1' + 'Out 1: Spectre' release would come out to something like six discs, folks. That's basically the "Documentaries of Louis Malle" box.

ptmd wrote:There are certainly plenty of other, considerably shorter films of equal merit that have been ignored for altogether less understandable reasons (City of Sadness, for example).

'Out 1' is sui generis, although I wouldn't dispute there are great films that need a release. With regard to Hou in general, the reason many of his earlier films exist in a kind of netherworld of availability has to do with particular nuances of business specific to business with Hou Hsiao-hsien.

Before we start expecting Criterion to release OUT 1 and OUT 1 SPECTRE, we should know that they have no interest to release any Rivette title. Even Janus's PARIS BELONGS TO US is toward the bottom of their release list, if you even call something that far down "a list."

And Eclipse is meant for a bunch of Janus films that are not in need of serious restoration. OUT 1 would do better as a FANNY AND ALEXANDER type release. But this is a moot point since Criterion does not care to release this title. Period.

As for other companies hoping to release titles in North America, know that Kino, Wellspring, and New Yorker do not have the deep pockets that Criterion has. They are doing their best in releasing these films, but most just don't have the budget for the highest level of equipment. And it's pretty bratty to expect Kino to spend all their money and energy on a release of OUT 1: NOLI ME TANGERE that few people will buy. I hope they change their mind and eventually release it (keep in mind it was a 16mm print, so the issue of compressing 6000 lines of resolution to 480 isn't as noticable) but Kino doesn't have the privilege to release whatever they want and not worry about cost.

"I will not discuss exactly what it is as I don't want to spoil it, but it's during the conversation that takes place between Jean-Pierre Léaud and Bernadette Lafont. It is a MAJOR MOMENT that the previous 11 hours have been building toward, it provides a key piece of the puzzle with regard to what goes on between Lafont and Ogier in Episode 8 and, dare I say, the "possibly-true" identity of Igor — and it would really, really be nice if the fucking soundtrack was unencumbered so a good portion of the audience could realize (or at least experience) what's happening."

I saw and heard the whole thing -- without any popping sounds. I don't find it quite as crucial as you do in terms of narrative information. For by that point in the film every bit of information is open to question. But it's a lovely moment of emotional clarity between Leaud and Laffont and is quite obviously the moment when The Mother and the Whore was born.

(Eustache isn't anywhere in Out One, but he does appear in Celine et Julie vont en bateau/ Phantom Ladies Over Paris )

David Ehrenstein wrote:

"I will not discuss exactly what it is as I don't want to spoil it, but it's during the conversation that takes place between Jean-Pierre Léaud and Bernadette Lafont. It is a MAJOR MOMENT that the previous 11 hours have been building toward, it provides a key piece of the puzzle with regard to what goes on between Lafont and Ogier in Episode 8 and, dare I say, the "possibly-true" identity of Igor — and it would really, really be nice if the fucking soundtrack was unencumbered so a good portion of the audience could realize (or at least experience) what's happening."

I saw and heard the whole thing -- without any popping sounds. I don't find it quite as crucial as you do in terms of narrative information. For by that point in the film every bit of information is open to question. But it's a lovely moment of emotional clarity between Leaud and Laffont and is quite obviously the moment when The Mother and the Whore was born.

(Eustache isn't anywhere in Out One, but he does appear in Celine et Julie vont en bateau/ Phantom Ladies Over Paris )

I saw this in March in Queens, and I for some reason knew something like this was coming, so I was able to catch it, despite the cracking noise. Though like David, I may have missed why it was more important than anything else.

I don't remember popping. And in that Lafont sequence some of the dialogue is run backwards, so, umm, it's a bit tough to decipher.

(6) The loud popping noise that cropped up during the second projection of the film at Queens ruined the climax of Episode 7 (the penultimate episode) for many folks who couldn't follow the sound of the French dialogue well enough to realize, sans extraneous and constant popping-sound, that something extremely bizarre begins to happen in the film at this point. This was terrible!!!!!!!!! I will not discuss exactly what it is as I don't want to spoil it, but it's during the conversation that takes place between Jean-Pierre Léaud and Bernadette Lafont. It is a MAJOR MOMENT that the previous 11 hours have been building toward, it provides a key piece of the puzzle with regard to what goes on between Lafont and Ogier in Episode 8 and, dare I say, the "possibly-true" identity of Igor — and it would really, really be nice if the fucking soundtrack was unencumbered so a good portion of the audience could realize (or at least experience) what's happening. Most of the people who I talked to afterward didn't even know what was happening was happening. Because of that goddamn deafening popping noise... which returned at the single most inopportune moment of all 12-1/2 hours.

I think I remember the scene you're referring to - the reversal of the soundtrack on Lafont's lines during her conversation with Leaud (I wasn't going to give away what that bizarre effect was but someone above mentioned it, so what the hell) registered clearly enough when I saw the film in London at the NFT about a year ago. I was staggered by this effect, and apparently it was deliberate, at least if Rosenbaum's word is anything to go by - according to a poster on the imdb, Rosenbaum suggests that Rivette used the effect to give the scene an absurdist, Lewis Carroll quality.

At the risk of taking us further off-topic, I would like to respond to a couple of the points raised above:

With regard to "most of the silents" being NTSC sourced, yeah, the discs are encoded in NTSC for Region 1 — with a straight auto-conversion from PAL tape. Two examples: the Fritz Lang series, and Lubitsch early silents are all: (a) interlaced; (b) ghosty; (c) larded with chroma noise; (d) often authored at a low enough bitrate to fit on a single-layer disc. (And that's not multiple-choice; the answer is "all of the above".) Add the fact that Kino often throw in their own (bad) musical scores, and exclusively English intertitles, and what you've got are bad editions. At least by my standards.

Those are exactly the sorts of films I was referring to when I mentioned the high-profile releases that are sub-licensed from Europe. I don't disagree with you about these problems, but, again, that doesn't apply to everything that was transferred from a PAL source (the Stiller discs, for example, look fine) and most of their releases don't even come from PAL sources. Virtually all of their American silents, most of their contemporary releases, and many of their foreign films are NTSC sourced. Don't get me wrong, Kino has released some terrible DVDs, but the fact that those tend to be the discs that get reviewed on sites like DVDBeaver (which has reviewed less than a quarter of Kino's releases) has given the company a reputation which isn't entirely deserved. They have put out many perfectly satisfactory DVDs and there is no reason to assume that future releases that aren't ports of PAL masters will be any different.

If Eclipse put the film out, a restoration would be necessary and prohibitive, even though that's not the label's mandate; if Kino release it I should be thankful for what I get.

You are confusing the issue here. Noli me Tangere needs restoration work, I understand that Spectre has been restored recently. That was actually my original point: releasing and marketing Spectre is fairly easy, Noli me Tangere is a different story.

Let me also note that the whole "whoa... films of this length... I don't know..." hand-wringing is insane, because a theoretical 'Out 1' + 'Out 1: Spectre' release would come out to something like six discs, folks. That's basically the "Documentaries of Louis Malle" box.

Again, it's not just a question of length but costs. The Documentaries of Louis Malle has an MSRP of $80 and includes 7 films by a filmmaker with considerable name-recognition *outside* the world of people who go to film sites online or read film magazines. This release was made easier by the fact that Janus owns most of the entire Louis Malle library and could use the prints struck for the travelling retrospectives two years ago. I really don't see how a set containing Out 1 and Out 1 Spectre that retailed for $80 could possibly recoup its costs. The devoted cinephile community (including myself) would buy it, but I think most consumers would balk at spending that sort of money on a film they've never heard of by a director they know very little about. I would love to be wrong about this.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. However, let's not give Malle more credit than he's worth. Who would buy that Malle set who isn't a cinephile? My dad certainly wouldn't buy that, even if he enjoys My Dinner With Andre. Malle is no more a name recognition to the average filmgoer than Rivette, especially with a box set of unknown documentaries. If anybody bought that who wouldn't buy the Rivette's, it's because it's on "the new cool Criterion label". And if Rivette was offered on that label, he would sell. That's my opinion, anyway.

cinemartin wrote:Yeah, I see what you're saying. However, let's not give Malle more credit than he's worth. Who would buy that Malle set who isn't a cinephile? My dad certainly wouldn't buy that, even if he enjoys My Dinner With Andre. Malle is no more a name recognition to the average filmgoer than Rivette, especially with a box set of unknown documentaries. If anybody bought that who wouldn't buy the Rivette's, it's because it's on "the new cool Criterion label". And if Rivette was offered on that label, he would sell.

I totally agree. Though more people have seen Malle's films than Rivette's. Still, the real advantage is that Janus/Criterion already owned his documentaries and they didn't need to be restored. Releasing a Rivette box would involve restoration costs, if not licensing costs.

But yeah, I can't imagine a box set of four or five Rivette films on the Eclipse label not selling -- if the price was low enough of course.

With regards to the audio at this weekend's show, what I heard was a low pulsing "whooshing" sound every second or so, for long portions of the film. I wouldn't describe it as a popping sound. Don't know if that's what the NY viewers were experiencing. It sounded like it was on the print itself and not a projection problem. Couldn't say that it was so bad that ultimately it obscured intentions; certainly the backwards French could be discerned after a short while even by a non French-speaker such as myself.

Apparently OUT 1 is supposed to be projected at 25 fps, as it was shot originally for European television. Based on listed running times, the L.A. show was at 24 fps.

The listed running times in L.A. were off. The second day was supposed to end an hour earlier according to the listed times but it ended at 10 like the first day.

I noticed no fluctuation in the image or sound at all.