criterionforum.org

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:13 am**

kekid wrote:Just for the record, Porquenegar quotes me in his post above, however the words quoted are not mine. I am sure this is just a cut-and-paste error. However, I want to make sure that readers do not attribute the quotation to me.

Sorry about that. I'll be more careful in the future.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:35 am**

pzman84 wrote:
If Criterion were to release Breathless, how many people honestly would say "Another Godard film! They have too many of those already!" No, people would jump for joy. If they finally released the Eisenstein silent box set, how many would say "They already have released a box set of his!" No, these are title people would run to get. They would make a lot more money than Equinox or a third edition of Dazed & Confused. Also, it would earn them a lot more respect.

Well, it really boils down to people who are excited that Criterion is expanding their vision to include contemporary/foreign/cult titles, and by doing so, hoping to draw more viewers their wonderfully eclectic selection and titles. And their are those who just want their Godard and Eisenstein. I'm guessing that you fall into the latter.

But to cry that the sky is falling or that Criterion has become unworthy of "respect" because of a few adventurous titles is ludicrous.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:36 am**

Antoine Doinel wrote:Well, it really boils down to people who are excited that Criterion is expanding their vision to include contemporary/foreign/cult titles, and by doing so, hoping to draw more viewers their wonderfully eclectic selection and titles. And their are those who just want their Godard and Eisenstein. I'm guessing that you fall into the latter.

Well, it really boils down to people who are excited Criterion is a label that releases quality films, both films that have stood the test of time and contemporary films that have recieved acclaim from both audiences and critics. Their hope is to open more people to great films and foster a sense of cinematic enlightenment. And their are those who just want films that are campy b-movies and mainstream films that flopped and the indie director who made it didn't care about it. I'm guessing that you fall into the latter.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:26 am**

Tribe wrote:
pzman84 wrote: Ya know what, fuck it! All Gregory, ben d banana, kinjitsu, and Antoine Doinel want to do is bitch and whine. I was trying to make a serious effort, admittedly with flaws, to figure out what people's tastes were for the DVDs. However, instead of helping, you go around moaning and complaining.
And you guys fucked it up. I hope you can sleep tonight.

Tribe

Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of tossing & turning at Casa Banana tonight. What a prize nitwit.

I'm surprised by the schedule slowdown so far, as I'd read in Video Business (hello toilet) that Image and Criterion planned to release a similar quantity of titles in 2006 as they had in recent years. But for the zillionth time today, it's early days still. Plus, there are so incredibly many other terrific DVD releases from around the globe that I can't even come close to keeping up with all I have, let alone all that's out there. Plus all of the retrospective theatrical screenings if you live in a halfway decent town (we have a gorgeous new art cinema here) and new films. Far from distraught, I'm sickeningly spoiled for choice, so yeah, I call bullshit on the complaining.

zedz wrote:... so a good quality DVD release of Yi Yi is expremely important news. This, along with the Pialat, should be a benchmark release for Criterion, signalling what I hope will be a new engagement with contemporary world cinema.

Today's Bergmans and Kurosawas are out there, but cinema culture has been so backward-looking for so long that the genuine modern masters are relegated to obscurity...

Damn straight! I've been eager to see Yi Yi and haven't dared go near any of the allegedly wretched previous releases. Pialat is a giant and I'm hoping for more, from whatever source provides this monolingual retard with the subtitles he so desperately needs (Artificial Eye has Loulou on the horizon and I feel fairly safe in assuming their release will beat New Yorker's), but it would be great if Criterion tackles the job. I could watch Nous ne viellirons pas ensemble/We Will Not Grow Old Together endlessly. And zedz has spoken for the wonderful, ambiguous, L'Enfance nue elsewhere.

Expanding the concept of cinematic masters beyond the tunnel-visioned standard is a far more forward idea than begging for more of the same.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:53 am**

I'm also a little confused why JM no longer answers his mail.

Maybe his inbox started looking like this thread.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:11 am**

Let's time travel back to the imaginary thread "Criterion 2001" on this forum on january 15th 2001.

On now let us witness the lively discussion of the recently released criterion titles:

"
OzuFanatic12: The fact that Criterion released fiend without a face in the same month with Black Narcissus is simply a sad continuation of this horrible trend of releasing garbage money making titles along with classic films.

IOnlyLoveRenoir4910: Beastie Boys sharing a release month with Discreet Charm is inexcusable. Clearly this is the end of Criterion. What the hell are they thinking?

MikeHarris: You don't have to buy those DVDs guys! Kwaidan and Double Suicide are wonderful releases! I don't think the transfers could be any better, I hope Criterion continues to provide us with landmark japanese films!

"

Ahh the good old days.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:22 am**

Please set your time machine to 2000 and let Criterion know their upcoming Kwaidan release is not complete. Maybe next time I'll check my disc it will be the complete international version.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:02 am**

pzman84 wrote:How many people out there are planning to buy Dazed and Confused, Equinox, Yi Yi, and/or Koko: A Talking Gorilla?

I can't believe that someone who does so much moaning about the cc not releasing 'quality' films has no concept of what Yi Yi is. Someone who also questions the inclusion of a documentary by a director who already has a documentary in the collection.

No, actually I can.

And I'll be buying three for definite, undecided on Equinox.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:03 am**

Yi Yi is a masterpiece. If anything I would buy CC version of the film simply for its exquisite cover artwork.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:58 am**

pzman84 wrote:
Antoine Doinel wrote:Well, it really boils down to people who are excited that Criterion is expanding their vision to include contemporary/foreign/cult titles, and by doing so, hoping to draw more viewers their wonderfully eclectic selection and titles. And their are those who just want their Godard and Eisenstein. I'm guessing that you fall into the latter.
Well, it really boils down to people who are excited Criterion is a label that releases quality films, both films that have stood the test of time and contemporary films that have recieved acclaim from both audiences and critics. Their hope is to open more people to great films and foster a sense of cinematic enlightenment. And their are those who just want films that are campy b-movies and mainstream films that flopped and the indie director who made it didn't care about it. I'm guessing that you fall into the latter.

And there are those of us who adhere strictly to the outdated notions that box-office success or critical acclaim are the only markers of important cinema. And then there are those of us who manage to think for ourselves and make our own critical distinctions. I'm guessing you fall into the former

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:31 pm**

Antoine Doinel wrote:
pzman84 wrote:
Antoine Doinel wrote:Well, it really boils down to people who are excited that Criterion is expanding their vision to include contemporary/foreign/cult titles, and by doing so, hoping to draw more viewers their wonderfully eclectic selection and titles. And their are those who just want their Godard and Eisenstein. I'm guessing that you fall into the latter.
Well, it really boils down to people who are excited Criterion is a label that releases quality films, both films that have stood the test of time and contemporary films that have recieved acclaim from both audiences and critics. Their hope is to open more people to great films and foster a sense of cinematic enlightenment. And their are those who just want films that are campy b-movies and mainstream films that flopped and the indie director who made it didn't care about it. I'm guessing that you fall into the latter. :D
And there are those of us who adhere strictly to the outdated notions that box-office success or critical acclaim are the only markers of important cinema. And then there are those of us who manage to think for ourselves and make our own critical distinctions. I'm guessing you fall into the former :)

As he thinks that Dazed And Confused is a 'stoner comedy', I think that it is safe to assume that pzman84 hasn't even seen one of the films that he is so riled about. Says all you need to about where he's coming from and how he arrives at his 'cinematic enlightenment'.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:52 pm**

I really love that cover too. I own the Fox version and really love that cover too.....

I really am looking forward to getting my hands on Equinox....but then I don't have good taste in movies

I'm glad there is a forum I can come to go find out what films are 'important', or what I should really want....

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:58 pm**

marty wrote:Yi Yi is a masterpiece. If anything I would buy CC version of the film simply for its exquisite cover artwork.

Yes, the artwork is great and as I haven't seen the movie since it was first released, it took me a few moments to appreciate the obvious reference to the film. Great, great cover.

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:59 pm**

> I think that it is safe to assume that pzman84 hasn't even seen
> one of the films that he is so riled about

how about -- "hasn't seen even one"

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:45 pm**

Hey, I'll be buying Koko and everyone on this board better buy Koko lest we upset the Poor Monkey!
PS Do we get a free tee shirt with the name Koko on the back and double zero meaning OO-OO-AHH-AHH?

Posted: **Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:51 pm**

kinjitsu wrote:
n. w. wrote:I think that it is safe to assume that pzman84 hasn't even seen one of the films that he is so riled about.

Michael Kerpan wrote:how about -- "hasn't seen even one"
In fact, no, in point of fact, well, the fact is, he hasn't seen any...

Yeah. "GO AWAY, COOKIE MAN!"

Here's hopin' that Yi Yi helps soothe the minds of the thoughtfully concerned (David Hare, Herr Shreck, et al.) I would also like to second Zedz re: his hope that the addition of this film signals a rededication toward contemporary world cinema.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:05 am**

I've held off on commenting for a few days, hoping for word of a July release on one of the Kurosawa reissues, or a surprise announcement of "Mouchette" and "La Notte." At this point, despite two really good films (and "Yi Yi" edges into the area of greatness), I can't help feeling like this is the most lackluster month from Criterion since the days of "Hopscotch" and "Ratcatcher." Especially as one disc has limited extras, and the other is most likely reusing specs from an overseas release.

I'm wondering if Image's purchase of HVE has affected Criterion in one unforeseen way: the ability to acquire films for release. A lot of titles put out by the company seemed to be films picked up through "The Classic Collection," the trust set up between Janus and Home Vision. That seems to no longer be in place, as a lot more titles look to be directly licensed by Criterion (including films that normally wouldn't have been so obvious, like "The Virgin Spring," "Fists in the Pocket," "A nos Amours" and the single-disc releases of the "Monterey Pop" titles). Unless Image plans on subdistributing some titles through Criterion (and we'd probably have seen some additional New Line titles, or reissues of some old Blackhawk or Corinth films by now), Criterion might be on their own in getting new films.

Not a happy thought, but a possibility.

-BJ

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:31 am**

edit: can't tolerate my own righteous indignation.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:20 am**

bunuelian wrote:Someone said "I can't believe someone who hasn't heard of YiYi is claiming to know anything about cinema" or some such schlock.

Oh wait it was this:

n.w. wrote:
I can't believe that someone who does so much moaning about the cc not releasing 'quality' films has no concept of what Yi Yi is. Someone who also questions the inclusion of a documentary by a director who already has a documentary in the collection.
Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Pathetic ego-masturbation gone into overdrive. Don't mistake never having heard of a film or even a director with stupidity or lack of taste.

You miscontrue my comments and/or intent.

No-one is accusing him of lacking taste or being a idiot. People are accusing him of lacking the knowledge and experience to back up his constant moaning. Big difference to what you are inferring.

If the poster (pzman) who has spent months and months doing all the moaning about cc not releasing 'quality' films is unaware of Yi Yi, then how can he be in a position to so loudly voice his opinions on the quality of what they do release?
It isn't wrong to not have heard of every film the cc release (I suspect only a handful of posters on this forum do, and I am certainly not one of them), but Yi Yi is far from obscure. That he think its release is unwarranted on the grounds of it being an obscure oddity, he reveals a naivity that is at odds with his highhanded constant griping.

Of course I'm not saying that a person has to have a certain amount of knowledge and experience before they start critising the cc (because I just know that someone would be waiting to pounce on that), but when someone who makes a posting career out of saying which direction the cc is now going (when it is evidently going in the same direction it always has), and demanding that the cc release the sort of quality films that they think it should (despite lacking the knowledge and experience to in any way back this stance), I find it irksome.

*Edit

bunuelian wrote:And aside from the occasional blip.

Needless to say that I consider pzMan an occasional blip.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:02 pm**

Apologies, n.w., it was a bad hour for me to post, and a stupid redundant thing to post anyway . . . .

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:12 pm**

Andre Jurieu wrote:I'll buy Dazed & Confused, Equinox, and Yi Yi. I doubt I'll buy KoKo, but I may rent it. I don't own every Criterion. I only choose to pay for the ones I'm interested in.

I still have no clue how the decision of a consumer whether or not to purchase a product from a company does not effect the company's bottom-line. ).

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:31 pm**

Someone made a valid point that we should talk more about films and less about the business of films. So I am going to make one last remark on this subject and then let it go. Every organization that sells something to consumers should listen to what consumers have to say about what they are selling. Typically this is done in two ways. The first is consumer research. Here the opinions of a small representative sample are extrpolated to general conclusions. While this forum is not a "representative sample", it is a "free" sample for Criterion to get some feedback from. The length of this thread and the passion on both sides provide valuable information to Criterion, which they may interprete, and use or not use, as they choose.The second is the actual purchase behavior, because it is known that intent does not always translate to an actual purchase. This is what I meant by "voting with the pocketbook". Again, I meant this to be interpreted as a statistical extrapolation from a sample. Finally, businesses often sell some products for strategic reasons that do not make money, or do not "fit" in some sense. And so can Criterion. However, the proportion of such issues needs to be always monitored carefully. I have not claimed that Criterion has crossed that line, or that they are in danger of going out of business. As a fond consumer I am reminding them to watch the balance.

One should know when to quit an argument, and for me it is now. I accept all reposnes to this as valid alternate views.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:16 pm**

I'm still not understanding this line of reasoning. How is there always someone else who will purchase Criterion's product if one consumer decides not to do so? How can we assume that another customer will replace the transaction we choose not to carry out? If there is always another customer that will purchase a product when we choose not to do so (thus replacing us), how are there any unprofitable or unsuccessful products at all? This line of reasoning seems to assume that there is a finite number of transactions that Criterion is always able to meet in order to cover their costs, no matter what product they put out into the market.

Presumably, if Criterion creates an inferior product that is unsatisfactory to its potential customers, the product will not generate enough sales for the company to sustain itself. As far as I know, if enough people choose not to purchase a product, the product will fail. Companies generally don't assume a new customer will always replace on old customer, especially since attracting new customers is incredibly difficult and costly.

Criterion is a business and obviously places great importance on its financial performance, at the very least just so that the company may be able to continue to sustain itself. The financial performance of the company is based around the total number of profitable transactions it is successfully able to make. Therefore (x+1) transactions will always be better than (x) transactions (given that the isolated individual transaction is always profitable). Therefore it's the total number of "votes" that Criterion should logically place an importance upon, rather than the percentage, especially within a undersized niche market. If an additional purchase is profitable for Criterion, having a consumer decide not to purchase their product is a problem. Simply replacing customers isn't the greatest business model and certainly not sustainable in the long-run.

I'm sorry if we aren't supposed to discuss business, but filmmaking is one of the most financially dependent art-forms around, so I think it's a perfectly valid topic.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:51 pm**

But selling movies and selling hammers are completely different things. Movies - and art - are ultimately a matter of taste. The reason I can say that if I don't purchase X title, somebody else will is simply because, in the case of Criterion, that is entirely possible. I can probably guess that, except for Criterion enthusiasts/people on this board, there are very people who will be buying both A Nos Amours and Dazed & Confused or Equinox and Yi Yi. The titles skew completely to different types of audiences. Equinox/Nos Amours skew to niche markets while Dazed & Confused will attract a more mainstream consumer.

This argument is also largely completely useless because we absolutely no evidence supporting or disproving our claims. We have no idea of what constitutes, in sales figures, a "successful" Criterion title or a failure. We don't even have access to those figures. We have no idea how Criterion reinvests sales from more popular titles, or what percentage. We don't have an idea of what, in Criterion's history, have been their bestsellers period. What we do know is that production costs vary from title to title as do sales figure. It's entirely possible a "popular/best selling" Criterion title that cost a lot produce ended up breaking even, while the margin on a more obscure title with less extras and overall sales ended up making more in the long run. To try and speculate what releasing "X title" will mean in terms of sales and future viability of the company - without anything at all to base it on - is an argument as silly as it is futile.

Posted: **Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:13 pm**

The whole vote-with-your-pocketbook thing came up as a response to those complaining about Criterion releasing DVDs of films they didn't like. While I'm not sticking up for the complaining, this is a problematic response. In the past whenever someone complained about Criterion focusing their efforts on Michael Bay titles instead of something else, someone else would invariably try to put an end to the discussion with, "Well, just don't buy them." But not buying them won't have any impact because even though a large portion of Criterion's supporters have avoided buying these Bay DVDs, they sold very well. If Criterion were easily influenced by what sells the best, that would actually discourage them from releasing slow-selling but important works by little known directors. Sales certainly have an influence, but the election is rigged because there's already much more familiarity with and demand for Chasing Amy and the like than A Nous la Liberte. Yi Yi is one of the most important releases Criterion has done in some time, but it has sales disadvantages because many major retailers like Best Buy generally avoid stocking non-English language films and because Yang isn't as familiar even to most buyers of non-English language DVDs as e.g. Akira Kurosawa.
One of the things I appreciate most about Criterion is that they have standards completely apart from what sells best. For example, Becker said a couple of years ago that they had decided to release Ugestu Monogatari without regardless of how much it might sell. Due to these same standards they also release a certain number of titles like Equinox and Koko regardless of how well or how poorly they sell. It's part of doing what they like and how they see themselves as a company, and for our peace of mind we'd all do well to just accept it and be patient for the titles we'd rather have.

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