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Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:38 pm
by Tommaso
Well, the discussion of "Sir Arne" has been all over the place in this forum in the last few years, which is perhaps why until now no-one really felt the need to sing its praises here. Comments can be found, for instance, here and in its dedicated thread here. But these are old threads, so your reminder is most welcome. I have nothing to add to the praise, and although I won't reveal my favourites at this point because no-one should be influenced, I think nobody will be really surprised if I say that the film will be my No.1 on the list, too.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 4:39 pm
by HerrSchreck
Yea you'll find tons of orgasmic gushing for that film around the time that the dvd came out in R1. I had to change my clothes several times a day I was peeing myself with glee after seeing that. The terms I used was medieval text brought to life- you say woodcut... (you say tomato I say to-mahh-to,), we're definitely on the same page, Lubitsch. The power and effect, and the singular achievement-- and how bloody OBVIOUS this film was in its effect on Murnau, particularly in works like GANG & NOSFERATU-- are unmistakable. If not in #1 spot it'll be no lower than three.

Well I watched SOUTH last night. In terms of technique it's a very nice, tight doco-- though I would have edited out at least a few minutes of that frigging dog footage at the start, it just went on forever before the narrative kicked off in earnest-- and of course the tale it tells is completely riveting. Incidentally none of the footage (except maybe the whale blubber scenes) made it into Delpuits film (to answer my own question).

Anybody here a fan of Stuart Paton's 20,000 Leagues (an early univeral big uh splash)? A guilty pleasure of mine. Nothing like seeing superfuturistic effects and decor, draped in Victorian vintage! Sublime!

Sir Arne's Treasure

Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 7:30 pm
by Gregory
HerrSchreck wrote:If not in #1 spot it'll be no lower than three.
It's my number 3. I think it has a good chance at topping the final aggregate list. (Unless, of course, Boxing Cats were to stage a surprise upset.)

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 am
by swo17
Since I believe I've become the de facto champion of the Lumière brothers here, and since specific films of theirs can be somewhat hard to find hidden in the middle of 100-film collections that don't even exist in the first place, I've taken it upon myself to make individual avi files for a handful of their films (in truth, the ones that I intend to put on my list). You can download them here.

At the above link, you will find these titles:
Passage Through a Railway Tunnel
The Arrival of a Train at La Ciotat
The Moving Pavement and the Electric Train
The Serpentine Dance
Washerwomen on the River


EDIT: And now also these:
Demolition of a Wall
Indochina: Children Gathering Rice Scattered by Western Women
Indochina: Namo Village, Panorama Taken from a Rickshaw
Oil Wells of Bakou: Close View
Workers Leaving the Factory


If anyone would like me to do the same for any of their favorites, let me know.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:38 am
by Gregory
I have several favorites on my list: Demolition of a Wall, Workers Leave the Factory, The Oil Gush Fire in Bibiheybat, Indochina: Children Gathering Rice, and Indochina: Panorama Taken from a Rickshaw. The first two are pretty obvious choices and are easy to obtain, of course (I believe they're on The Movies Begin).

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 1:36 pm
by swo17
Those are good choices. I've added them to the link found above. Gregory, assuming the oil fire film you refer to is what I think it is, I believe it has a different name than you've listed.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:00 pm
by Sloper
(Apologies for the long post, but I reckon the topic deserves it...)

Re: The Birth of a Nation discussion on the previous page. Tommaso, I like your account of the film’s ‘painterly’ qualities, you point to a lot of the things that make the film so special to me. I’m particularly fond of those warm, gleaming cotton fields at the beginning. And however boring it becomes to ‘spot’ technical innovations/developments, the chase scene involving ‘Gus’, Mae Marsh and Henry Walthall is really cleverly done, and seems so much like a template for later sequences in countless Hollywood thrillers. But, in technical terms at least, I don’t think there’s a scene in the film that isn’t fascinating and brilliant on some level. As to this:
Tommaso wrote:All these marvels don't make me forget the caricature of Stoneman and especially the black people later in the film, though reading the excerpts from Dixon's novel that are provided by Kino on the second disc convinced me that Griffith more or less closely followed the book in this respect. This is not meant as an excuse, of course, but I have always been baffled by the man's stance, not knowing how much he really subscribed to the politics of his film at the time (quite similar to the case of Veit Harlan later on).
I haven’t quite been able to bring myself to read through much of Dixon’s work, although you can find quite a bit of it (certainly The Klansman) in complete form online. But I do know that The Klansman begins with Elsie Stoneman playing ‘negro spirituals’ to Ben Cameron in the hospital, and although I’m sure some of the early parts of the film derive from something Dixon wrote, it probably is safe to say that the first half is the more ‘personal’, from Griffith’s point of view. As I’ve watched the film over and over again, the second half has come to seem just as impressive, though in different ways, but it is also the part of the film where the racism really takes over. It would be nice to say that this was just following on from Dixon, and I think that’s partly true: Melvyn Stokes (whose excellent, fact-oriented book on the film I’ve championed around here before now) devotes a whole chapter to Dixon, and he sounds like a fascinating, complex and rather scary figure in his own right. He actually tried, and failed, to make a film of The Klansman in about 1911 I think. He wrote these books and plays in the hope of correcting what he saw as the ‘myths’ of the Reconstruction period, to set the record straight. He also wanted to pay tribute to the KKK of that era, who were, according to him and Griffith, ‘needed at that time’ – the implication apparently being that there may not be any such need by 1915, or that the present-day Klan was somehow a corrupted form of the original version...but I’m a little unclear on the meaning of this.

The point is, Dixon had a real, burning desire to propagate these ideas, and from what little I’ve read of his work you can feel that axe grinding behind every word; it’s something that makes a novel almost unreadable, I think, when you can just sense that you’re having some ideological point rammed into your head from moment to moment. This is something that came up in the discussion of Lois Weber, and I tend to feel that the problem is less serious in the case of a film. A film, for one thing, is not the creation of a single mind, but a cooperation between a number of artists, which means that in some respects there are likely to be more ‘levels’ to the achievement, more aspects the viewer can appreciate if they’re not too keen on the ideology. A book can make up for its didacticism with a spectacular prose style (cf. Dickens, as good a writer as ever lived, but also an inveterate axe-grinder) but a film can do so with acting, photography, editing, etc – and just as importantly, there is more of an onus on the filmmaker to mediate the lesson to a mass audience, to make it entertaining and commercially viable. This was Weber’s protest to the birth control campaigners who thought Where Are My Children? was unfocused in its message: from the director’s point of view, compromises had to be made in marrying ideology to drama, and today, when the ideology seems outdated and offensive, it is indeed this incoherence which provides part of the film’s fascination.

Griffith’s case is unlike Weber’s: we’re dealing with a failed actor and writer who drifted into film-making and happened to be astonishingly good at it (and later, by some accounts, grew thoroughly sick of it). I have no doubt that he fully ascribed to all of the ideology being propagated in The Birth of a Nation, but only in the sense that any number of ‘children of the South’ would have ascribed to the stuff Dixon was spouting, without really having (or wanting to have) a thorough understanding of it. I guess that links to the ‘lack of intelligence’ zedz was talking about. (Incidentally, I’m not sure I agree with you on this point, as I find that I have to forgive a lack of intelligence in an awful lot of films, perhaps especially the ones from this era, whose content is so often childish and/or commonplace, if not actively absurd or offensive.)

That nostalgia that makes the film so beautiful is also at the root of what makes it so appalling. This is very well encapsulated by the scene when Ben and Elsie go for a walk (I think it’s the ‘by way of Love Valley’ bit). In a famous shot, they cradle a small bird (a dove?) between them, kissing its beak, with Ben occasionally stealing a kiss from a slightly outraged Elsie. As they’re chastely making love, Silas Lynch – who if memory serves is first seen, in this episode, trying to strangle a dog – spies on them jealously, like a rattlesnake in the grass, his grubbily made up ‘mulatto’ face representing a corruption of the squeaky clean, whiter-than-white pastoral love scene we’ve just been enjoying. And this tension provoked by his sexual desire for Elsie builds throughout the film, until the hysterical climax.

The heart of the film’s racist ideology is not that blacks are inherently evil – as in Griffith’s other films, there are some very positive and even heroic black characters here – but that they belong in a subservient position, and that trouble will inevitably result when they are given anything approaching equality with whites. ‘The river Tiber will flow with blood’ sort of thing. Hence, Stoneman’s villainy is reinforced by his flirtations with his housekeeper, and the real villain, Lynch, is an emblem of this dangerous miscegenation. Gus is the only thing approaching a black villain, and even he comes across as fatally misunderstood, a victim of those who have given him a false sense of his own rights. Apparently he is more villainous in the books, where he and some others gang-rape the little sister; and interestingly, one of Dixon’s closest friends when he was a child was a black boy called Gus (maybe not Gus, but it was the same name as one of these ‘rapist’ figures in his books).

Tthe problem with trying to separate The Birth of a Nation’s technique from its ideology is that so much of the technique – the form as well as the content – is geared towards supporting that ideology. This is a good thing, because it means we can’t let ourselves or Griffith off the hook, and it makes the problematic aspects of the film inescapable. More interestingly, though, I get the sense that this insistence upon the racist agenda is all a part of the film’s larger agenda to be ‘the greatest film of all time’: not content with producing a work as technically accomplished as (or more so than) anything that had come before, Griffith also wanted to make sure this wasn’t just a safe, innocuous film with a merely commonplace moral, or some easily digested ‘socially conscious’ message, as in his previous work. Dixon’s plays had caused riots before this, so Griffith knew he was unleashing something politically incendiary, and that it would have all the more impact for being so groundbreaking in aesthetic terms.

Karl Brown tells the story of how, when warned that his film would cause riots if released in certain states (such as Atlanta), Griffith responded, ‘I hope to God it does!’ I like this anecdote because it seems to say an awful lot about the man and the artist: it displays the devil-may-care energy that enabled him to achieve as much as he did, but also what you might see as a terribly irresponsible carelessness (or naivety, if you want to go easy on him). I’m sure he believed in what the film was saying, but that it got him excited more as a showman than as a demagogue.

It’s a little bit like Citizen Kane: I like to think that Welles stopped work on Heart of Darkness, not just because of budgetary constraints, but also because the impish college boy in him couldn’t bear his opening salvo to be so unobjectionable. The scandal-mongering is the icing on the cake; there may be some genuine malice towards, or at least fascination with, the figure of William Randolph Hearst in there, but more than anything it just feels like a juvenile delight in stirring up trouble, and in the resulting (good and bad) publicity.

Griffith’s first magnum opus was designed to be noticed and taken seriously, both as a work of art, and as a political statement (hence President Wilson’s involvement, and subsequent denial of his positive statements about the film). As I say, this irresponsibility is almost more offensive than Dixon’s painfully earnest demagogical fervour. It’s hard to measure a film’s impact on society, but in this case it’s safe to say that The Birth caused an untold number of innocent people to be persecuted and even murdered.

One can hardly imagine a man as gentle and benign as Griffith wanted this to happen, but he cannot have been unaware that his film might have this sort of impact. The lynching of Gus is indeed horrifying, and I think we are meant to have a certain amount of sympathy for the victim – Griffith always abhors violence on some level (cf. Barthelmess’ actions at the end of Broken Blossoms). But mainly we’re supposed to be so shocked and angry over the death of the little sister that we cheer the Klan on as they take their revenge. It’s horrifying in the sense of ‘this is what happens when races mix too closely’.

The most chilling moment in the film is the shot of Gus’s dead body lying on the porch with the ‘KKK’ sign on it. From that angle, and in that light, Gus doesn’t look like a white actor in blackface: the shot resembles a real-life photograph of a lynching in the Deep South, of the kind we’re all familiar with. How on earth did Griffith expect people to respond to this? The fact that he was willing to let his film incur such consequences, just in order to make it that much more powerful, is less an indicator of how much he personally invested in the doctrines being espoused, to the point of wanting to incite actual murders. It’s more a sad reminder of what can be sacrificed in the cause of ‘great art’ – because like it or not, this horrible sequence is an important part of what makes the film so powerful and provocative, and the film would be less good without it.

I know that sounds awful, and to be clear I want to repeat what I’ve said before on another thread: those who say The Birth of a Nation should never have been made are probably right. However much it did for The Development of Cinema, I don’t believe it can possibly have made the world a better place, and the account of the interviewee in Father of Film, who recalls seeing The Birth in a theatre full of loudly weeping black spectators, should be enough on its own to convince anyone what a damaging work of art this was, and perhaps still is. But since it’s there and it isn’t going away, I think the best approach is to meet everything in it that’s beautiful and vile head-on, to engage with it as a whole and consider all the troubling implications for the nature of cinema (maybe for art in general), and for all the great filmmakers who, as Schreck points out, considered themselves disciples of Griffith and of this film in particular. I’ve never seen anything like it, and I’m afraid it’s still at the top of my list.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:08 pm
by zedz
My only homework was going through the first disc of the Edison set in more detail. It's very well assembled, with the explanatory interviews providing nice and necessary pacing for the films. I am pleased to announce that the recommendations from people in this thread seemed to be on the money, as there were only a couple of other films I'd consider including in my list.

One is Gold Rush Scenes from the Klondike, which I liked simply for its documentary value and sense of movement, including a very early (1898) tracking shot down the main street. However, I doubt this will actually make it.

But the one that will, probably smack bang mid-list, is the very first 'film' on the set: Monkeyshines No 1. This is yet another example of everything I like about the film being inadvertent. It's the failure of the technology - the murkiness and bluriness of the image, the fragmentary, tentative nature of the movement, the surface texture of the image that changes with every frame - that creates the compelling aesthetic of the film for me: an eerie, alienating, dark parody of human movement, like an animated Francis Bacon painting. The second Monkeyshines is much more successful in Edison's terms and thus much less effective in mine. The film looks to me like a great experimental film from the 80s or 90s. Oddly enough, in a completely different sense, that's exactly what it is.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:50 pm
by Tommaso
Thank you, Sloper, great post.
Sloper wrote:A film, for one thing, is not the creation of a single mind, but a cooperation between a number of artists, which means that in some respects there are likely to be more ‘levels’ to the achievement, more aspects the viewer can appreciate if they’re not too keen on the ideology. A book can make up for its didacticism with a spectacular prose style (cf. Dickens, as good a writer as ever lived, but also an inveterate axe-grinder) but a film can do so with acting, photography, editing, etc – and just as importantly, there is more of an onus on the filmmaker to mediate the lesson to a mass audience, to make it entertaining and commercially viable.
Well, I can't see much difference in effect if it comes to the recipient, who has a finished work to deal with, regardless of whether you have one author or whether it's a collaborative effort; and both an author and a filmmaker has to make the product entertaining if he/she wants to spread the message he/she has to convey. Griffith does precisely that, of course, and so do Weber and indeed Dickens. The excerpts from the Dixon book I read on the Kino disc were appalling, not just because of the message, but even more because they were simply bad literature. Ezra Pound may have had his antisemitic rants in his works, too, but in his case that doesn't devalue the "Cantos", simply because he was a great poet and stylist. Not meant as an excuse, of course, but here you have a good example of complexity and several 'levels' of achievement indeed.
Sloper wrote:That nostalgia that makes the film so beautiful is also at the root of what makes it so appalling. This is very well encapsulated by the scene when Ben and Elsie go for a walk (I think it’s the ‘by way of Love Valley’ bit). In a famous shot, they cradle a small bird (a dove?) between them, kissing its beak, with Ben occasionally stealing a kiss from a slightly outraged Elsie. As they’re chastely making love, Silas Lynch – who if memory serves is first seen, in this episode, trying to strangle a dog – spies on them jealously, like a rattlesnake in the grass, his grubbily made up ‘mulatto’ face representing a corruption of the squeaky clean, whiter-than-white pastoral love scene we’ve just been enjoying. And this tension provoked by his sexual desire for Elsie builds throughout the film, until the hysterical climax.
Well, it's rather the stereotyped juxtaposition of so-called 'purity' and sexual desire (designated as 'evil' here) that makes for the appalling effect. You could have had the 'romantic nostalgia' without sinking into such stereotypes of Victorian sexual politics, of course, and for me as a viewer it is still possible to separate them, perhaps not exactly in this scene, but in many others in the first half of the film. There is something 'genuine' in this 'feeling for the South', and probably the film would have fared much better without it being mingled with other things. Perhaps it would have been less 'entertaining', though.
Sloper wrote:The heart of the film’s racist ideology is not that blacks are inherently evil – as in Griffith’s other films, there are some very positive and even heroic black characters here – but that they belong in a subservient position, and that trouble will inevitably result when they are given anything approaching equality with whites.
Yes, that's it. I mean, the film begins with an intertitle proclaiming that the whole problem began when the black people were brought to America. That is, Griffith/Dixon plead for complete separation of whites and blacks in the first place, mixed however with the assumption of superiority of the whites and superior rights for them.
Sloper wrote:More interestingly, though, I get the sense that this insistence upon the racist agenda is all a part of the film’s larger agenda to be ‘the greatest film of all time’: not content with producing a work as technically accomplished as (or more so than) anything that had come before, Griffith also wanted to make sure this wasn’t just a safe, innocuous film with a merely commonplace moral, or some easily digested ‘socially conscious’ message, as in his previous work. Dixon’s plays had caused riots before this, so Griffith knew he was unleashing something politically incendiary, and that it would have all the more impact for being so groundbreaking in aesthetic terms.
Then he would be really despicable, using racism only to make his name known, for nothing more than 'provocation'. Perhaps this was precisely the case, but then I could imagine that he could have chosen an equally provocative but less repulsive theme, for instance a film about the crimes committed in the name of Christianity or something (this always works in America, I think...)

Sloper wrote:The most chilling moment in the film is the shot of Gus’s dead body lying on the porch with the ‘KKK’ sign on it. From that angle, and in that light, Gus doesn’t look like a white actor in blackface: the shot resembles a real-life photograph of a lynching in the Deep South, of the kind we’re all familiar with. How on earth did Griffith expect people to respond to this? The fact that he was willing to let his film incur such consequences, just in order to make it that much more powerful, is less an indicator of how much he personally invested in the doctrines being espoused, to the point of wanting to incite actual murders. It’s more a sad reminder of what can be sacrificed in the cause of ‘great art’ – because like it or not, this horrible sequence is an important part of what makes the film so powerful and provocative, and the film would be less good without it.
I completely agree, and this irresponsibility for the sake of art is troubling, but if you want to see the film as 'art', well, it should simply not influence our judgement on a purely 'aesthetic' level. Thus, there's no need to 'defend' "The Birth of a Nation" or Harlan's "Jud Süss", because their quality as films speaks for themselves. That doesn't speak against abhorring such a film or at least parts of it on a purely personal level, but saying "The Birth of a Nation" is bad because of its content (or not including it in the top 50 because of that) would be beside the point, I think.
Sloper wrote: But since it’s there and it isn’t going away, I think the best approach is to meet everything in it that’s beautiful and vile head-on, to engage with it as a whole and consider all the troubling implications for the nature of cinema (maybe for art in general), and for all the great filmmakers who, as Schreck points out, considered themselves disciples of Griffith and of this film in particular.
You said it.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:02 pm
by lubitsch
Tommaso wrote: I completely agree, and this irresponsibility for the sake of art is troubling, but if you want to see the film as 'art', well, it should simply not influence our judgement on a purely 'aesthetic' level. Thus, there's no need to 'defend' "The Birth of a Nation" or Harlan's "Jud Süss", because their quality as films speaks for themselves. That doesn't speak against abhorring such a film or at least parts of it on a purely personal level, but saying "The Birth of a Nation" is bad because of its content (or not including it in the top 50 because of that) would be beside the point, I think.
Well than I am beside the point. Gladly so. Surely evaluating films isn't all about lovely tracking shots and great montage sequences? The art of narrative film consists also in large parts due to acting (which is partly good, partly bad in BOAN) and screenwriting including all ideologic positions (which leaves much to be desired).
Somehow film lovers always want to show other people that they haven't understood anything about film if they don't appreciate the film language. That's partly true, but it's equally true that somehow cutting off the other half isn't going to make the perception of the complex film medium any better. And seperating both parts intertwined as they are during watching BOAN - well that rather difficult, isn't it? One half of you is roused by the Ku-Klux Klan riding and the other repulsed, how you want to seperate that?
And if a film is in some departments such a tremendous failure, in fact such a piece of s*** that the director should have been strung up on the next lantern for filming a recruitment poster for the Klan that helped it to regain a powerful position and bring death and misery on many people - isn't that somehow sufficient to consider if this is really a good film? You folks really can't find 50 films which have qualities in film form AND content?
I shudder when we get to the 40s list and people will start to vote for Jud Süß and Der ewige Jude based on their formal qualities ...

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:12 pm
by Tommaso
Well, let me start with this last point:
lubitsch wrote:You folks really can't find 50 films which have qualities in film form AND content? I shudder when we get to the 40s list and people will start to vote for Jud Süß and Der ewige Jude based on their formal qualities ...
Speaking only for myself, I'm sure that I can find 50 films having qualities in form AND content. But occasionally, in this case the Griffith film, the formal aspect is so extraordinary and/or influential that I simply cannot ignore it if it comes to listmaking. The opposite is also possible, of course, even if I have to admit that on my preliminary list I can't really find an example for a film I put there basically because of its content qualities. This might change with the later decades. And don't worry, I will certainly not have "Jud Süss" on a later list; there's a far greater choice of truly accomplished and influential works from the 40s. Though it worries me that you ascribe 'formal qualities' to "Der ewige Jude", as that film indeed is a piece of shite, even if its 'clever' in some way.
lubitsch wrote:Surely evaluating films isn't all about lovely tracking shots and great montage sequences? The art of narrative film consists also in large parts due to acting (which is partly good, partly bad in BOAN) and screenwriting including all ideologic positions (which leaves much to be desired).
[...]
And if a film is in some departments such a tremendous failure, in fact such a piece of s*** that the director should have been strung up on the next lantern for filming a recruitment poster for the Klan that helped it to regain a powerful position and bring death and misery on many people - isn't that somehow sufficient to consider if this is really a good film?
On the first point: not to forget sets, costumes and music, too. All these 'ingredients' come to together, and the 'mix' or relative importance of them is different with every film. Some people are more attracted by one or two of these ingredients than by others, that's all. This accounts for individual tastes and preferences. What I'm not quite seeing is how you seem to choose not to see any quality in "Birth of a nation" because you abhor a specific ingredient (admittedly an important one, the scriptwriting and the 'message'). That's why I wrote that for me "saying 'The Birth of a Nation is bad because of its content (or not including it in the top 50 because of that) would be beside the point." It's quite simply not a 'bad' film, otherwise it wouldn't have had the effect it has had and which Sloper was so eloquently describing. Instead, it's a highly problematic film, and its so highly problematic because it is so 'good' on many levels. If it was simply bad, there wouldn't be any need to discuss it. Like "Der ewige Jude", but unlike "Jud Süss" (which I keep mentioning only because it is the only film that I can think of that has a comparable or even more problematic nature than "Birth of a Nation", and for similar reasons).

You should equally shudder when "Potemkin" makes it into the top five in the next round, btw. The depiction of the ship doctor or the priests isn't exactly winning a prize for humanism and is massively manipulative on top of it. But that's a general problem with the listmaking: in the end it is not clear why a specific film is on the list, it's just a ranking that wrongly suggests that these films are simply the 'best' made in a particular decade, and that they are all unproblematic because they form (or should form) a 'canon'.
lubitsch wrote:Somehow film lovers always want to show other people that they haven't understood anything about film if they don't appreciate the film language. That's partly true, but it's equally true that somehow cutting off the other half isn't going to make the perception of the complex film medium any better. And seperating both parts intertwined as they are during watching BOAN - well that rather difficult, isn't it? One half of you is roused by the Ku-Klux Klan riding and the other repulsed, how you want to seperate that?
Especially because film is such a complex medium, there's no other way than to step back and split it up into its various ingredients, including film language in its narrower meaning of mise en scene, tracking shots, editing and so on. I might ask myself why I am 'roused' by the KKK riding (I'm not exactly roused by that, but that's not the point here) although I'm repulsed by the message of the film, and the answer would be that it's because of Griffith's mastery. And I have to acknowledge and analyze that mastery if I want to explain both sides of my emotional reaction. That's the opposite of simply 'cutting off the other half'; but saying that the film is 'bad' because I'm repulsed or because the film had such terrible influence on people doesn't explain anything.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:00 pm
by Mr Sausage
Tommaso wrote:You should equally shudder when "Potemkin" makes it into the top five in the next round, btw. The depiction of the ship doctor or the priests isn't exactly winning a prize for humanism and is massively manipulative on top of it.
Surely, tho', you can see the difference between depicting certain social institutions in a negative manner and depicting certain races in a negative manner (the Russian Orthodox Church for example deserves whatever criticism it gets). The film is, afterall, about the plight of oppressed people finally standing up against their oppressors, a scenario that is rather hard to be repulsed by and that is certainly nowhere near as repulsive as making the Klan the moral heroes of your movie. That Potemkin is an historical manipulation and that the events it depicts would, in real life, lead to a genuine brutal tyranny is neither here nor there. The film didn't help cause the latter, and the melodrama of its plot is secondary and only there as a hook for its true focus, the working through of dialectical thoughts by way of editing. The movie's politics have become an historical curiosity; who would bother to be offended by Russian communism now? Unlike racism and anti-semitism, no one need be morally concerned about whether dialectical materialism was a fine thing for Russians to accept in the early twentieth century.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:47 am
by Sloper
Thanks for the responses, Tommaso.
Tommaso wrote:Well, I can't see much difference in effect if it comes to the recipient, who has a finished work to deal with, regardless of whether you have one author or whether it's a collaborative effort; and both an author and a filmmaker has to make the product entertaining if he/she wants to spread the message he/she has to convey. Griffith does precisely that, of course, and so do Weber and indeed Dickens.
Yes, but a film-maker necessarily has to make greater concessions to commerce, because they are so dependent on money to be able to work. This is a big factor in The Birth of a Nation's importance - what you say here is kind of tantalising:
Tommaso wrote:You could have had the 'romantic nostalgia' without sinking into such stereotypes of Victorian sexual politics, of course, and for me as a viewer it is still possible to separate them, perhaps not exactly in this scene, but in many others in the first half of the film. There is something 'genuine' in this 'feeling for the South', and probably the film would have fared much better without it being mingled with other things. Perhaps it would have been less 'entertaining', though.
Imagine if all three hours had been like those wonderful pastoral scenes at the beginning (no career for Griffith after that, I suspect), or simply an account of the Civil War. It would have been just magnificent, far better in many ways than it is, but without the controversial subject matter it might not have been the important statement on film art, and film's relationship to a mass audience, that it was and still is. Not less entertaining exactly, but less provocative - less frightening in its insistence on drawing the viewer in.

All fiction asks us to suspend some of our normal values and (dis)beliefs, in exchange for the pleasure of being involved in the story, but the scary thing about Griffith's film is that it demands participation in its ideology: to reference Karl Brown again, he spoke of the feeling generated by the climactic ride to the rescue, and how new it was at the time to feel quite so involved in what was going on on screen, to feel like you were riding along with the Klansmen. This is the disturbing feature zedz was talking about earlier - the problem is that the film needs you to be 'roused' (as lubitsch puts it) by the Klan's vengeance in order to work.

I should say that the film didn't work for me for a long time. I saw it when I was first getting into silent films, feeling that it was my duty as a film buff to sit through it, but I was too bored to be all that outraged. It just seemed like an 'important', but dated, piece of rather naive and stupid racist propaganda. I responded much more to Intolerance. It was only when I kept reading about the reverence in which Griffith was held by directors like Stroheim and Dreyer that I felt I really had to get to grips with his achievements, to understand what it was that these directors were building on. Obviously those two are very different from Griffith in a lot of ways, but I felt when re-watching The Birth of a Nation that one of his great legacies was this talent for immersing the viewer in the thoughts and emotions, not only of the characters, but also of the film-maker himself - I think later directors were particularly inspired by the techniques whereby Griffith drew his audience in, and I'd like to think that what really impressed them was that they could be drawn into a place, time, atmosphere and, most importantly, an ideology, a set of beliefs, that were quite alien to them.

I remain quite detached from the excitement of the narrative at the climax of The Birth - it really is too disorienting to have to root for the guys in white hoods - but I can still marvel at how cleverly Griffith has constructed the film to elicit the maximum amount of involvement on the part of the viewer. It's an incredible testament to the medium's capacity for inventing a different reality - in this case, a different moral reality, among other things - and making you live it. Stroheim did this to perfection in Greed, and Dreyer in The Passion of Joan of Arc; and I'm sure their faith in the possibility of accomplishing such a feat is owed, in large part, to Griffith. Perhaps it's the relative lack of this quality that now puts Intolerance one point below The Birth on my provisional list, but of course the 'modern story' in the later film brings you unbearably close to the characters' emotions.
lubitsch wrote:Somehow film lovers always want to show other people that they haven't understood anything about film if they don't appreciate the film language. That's partly true, but it's equally true that somehow cutting off the other half isn't going to make the perception of the complex film medium any better. And seperating both parts intertwined as they are during watching BOAN - well that rather difficult, isn't it? One half of you is roused by the Ku-Klux Klan riding and the other repulsed, how you want to seperate that?
Tommaso has addressed this as well, and it's an interesting question. I often have a problem with exactly this kind of separation. For instance, I strongly object to films which ask us to take pleasure in the killing, or other gruesome punishment, of a bad guy, even if the bad guy is extraordinarily despicable. Others don't understand why I take it so seriously - to them, it's just a film, and enjoying the villain's comeuppance in its fictional context does not equate to an endorsement of the death penalty in the real world. It seems appalling, to me, that a film can get an audience into a state of mind where they are happy to see somebody being killed or tortured, and especially appalling that this happens all the time in mainstream films, and especially in films aimed at children - and especially especially appalling because everyone else seems to think it's just a bit of fun. So I can perhaps understand how you feel here, lubitsch.

What I enjoy about The Birth of a Nation is that its ideology is so obviously wrong now, and that today's racists would more likely see it as an embarrassment (or just a bore) than as a recruitment video. I trust that, if I had been around in 1915, I'd have been morally outraged and perhaps would have protested against the film and its popularity (in my apathetic way, no doubt). And I would love to take those Griffith-disciples to one side and ask them what they really thought about The Birth's racist content... But today, I just don't think there's anything to be gained from dismissing the film, whereas there is so much to be gained from engaging with it.

With nearly all films from this period, you have to make allowances for the 'content' (and distinctions need to be made here between story content and moral content, which I think are being conflated). Even with Bauer (from what I've seen), you're having to endure some awfully clichéd, maudlin melodrama, which only works because it's handled with such cinematic prowess, and because Bauer's intelligence invests the absurd plots with layers of interest and significance they would not have had in other hands. And in most of the films on my list, there is some cultural barrier for me to overcome - anyone getting to grips with silent films, or with any form of antiquated culture, has to compensate for the gap between their own mindset and the artwork in question. If you dismiss The Birth of a Nation, you'll have to dismiss any canonical work (starting with Homer) which you suspect of having contributed to the propagation of immoral ideas. Would such a process of cultural cleansing really take us forwards, in any respect?

All I know is that, aside from being very hazy on whether it's necessary or right to bring morality into questions of aesthetic judgement, I physically can't like or dislike an artist's work for moral reasons - even a film that seems immoral in some respects will become a favourite if it appeals to me sufficiently in other ways, and there's nothing I can do about that. I don't need to be told how evil The Birth is, but God forgive me it's my favourite pre-1920s film, and that's that. If you, lubitsch (like some other forum members), are truly incapable of liking a film whose morals you find objectionable, then that may mean you have a stronger moral sense than I do; it sounds as if you might, but of course I don't know. But I think it would be misguided to deny your true opinion of a work of art purely because you feel you shouldn't like it. I do worry about the morality of praising Griffith's work, of buying copies of The Birth of a Nation, and even of putting it at the top of my list; but I also feel quite strongly that this is a good thing to worry about, to grapple with, and that to pretend the film is not my favourite out of a sense of moral duty would be a mistake. The question needs to be asked: what harm will (or is likely to) result from our liking this film now, or from our calling it a 'favourite'?

With regard to the Potemkin discussion, of course Mr_S is right that there is a big difference in extent between this and Griffith's film, and furthermore a director like Eisenstein - or any artist with a Stalin or a Hitler breathing down their neck - has little choice about the ideology they propagate, if they value their lives and careers. Griffith could have made a film about anything, and The Birth is a profoundly personal work in a way that Potemkin isn't. That said, Potemkin is still a film that incites violence against its ideological enemies; what if we talk instead about 1980s action films, and whether their fascistic glorification of violence may have brought about atrocities in a more indirect, but no less immoral, way than The Birth did? But this is a big discussion, and probably veering more towards territory covered in the 'Violence' thread.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:30 am
by zedz
Sorry to interrupt, but I have a little ray of sunshine to deposit:

When the Clouds Roll By

Buckled to swo’s guilt trip on this one and I’m sure glad I did. A goofy, playful comedy that’s notable for Fleming and Fairbanks using just about every trick in the book, and some as yet unwritten, to deliver their premise, which is itself weird enough to be memorable. This is most effective in the proto-surreal dream sequence at the start, which must be some kind of high-water mark for filmic invention of the era, so the regular comedy that follows is inevitably a step down, but it’s still streets ahead of most of the other pre-1920 comedies I’ve seen. And I certainly didn’t foresee the spectacular climax.

One of the winning characteristics of the film, which goes hand in hand with its stylistic confidence, is its sheer promiscuity. Everything is up for grabs and everything goes into the pot, and you’ve got no idea where things will be heading in the next five minutes. The actual premise of the film is incredibly cruel, so much so that the film could easily have taken a turn towards horror early on, and that taste of bitterness is never really washed away, even when that particular narrative thread, which seemed to be the main plot, is unexpectedly tied up in a single flippant gag before the film’s genuine climax is even hinted at.


As for the Klansman discussion, I watched The White Caps on the Edison set last night, and it was a thoroughly unnerving film. I actually found it a much more potent viewing experience than Griffith's film, mainly because it fell so short of it 'artistically'. The filmmaking was so bare and uninflected it almost seemed like documentary footage (though ti clearly wasn't), and, since the filmmakers failed, in contemporary terms, to effectively assert their point of view in the manner of Griffith, the entire film and the startling events it depicts seemed to be suspended in a weird moral vacuum, and it was impossible to side with any of the participants.

I'll also toss into the consideration of Griffith the question of whether or not we should be so easily impressed by Griffith's ability to co-opt our sympathy, or instill excitement or other emotions in us. I'm a sucker for sentiment in movies, even when it's shameless and completely transparent. For me, it's incredibly easy to push the right buttons and get a Pavlovian response. It's exactly the same with adrenalised synthetic 'excitement,' and I don't count either of those things as a triumph of the filmmaker, more as a curious mechanical / physiological effect that's simple to master and of no great consequence.

There are, however, other emotional states, or tricky combinations of states, that are much harder to stimulate / simulate, in my experience, and I tend to value films that deliver on those much more highly. And that's something that may well vary hugely with different viewers. If you rarely cry at a movie, a film that makes you cry might seem like a significant aesthetic achievement, whereas if you're scared by any passing bus, a well-delivered shock might be unimpressive.

I don't know if this is at all relevant to anybody else's relationship with Griffith, but for me the impact of his pioneering technique in The Klansman and several other early films - e.g. the involvement I feel in his climactic chases - is along the lines of techniques I see today in any average blockbuster. They work like a can-opener works, and I'll tip my hat to the guy who invented can-openers, but I don't find them intrinsically interesting.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:02 am
by zedz
Re: When the Clouds Roll By
HypnoHelioStaticStasis wrote:
swo17 wrote:In films from this era, some camera effects, while impressive, can be obvious to the audience how they were achieved. Well, there's a scene early on in this one (in a dream sequence) that's still got me stumped.
Are you referring to...
Spoiler
...when he darts into the house and walks along the side of the house onto the ceiling, with his pursuants behind him on the floor? Because that was utterly dazzling.
That is indeed a show-stopper. My two cents:
Spoiler
I assume you know how the basic effect was done - rotating stage with rotating camera? So it's the bit where Fairbanks is stuck on the ceiling and his dinner is on the floor that's got us stumped? The only way I can see them doing this is split-screen, and pre-optical printers this would have to be in-camera as a double exposure, blocking out the lower half the screen, shooting Fairbanks in the inverted room (and executing a flip in orientation at the end of the shot), then turning it right-side up, blocking out the top of the screen, and shooting the food. Even so, that would have to be some pretty smooth trick photography.

Sure enough, if you look carefully at about the 10.14 mark there's a cut when Fairbanks points towards the entering dinner, and you can see at the base of the landing a slight band where the image is lighter because of the double exposure. Plus, when the spring onion climbs the stairs tentatively, his sprouting topknot fades out ever so briefly as it impinges on the other exposure.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 6:54 am
by swo17
zedz wrote:Re: When the Clouds Roll By
Spoiler
I assume you know how the basic effect was done - rotating stage with rotating camera? So it's the bit where Fairbanks is stuck on the ceiling and his dinner is on the floor that's got us stumped? The only way I can see them doing this is split-screen, and pre-optical printers this would have to be in-camera as a double exposure, blocking out the lower half the screen, shooting Fairbanks in the inverted room (and executing a flip in orientation at the end of the shot), then turning it right-side up, blocking out the top of the screen, and shooting the food. Even so, that would have to be some pretty smooth trick photography.

Sure enough, if you look carefully at about the 10.14 mark there's a cut when Fairbanks points towards the entering dinner, and you can see at the base of the landing a slight band where the image is lighter because of the double exposure. Plus, when the spring onion climbs the stairs tentatively, his sprouting topknot fades out ever so briefly as it impinges on the other exposure.
I figured as much about the first part. Regarding the second, it's been a little while since I've seen it, but isn't there a moment where
Spoiler
Fairbanks flips from upside down on the ceiling down to the stair railing and then slides down it?
If I'm remembering this right, how do you work that out? In any case, however they did this, it's a seamless (well, other than the parts that you've now ruined :wink: ) and invigorating effect.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:52 am
by Dr Amicus
First of all a big thanks to Swo for the Lumiere films. I've watched some of them and at least another 2 are heading towards my final list (Children Gathering Rice and Oil Wells of Bakou). And whilst I'm in the thanks mode, another big thanks to essrog for the link to Europa Film Treasures - a hugely impressive source (and one I find a lot easier to watch on the massive Library of Congress site).

I'm desperately trying to squeeze as much in to the next few days as possible - finishing off the Griffith Biograph set from Kino (about a third of the way through - thoughts below), and then the first Mitchell & Kenyon set, the RW Paul, Silent Shakespeare - and Mad Love is winging its way from Amazon as I type (hopefully). So if anyone is proposing an extension of a week or two, I'd be happy with that! (but will live with 1st June...)

Anyway, I watched the first half dozen of so of the Griffith biographs over the weekend - and yet another thoroughly enjoyable discovery (this has been my favourite research list so far). I'd seen a few Griffiths over the years, but never in a bloc - and rarely in context - so watching several in a short period was new to me. The big revelation was not the editing (that's taken for granted - and the Kino set's early films don't include the thrillers) but the comopostions.

Now, obviously, the whole tableau style leads (theoretically) to impressive compositions - but what I found particularly impressive was the move beyond simple pictorialism to using images to suggest as well show in a more 'concrete' manner (apologies for the looseness of this - I'm entering this at work and doing it fairly quickly!). For an example, take The Unchanging Sea from 1910 - there are several shots of the wife waiting alone on the beach for her missing husband to return. Not only is the image itself beautifully composed (and there examples both here and the not dissimilar Enoch Arden from 1911 where she is framed close to one edge of the frame looking out of that edge - there is clearly someone missing, it is a 'wrong' image) but the repetition, with minor variations, through the film is far more expressive than the intertitles at telling us how much she is grieving, how much she misses her husband, how part of her life remains in stasis even whilst their children grow up.

Yes - this is what film SHOULD do - but for some reason, like my reaction to very early films I noted back on page 1 or 2, I find this both intellectually impressive and emotionally moving. Or maybe I'm just a sucker for Victorian melodrama...

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:40 pm
by Gregory
So glad to see more appreciation of the Biograph shorts. For me, their quality is quite inconsistent, but the good ones are truly accomplished, and the Unchanging Sea is certainly among that group.
I wish Kino had given us another batch of these in their second Griffith set. Griffith directed around 450 shorts for Biograph, and while I used to suppose that most did not survive, IMDb states FWIW that 440 of these survive. The D. W. Griffith Years of Discovery collection has a few that are not in the Kino set. Viewing these "new" ones recently, my favorite was The Female of the Species. It has a compelling, uncharacteristic Pickford performance and some beautiful photography shot somewhere in the deserts of California.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:41 pm
by Sloper
zedz wrote:I'll also toss into the consideration of Griffith the question of whether or not we should be so easily impressed by Griffith's ability to co-opt our sympathy, or instill excitement or other emotions in us. I'm a sucker for sentiment in movies, even when it's shameless and completely transparent. For me, it's incredibly easy to push the right buttons and get a Pavlovian response. It's exactly the same with adrenalised synthetic 'excitement,' and I don't count either of those things as a triumph of the filmmaker, more as a curious mechanical / physiological effect that's simple to master and of no great consequence.

There are, however, other emotional states, or tricky combinations of states, that are much harder to stimulate / simulate, in my experience, and I tend to value films that deliver on those much more highly. And that's something that may well vary hugely with different viewers. If you rarely cry at a movie, a film that makes you cry might seem like a significant aesthetic achievement, whereas if you're scared by any passing bus, a well-delivered shock might be unimpressive.

I don't know if this is at all relevant to anybody else's relationship with Griffith, but for me the impact of his pioneering technique in The Klansman and several other early films - e.g. the involvement I feel in his climactic chases - is along the lines of techniques I see today in any average blockbuster. They work like a can-opener works, and I'll tip my hat to the guy who invented can-openers, but I don't find them intrinsically interesting.
What you say is certainly true of the technique in the 'chase sequences', although I wouldn't say it's as easy as you claim to engineer this kind of excitement in the viewer. A truly involving, gripping action film is very hard to come by, and most such films leave me cold. Remember in Quantum of Solace, when Bond and Bond-girl are in the crashing plane? I spent that sequence mentally compiling my grocery list. Good action films, like good horror films, are like gold-dust - rare and precious. So I'm afraid I can't get on board with the can-opener analogy!

Furthermore, the techniques involved in getting a spectator involved in the emotions, thoughts or ideas of a story are about so much more than the action sequences - they're the essence of storytelling itself, even of art itself. There's a lot I haven't seen yet, but in no film from this era have I encountered a film that really challenged Griffith when it comes to putting an authentic human story on the screen. You can find plenty of examples with equally impressive editing, mise-en-scene, camera movement, art direction, etc, but no one before Griffith seems to have known quite how to create something resembling a personal relationship between a character and a viewer. Nor is this merely the ancestor of maudlin tearjerkers. The 'Griffith touch' can be found in the MacTeagues' sordid marriage, in Joan of Arc's fear of the torture chamber, or in Harriet Andersson's agonised lurch from her deathbed in Cries and Whispers. As always, I don't want to talk about 'influence' in any narrow sense, but remember how Dreyer said he was inspired by the close-ups of Mae Marsh in Intolerance - what Griffith was doing in the context of sentimental melodrama filtered down into the highest art the cinema has to offer. And his genius for eliciting personal involvement is of a piece with his genius for ratcheting up the tension: the way he combines these two things in The Birth is breathtaking.

Look at the climactic siege, where Lynch's army is attacking the Camerons, holed up in the Unionists' shack: in amongst the spectacle and the clever intercutting, there's a shot of a man holding the butt of his gun above a small child's head, ready to kill her if things look hopeless: Griffith shows this from a distance, then cuts in closer; then cuts in closer again, until we can see every detail on the child's face. Then look at that shot at the end of L'Eclisse where Antonioni does the same thing with the passive face of a strange old man. Both moments are about our involvement with the emotional situation on display: one forces us closer to the child's solitary pain and terror, the other forces us closer, paradoxically, to a complete and universal alienation. The intent behind the two shots is completely different, but they both have this 'Griffith touch', for want of a better phrase.

***

With some relief... A few highlights from the pre-20s material on Treasures 3, which I've enjoyed very much.

Bud's Recruit (1918) seems the best place to start, in light of the above discussion. It's the earliest surviving film by King Vidor, and it would be great to see him make it onto the final list. The much-missed tryavna summed this up well on the Vidor thread:
tryavna wrote:The really amazing thing about Vidor, for me, is how sure-footed and instictive his direction was from the very beginning. The 1918 short Bud's Recruit is...a totally winning little film, with nicely understated acting, cleanly choreographed action and comedy, and as sympathetic a treatment of a black man as you're likely to come across in a film of that decade. Vidor really was a major artist, and no less a figure than F. Scott Fitzgerald recognized this fact. I believe that Vidor was the only director Fitzgerald explicitly praised as an artist, and Fitzgerald had even worked with Borzage on Three Comrades.
It's worth watching this film twice in one go, as I found that I caught a lot more of the small details on a second viewing. The ending is the really impressive part, but the whole film has that combination of light-hearted wry humour and underlying seriousness which you find in The Big Parade and especially The Crowd. Intended to shame all of us able-bodied adult males into lending a hand in the Great War, its content is a little alienating in some ways today, especially when placed next to Big Parade's take on the subject. But the handling of the story - in particular the drama between the two brothers - is full of humour, sympathy and subtlety. The character of the black servant conforms to many of the usual stereotypes, but the black actor's performance is nuanced and dignified, and Vidor gives the film's emotional climax to him, in a brief but intensely moving close-up.

My favourite film on the set is probably From the Submerged (1912), about a despairing down-and-out who is saved by a passing beauty. The film has an almost spiritual air of transcendence about it, of a kind that characterises a lot of the films I've responded to most from this period; fans of Land Beyond the Sunset should enjoy it, and it has vague echoes of Twilight of a Woman's Soul (though it isn't at all in the same league). Great score by Michael Miller as well.

The Usurer's Grip (1912) is a well-acted 'educational' film, building up a fine atmosphere of inexorable ruin and despair until things take a disappointingly upbeat turn in the last few minutes. Oh well.

No such luck in Who Pays?: Episode 12 (1915), a tremendously effective and surprisingly bleak Griffith-esque melodrama about disgruntled labourers turning violently against their employer. The great director, Henry King, plays the lead role, and there's a marvellous close-up of him at the end in which his large, limpid eyes bulge in horror - a shivers-down-the-spine moment. Apparently King also worked on the scripts for this series, and according to imdb the direction as well (the Treasures booklet doesn't seem to bear this out, although I haven't listened to the commentary yet). And it seems that all twelve episodes survive, so let's hope the whole thing will be given its own release some day... Also remarkable here is the use of Breil's score for The Birth of a Nation on the soundtrack; according to Martin Marks this was fairly common practice at the time, and it works well in this case.

Fans of documentaries shouldn't miss The Reawakening (1919), a beautiful account of injured soldiers being rehabilitated after WWI. It begins with evocative snow scenes, and ends with a nice bit of time-lapse photography.

Trial Marriages (1907), which on its own is nothing very special, is transformed into comedy gold by the Aardett Sextet's accompaniment, which is so refreshing after the usual faux-jaunty piano-jangling they stick on these poor early comedies. The Voice of the Violin (1909) is also worth watching for Allen Feinstein's witty score. Martin Marks really does a great job curating the music on these sets (and I'd second Swo's praise, from earlier, of his ambitious accompaniment to Where Are My Children?, especially the final scene).

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 4:39 pm
by Titus
Dr Amicus wrote:Now, obviously, the whole tableau style leads (theoretically) to impressive compositions - but what I found particularly impressive was the move beyond simple pictorialism to using images to suggest as well show in a more 'concrete' manner (apologies for the looseness of this - I'm entering this at work and doing it fairly quickly!).
If you haven't seen it yet, I strongly recommend The Country Doctor (it's on the second Treasures from American Film set, I believe). Some of the most gorgeous images from Griffith's early work, such as the lyrical shot of the family moving through the tall grass, completely immersed in nature, or the panning shots that bookend the film (the first of which is lovely and idyllic, while the latter one takes on a very different kind of significance). One of my favorites of his Biograph shorts.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:20 pm
by zedz
swo17 wrote:I figured as much about the first part. Regarding the second, it's been a little while since I've seen it, but isn't there a moment where
Spoiler
Fairbanks flips from upside down on the ceiling down to the stair railing and then slides down it?
If I'm remembering this right, how do you work that out? In any case, however they did this, it's a seamless (well, other than the parts that you've now ruined :wink: ) and invigorating effect.
Spoiler
I sort of hinted at that in my previous post, but this can only have been achieved by spinning the set / camera 180 degrees very quickly at the end of the first exposure, with Fairbanks bracing himself between ceiling and bannister for the couple of seconds everything's in motion so he doesn't fall sideways.
It's an excellent example of just how carefully devised the shot was to create the illusion of utter impossibility. I can only imagine how mind-blowing it must have seemed in 1919, if we're still scratching our heads over it today. Does anybody nowadays look at Avatar and wonder in awe "how did they do that?" ("Why?" perhaps.)

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:35 pm
by zedz
Sloper wrote:What you say is certainly true of the technique in the 'chase sequences', although I wouldn't say it's as easy as you claim to engineer this kind of excitement in the viewer. A truly involving, gripping action film is very hard to come by, and most such films leave me cold. Remember in Quantum of Solace, when Bond and Bond-girl are in the crashing plane? I spent that sequence mentally compiling my grocery list. Good action films, like good horror films, are like gold-dust - rare and precious. So I'm afraid I can't get on board with the can-opener analogy!
I agree, but even in sequences as incoherent as those in most contemporary action films, they still manage to convey a caffeinated jitter to me, just the kind of empty cinematic calories I dislike, even though the lizard brain still responds to them. It's certainly unfair to tar Griffith with the same brush, let alone feather him. Action films that deliver more than that, whether it be mere spatial coherence, emotional complexity or, heaven forbid, some intelligent subtext, are indeed to be treasured, though I'd argue that The Klansman could only qualify on the first of those grounds.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:26 pm
by HerrSchreck
lubitsch wrote: And seperating both parts intertwined as they are during watching BOAN - well that rather difficult, isn't it? One half of you is roused by the Ku-Klux Klan riding and the other repulsed, how you want to seperate that?...
For me it's absolutely easy, the simplest thing in the world. I don't know if this is something that's difficult for most others-- I recall a conversation I had with Sausage (form vs subtance) where I realized that this clinical observation of the formal qualities of a film's style and techinical prowess/sense of innovation isn't as pervasive (or at least as natural) as I'd imagined it to be among cineastes (or lovers of the other arts).

Some discuss films like BOAN-- and films very much similar to it-- almost as though their very souls were at stake if they allow themselves to dissolve from their armchair and fall into the film's narrative. One slip into the narrative, no matter the intent on the part of the viewer, and they're stained forever, or so the fear seems to go... and the moral hammer is always publicly brandished as a matter of social obligation and ready to come down on those who wish a selective abd quailified recognition of a salutary quality. Any discussion of the film must be preambled with the obligatory hi-volume disclaimer of rampant disgust at the obviously racist qualities the film contains.

I admit that as far as BOAN goes, it's highly unusual territory, as there are very few inflammatory films which have weilded such enormous power and influence over not only our own personal heroes and their era, but the industry entire.

I propose that it's okay to sink into these films, even to allow yourself-- if your moral compass is well magnetized towards the better angels of human impulse-- to be carried away by them, even to try to feel them in the manner of an old bigoted viewer so one can truly comprehend what it is that these people are made of. There is no bad information out there, really-- what matters is what you choose to do with this information, and how you integrate it into your life. If it is in the world, then there can be a beneficial place for it in your mind, if only to broaden the width of your comprehension of human beings and what they are capable of.

I say this not only because film--and the arts in general-- are vehicles of transportation up and away from your own mindset into not only the agreeable and the attractive but to worlds alien, strange, extremely obscure, even poisonous, dangerous, sick and sinister... I say this because I firmly believe: Know Thine Enemy. See him not merely for his most brutal of acts, but for his whimsies, for his sentiments, for the nature and odor of his heartaches, loves, yearnings. From watching things like BOAN or Triumph des willens, and other, less aesthetically impressive works of a similar ilk, and allowing yourself for that hour or two (per viewing) to truly digest the mindset on display there... to truly allow yourself to be transported by the vehicle of the narrative, and to watch carefully and not actively and needlessly fight the obviously objectionable material during the viewing experience, you'll find, as time goes on after this kind of viewing, that you'll begin to, in your own life, pick up quite a bit earlier on nuances certain individuals give out re political dosposition and social outlook. There are certain kinds of nostalgias--nostalgias of country, nostalgias of local atmosphere, for ways of doing business, of education, etc-- that prejudice and bigotry is subject to; and as a white person in the United States, living in the outer boros with tight-knit ethnicities, or traveling down south to Virginia or to Florida to see relations, there are certain kinds of conversational feelers that these vile creatures (no no not my family, thank god) engage in floating first, like testing out ice on a pond before skating. If you're a bigoted person in uncertain surroundings, you can't just pop out with "These fucking n*&$#@'s are ruining the country," you've got to ease your way in first. Some are more passive aggressive, and will never go all the way there with relative unfamiliars. But as someone who is a 1) WW2 historian, particularly of the European theater of the war, a 2) close social observer, very engaged with events past and current, and the changes wrought by the past decade or two (which, perhaps via elucidation of my own sentiment, is very often a trigger for the unloading of the unsightly sentiments of others.. "You know what the real problem is, don't you?" and there you go..), and you can throw in the fandom for German culture between the two great wars, I can tell you beyond all doubt developing your Bigot Early Warning System so you don't get taken by surprise when some slime suddenly gets Morallly Naked-- this is a good thing. You can nip nasty confrontations in the bud by steering the conversation away (or simply getting up and leaving) from the recognizable lead-ins. More pragmatically, you get to learn to see the signs so you don't waste time with closet morons.

This sort of aesthetic exercise is not obligatory of course, and certainly shouldn't get so frequent that we're veering towards the behavior of "Cultural Guardians Against Pornography" that we've seen in the US Senate, where a bunch of horny old men watch XXX constantly, proclaiming that they're "Keeping an eye on these purveyors of filth"... and that Watchful Eye seems to be a little TOO unable to look at anything else.

The post isn't really geared towards anyone in particular... most like zedz who dismiss the film avoid the shrill hyperbole and total shut-out of information viz those who seem the most militantly vehement in their rejection of BOAN. If the concern is that profound, I'm suggesting that it's never a bad thing to understand people who are sick, rather than to simply shut them out of all possible cognizance.

That aside, in strictly human terms, I genuinely believe that being transported into objectionable mindsets is only a bad thing if the subject is so utterly malleable that a conversion from humanism and decency to racism and vitriol is possible through the mere watching of a film (and let's be frank: film is very powerful, and people HAVE been converted-- or at least nudged-- in hideous directions by state-sponsored propaganda). I don't think anybody here is suggesting this is a danger among members here. One can grow, learn how folks all the way on the other side of the social spectrum think and live, they can occupy the mind of a murderer, despot, etc thru film. Hopefully one can recognize the accomplishment of the verse in the outrageously horrendous TITUS ANDRONICUS without making pie out of kids and serving it to their mother, and digest the obvious accomplishment in BOAN without being in fear for one's moral fiber.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:58 pm
by Tommaso
I completely agree with all you said, Schreck, so just one comment:
HerrSchreck wrote:I don't know if this is something that's difficult for most others-- I recall a conversation I had with Sausage (form vs subtance) where I realized that this clinical observation of the formal qualities of a film's style and techinical prowess/sense of innovation isn't as pervasive (or at least as natural) as I'd imagined it to be among cineastes (or lovers of the other arts).
According to my experience, the 'naturalness' of this separation might have to do with whether you are yourself a 'practising' artist - on whatever level ( I'm not talking about 'professional' artists here exclusively) - or not. If you are in some way actively involved in creating something and not just commenting on it, your perspective over the years changes. You are much more able to value or at least accept a certain craftsmanship which you know isn't easily achieved, even if you don't like the end result for whatever reasons - it doesn't fit with your own world-view, or it simply only doesn't fit with your own 'style' -, and the focus also shifts to the more formal qualities when considering other arts than the one you're involved with. That is why I always tend to trust the statements of the creator of a piece of art more than the critics, because what these find important (a philosophical or social statement, an expression of a personal love affair or anything else) might have been absolutely secondary for the artist, who might have puzzled much longer over the question of whether he should entrust a particular melody line to the oboe or to the bassoon...

This becomes a problem if the artist is so involved in his or her own reality that it overshadows everything else. A particularly bizarre example, even for my taste, is that scene in Müller's Riefenstahl-documentary in which the old lady after almost 60 years still revels about how she managed to cut the marching party-boys in "Triumph" perfectly to the music. In such a moment it becomes clear that her repeated statements that all she had in mind when doing that film were questions of making it 'visually interesting' were not only an attempt to whitewash herself. It shows a loss of touch with reality, of course, but I can at least somehow understand that mindset, even if I don't approve of it.

Re: Pre 1920s List Discussion and Suggestions

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:47 am
by HerrSchreck
Tommaso wrote:I completely agree with all you said, Schreck, so just one comment:

According to my experience, the 'naturalness' of this separation might have to do with whether you are yourself a 'practising' artist - on whatever level ( I'm not talking about 'professional' artists here exclusively) - or not. If you are in some way actively involved in creating something and not just commenting on it, your perspective over the years changes.
This is precisely what I came to understand, have accepted it pretty much as the primary reason that this impulse is not as pervasive as I once thought it was.