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Thanks, feihong, that sounds right on the money (I haven't seen the film yet).

Here's something that would be an amusing turn of events: due to licensing agreements, Wong Kar-wai's tinkering only applies to the Region A release, and the Region B set will contain the original versions of the films. I say that would be "amusing," but it's really just an asinine wish.

amazing Sherlock Holmes work cowboydan.
well, I'm happy I still have the OOP "Chungking Express" Criterion on Blu-Ray.
This lovely chute de rein is the sweatest landing runway I've ever seen. It will be interesting to see some alternative cuts. It will be interesting if these are subtle different cuts with the running time of the movie approximately the same (it kind of reminds me how Rivette re-cut the short version of "La Belle Noiseuse" with some different cuts)
Well, now with the extended cut of "The Hand", "Fallen Angels" (one of my other favorite WKW movie) now in scope (I tend to prefer the previous ratio. But since I don't have seen it in scope, well I don't know...), everything seems to be a redux like F.F Coppola is doing each year.
I wish the original cut were kept and still available. I don't have the US DVD box set I first bought in order to compare if the Criterion blu-ray of "Chungking Express" was already different in comparison to the Miramax DVD US.
The picture quality was a significant jump between the DVD and the Blu-Ray (Chungking Express via Criterion on Blu-Ray, and Fallen Angels via Kino on Blu-Ray).

just a thing about "Chungking Express" : the restoration trailer is not an excerpt of the movie, but a trailer, and sometimes with Wong Kar Wai, trailers could content some different cuts or angles, even some outtakes unused (2046 trailer on the TF1/Ocean DVD is one of the best example : the movie looks like it was more focus on the tunnel, a kind of "Zone" temporal, suspended time like in "Stalker" for lovers...)
If I remember well in US DVD box set of "Happy Together" WKW or Christopher Doyle were talking about a totally different cut with a girl, and the movie was much more like a trio than the cut released by Kino on blu-ray. I hope that WKW will keep Frank Zappa edit of "I've been in you" (wouldn't know that this song could have been turned into a serious romance song- Frank Zappa would have been amused with this).
Same for the jazzy edit (without the electric guitar intro) of the saxophone with wah-wah of "Chunga's Revenge".

How many reviewers are going to pick up on those changes though and call WKW to task for it? I fear we're going to see this set on multiple Best of Year lists next December because it's Criterion and many probably won't know the films closely enough to tell the differences, other than where it is super obvious (Fallen Angels).

Finch wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:13 am How many reviewers are going to pick up on those changes though and call WKW to task for it? I fear we're going to see this set on multiple Best of Year lists next December because it's Criterion and many probably won't know the films closely enough to tell the differences, other than where it is super obvious (Fallen Angels).

Wouldn't this mean the changes are being overblown?

Not necessarily — Star Wars is more ubiquitous than WKW’s work, but put the 4K disc in front of someone and they probably wouldn’t be able to tell you “maclunkey” is an addition, even if it’s still detrimental to the overall film.

To that point, I think people are generally pretty adaptable and resilient, and that extends to replacing cinematic contexts as the new normal, so I could probably buy this set and throw away old copies and stop reading this thread and be fine appreciating the films once the hysteria has worn off... but the question is ethical pertaining to eliminating superior versions rather than the changes being detrimental to appreciation within a vacuum. In other words, a person's subjective capacity to ignore and adjust to change isn't indicative of changes being objectively overblown.

I'm highly curious to discover the new transfer (and cut) in the upcoming Criterion box set; but I'm happy to have kept the previous Blu-Ray (especially for Fallen Angels and Chungking Express)
My highest expectations are for 2046 which I did not see so far in a proper HD transfer. Zhang Ziyi is superb in this movie. If some scenes with her are cut in the new transfer it will break my heart.
For instance, F.F Coppola recut and extended "Cotton Club" which is really great IMHO now but cut one superb shot of Diane Lane in the love scene which literally broke my heart. Otherwise this new redux was perfect.
I was curious about the Godfather III redux. I was not that convinced, contrary to "Cotton Club". They cut a "cult" line by Eli Wallach during the Sicilia scenes.
Had they cut a single shot of Bridgette Fonda , I would have killed myself. They did re-grading the color but it was already okay for me (perhaps the last part is too dark).
I've always loved the part III. To me the opening sequence (which is totally skipped) from the theatrical cut, shots from the deserted, abandoned house was haunting and really worked. It's sad it's not there anymore.
Since "Ashes Of Times" redux I'm "used" of WKW subtle or radical changes. Moreover, with the DVD media, before Criterion Blu-Ray releases, we weren't sure of the tint, grading, some shots were supposed to be in black & white (but were in color, etc...) - there was a lot of web site about all the DVDs releases of WKW movies before the blu-ray came out (Criterion and Kino)

soundchaser wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:49 am Not necessarily — Star Wars is more ubiquitous than WKW’s work, but put the 4K disc in front of someone and they probably wouldn’t be able to tell you “maclunkey” is an addition, even if it’s still detrimental to the overall film.

Not entirely sure this is bolstering your point

therewillbeblus wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:01 am To that point, I think people are generally pretty adaptable and resilient, and that extends to replacing cinematic contexts as the new normal, so I could probably buy this set and throw away old copies and stop reading this thread and be fine appreciating the films once the hysteria has worn off... but the question is ethical pertaining to eliminating superior versions rather than the changes being detrimental to appreciation within a vacuum. In other words, a person's subjective capacity to ignore and adjust to change isn't indicative of changes being objectively overblown.

I don't like changes being made to movies after the fact but I don't think treating it like someone drew a mustache on the Mona Lisa is necessarily... a fully accurate... response? "Filmmaker re-evaluates or tinkers with his own work that wouldn't exist without him" isn't quite "Timeless art savaged, no survivors" the way this thread might lead one to believe. But I guess we'll see how this all shakes out.

Yeah but I'm agreeing with half of that- to use a branch of your analogy, there are survivors, and they will move on from their trauma from being "savaged" but that savagery took place nonetheless. The replacement of art is still a form of erasure of art, even if we acclimate to what's new. Some of these changes are so drastic that they glare like a mustache on the Mona Lisa, but I bet we'd all get used to the Mona Lisa with a mustache too after the news died down and a few trips to the museum.

Rupert Pupkin wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:06 am just a thing about "Chungking Express" : the restoration trailer is not an excerpt of the movie, but a trailer, and sometimes with Wong Kar Wai, trailers could content some different cuts or angles, even some outtakes unused (2046 trailer on the TF1/Ocean DVD is one of the best example : the movie looks like it was more focus on the tunnel, a kind of "Zone" temporal, suspended time like in "Stalker" for lovers...)

There are any number of pre-release trailers (not exclusively for WKW films) that use alternate takes or even scenes and shots completely missing from the finished film; I can't think of another example where a re-release trailer does that.

mfunk9786 wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:14 am

soundchaser wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:49 am Not necessarily — Star Wars is more ubiquitous than WKW’s work, but put the 4K disc in front of someone and they probably wouldn’t be able to tell you “maclunkey” is an addition, even if it’s still detrimental to the overall film.

Not entirely sure this is bolstering your point

How so? To explain things a different way, had I seen this new version of Fallen Angels first I'd have thought the selected coloring-in was tacky, but I'd have chalked it up to either a) me not understanding the film or b) others having poor taste (to praise it as such a masterpiece). I'd have known something was bad about it, but had I not done the research beforehand I wouldn't know that it wasn't originally that way. The changes may be not all be as dramatic as that one, but they all contribute to the fact that the *new* film on this disc is presenting itself as the one audiences and critics fell in love with, and I object to that on principle.

Well, I think the addition of that line is nowhere near as detrimental to Star Wars as the vast majority of attention-seeking changes introduced en masse with the release of the special editions. But the truth is that Lucas was making less noticeable changes all along. And this sort of thing happens all the time. (For instance, remember recently when it was revealed that Soderbergh changed, like, a sticker on a car in a brief scene of sex, lies, and videotape? I don't think anyone begrudges him that.) So where do you draw the line? Perhaps like with CGI, it's only a problem when you notice it.

The thing that I don't get, more than the ethical question, is that there will certainly be a huge market for both the original versions and the revisions of any film like this that has found a place in popular culture. So why not cash in on that by making the different versions readily available?

swo17 wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:36 pmThe thing that I don't get, more than the ethical question, is that there will certainly be a huge market for both the original versions and the revisions of any film like this that has found a place in popular culture. So why not cash in on that by making the different versions readily available?

To avoid answering the tricky first question you raised, I don't get this either. Surely the "Love Conquers All" version of Brazil is a selling point for the Criterion? Or the Japanese version of King Kong vs. Godzilla? Or the silent version of The Gold Rush? Why be so stubborn about this?

I agree with TWB that, in essence, tinkering (or mutilating) that effectively serves to erase the original work released to the world is fundamentally unethical artistically.

soundchaser wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:45 pm

swo17 wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:36 pm... So why not cash in on that by making the different versions readily available?

...
Why be so stubborn about this?

You are presuming that it was Criterion's decision to omit the orignal versions. Someone on reddit got a response back from Criterion, who told them that WKW did not want them included. The licensor gets the final say.

dwk wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:01 pm

soundchaser wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:45 pm

swo17 wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:36 pm... So why not cash in on that by making the different versions readily available?

...
Why be so stubborn about this?

You are presuming that it was Criterion's decision to omit the orignal versions. Someone on reddit got a response back from Criterion, who told them that WKW did not want them included. The licensor gets the final say.

source / link please?

I see how my quote could read that way, but I was also tilting at the WKW windmill. (It is good to hear Criterion didn’t make the decision themselves, but I still think they should be clearer about these not being the original versions.)

here. Re-reading it, they don't flat out say that they can't include the original, but I doubt if they'd be willing to publicly say more than what they said in that email. I am reminded of The Last Emperor, all Criterion would say was that they asked the producer and Bertolucci and they signed off on the aspect ratio change, but, according to Robert Harris, Criterion was essentially told you can release the Storarovision or nothing.


Also, it appears that In the Mood for Love has some additional music cues? (so yeah, more changes )

It's always safe to assume in a situation like this that the label's hands were tied. Including both versions is the very definition of a no-brainer, and I can't imagine a single producer who wouldn't go firmly down that road if it were contractually possible.

But if terms are dictated by the owner of the films, there's very little that a label can do; they don't have the power to just override contractual demands. The editor of Age of Consent complained in a letter to Sight & Sound about the Indicator edition including two cuts, but since Sony was happy to sanction this he was powerless to prevent it - and to my mind it was essential to include the Columbia studio-mandated cut, if only because that's the only one that anyone outside Australia would have been able to see or write about for nearly four decades. But if Sony had explicitly forbidden Indicator from including anything other than the Film Foundation version... well, that would have been that.

And it's pretty obvious why Criterion isn't exactly trumpeting the changes from the rafters - I mean, if you were in their position and had staff to pay and sales targets to meet, would you?

Yes, I understand why Criterion feels they have to be slightly underhanded about this, but I do think the whole situation is a shame. Indicator is always communicative about not being able to include alternate versions (the roadshow version of Sweet Charity comes to mind), and I doubt it really hurts their bottom line...though I understand that their place in the market and Criterion's are slightly different.

Didn't people always assume Wong Kar-Wai was the one pushing these changes, demanding these changes, excluding previous cuts of the films from the set? I thought that was a given. But I don't have Wong Kar-Wai's e-mail address, so I can't complain to him directly. Honestly, if I had that address, he'd get an e-mail every time another change to the films was announced, and frankly, he'd deserve it.

Dismayed to hear about new music cues on In the Mood for Love. This set just keeps getting worse and worse. And I do feel as if most people will embrace the new versions, and they won't care––especially in terms of Chungking Express, Happy Together and INMFL, which are, it seems, altered, but not heavily so. Fallen Angels, I think, will go the way of Ashes of Time, and become the red-headed stepchild of the set. People will think of it as the weird movie, the experiment that looks strange and is hard to watch. They won't identify the image manipulation by name, but that will be a big part of people's lack of enthusiasm for Fallen Angels. This is basically what happened to Ashes of Time. I think on the whole people did not respond positively to all the intense image manipulation on Ashes––which did make it a much harder movie to sit and look at––and fans coming to Ashes of Time after the Redux have generally dismissed that film as lesser WKW.

But in terms of larger film history/cultural damage, the historical versions of the films––those are going to be killed. These new restorations are the ones that will play in revival theaters (if such a thing still exists in the future), and these are the ones that will play on television, and as people's discs succumb to rot, these are the versions they'll have to replace their old, original ones. It may take a few years, but Wong's attempt to rewrite his own artistic history will totally overwhelm what came before.

I remember reading an interview with Tran Ahn Hung from the early aughts, in which he threw shade at WKW, saying that the images in WKW movies were all well-designed but superficial, with no deeper meanings behind them. He meant this, of course, in contrast to his own movies, which is funny, because the movie he was working on at the time––I Come with the Rain––really effectively illustrates the pitfalls of relying too heavily on his "every image must have deep meaning" approach. But it is interesting to see the way Wong regards his movies now as canvasses he can rearrange at will without––he imagines––altering the meanings or effects of the movie. It makes clear the deeper observation in Tran's critique; that Wong builds movies by splicing them together, rather than creating meaning within the scene, as he shoots it, on the set. This may explain some of Wong's casual attitude towards what I think of as cultural vandalism. He created meaning by editing things together, so he can re-edit them and recapture the same magic. If some of his choices he made as a younger filmmaker embarrass him now, or simply seem too plain, or out of style, well, he can gussy them up and no one will look at his film as, say, a product of the 90s. Instead, it can be a product of today.

It reminds me of an experience I had once in an Alhambra video store which carried exclusively Hong Kong movies. I had dug into the back shelves and found a videocassette of Once Upon a Time in China––something I'd been looking for a while. An elderly man, another customer, saw that tape on top of the stack I was carrying, and took it out of my hands and placed it back on the shelf. In English he told me, "you don't want that movie; it's old." He guided me to the New Release wall and picked out Once Upon a Time in China and America, and placed that on my stack instead, telling me, "this one is new; this one is better." I tried to argue that, since I hadn't seen the first movie, I wouldn't be able to make sense enough of the sixth film in the series, but he wouldn't hear of it. He repeated that the sixth film was new, and was therefore better. I wonder if this is a mindset Wong feels, perhaps as only a subconscious insecurity, and if he is unconsciously or consciously trying to present these movies as modern, giving them more modern contrast and color timing, more modern uses of music, more modern editing. Certainly, editing in world cinema in the 90s could be characterized as gratuitous (personally, it's my favorite era for ambitious art films partly because of that willingness to stretch beyond what was tidy and efficient), and Wong's movies always seemed to slow down at some point in their duration. It sounds as if he's clipped that slow part out of Happy Together, and frankly, that just sucks. Anyways, it seems as if Wong feels free to mix and match and retool anything he chooses, which is theoretically fine, but only so long as the original versions of the work exist to compare. And the decision not to restore them in their original form kind of ensures that they won't be viewable in that original form. So the versions of the films that had cultural value in their eras will really cease to be accessible for most people.

For those fans who helped to create the WKW legend, who propped him up so he could become this kind of filmmaker, it's a huge shame that we won't be able to show these movies to people in their original forms, and continue that promulgation. Instead, we'll be making excuses, allowances for alteration, because the moments we valued in those original experiences will be different from what we saw. In a lot of cases––especially clear in Ashes of Time Redux––these alterations Wong likes to make reduce the effect of those key moments, and the result of that is that, regardless of Wong's confidence in his ability to polish and reform his own work, the aggregate feeling that makes the whole film one of quality is modified, and in some cases, totally disrupted. Honestly, if it were just retimed color or something, it wouldn't stop me from buying the box, but it increasingly sounds as if there are a thousand little cuts to be had from this new presentation, and I wouldn't be surprised if the whole character of some of the films was to be greatly altered by these new edits. Certainly, Ashes of Time was entirely altered by Wong's re-edit, and it looks as if Fallen Angels will be overwhelmingly altered as well. And it's a huge shame for someone like me, who has talked WKW to the sky for friends and acquaintances––someone who waited patiently until that elderly gentleman had left the store in order to replace OUATIC 6 on the new release shelf and then to collect the original film from where it had been removed to. I have to give up these films, in a way, resign myself to my memories and my old discs––so long as they hold out. It certainly alters my opinion of Wong Kar-Wai the artist, much in the way Star Wars fans have come to loathe George Lucas and the way he just couldn't leave his movies well enough alone.

Jack Phillips wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:25 am

Rupert Pupkin wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:06 am just a thing about "Chungking Express" : the restoration trailer is not an excerpt of the movie, but a trailer, and sometimes with Wong Kar Wai, trailers could content some different cuts or angles, even some outtakes unused (2046 trailer on the TF1/Ocean DVD is one of the best example : the movie looks like it was more focus on the tunnel, a kind of "Zone" temporal, suspended time like in "Stalker" for lovers...)

There are any number of pre-release trailers (not exclusively for WKW films) that use alternate takes or even scenes and shots completely missing from the finished film; I can't think of another example where a re-release trailer does that.

The re-release trailer is identical to the original trailer except for the title cards. Here's the same alternate take in both:

Re-release Trailer


Original Trailer


I don't think I got an exact frame match for this one because of the borked gamma on the original trailer that obliterates much of the detail, but they're clearly the same take:

Re-release Trailer


Original Trailer


Looking at the other re-release trailers, In the Mood for Love is the only film that actually got an "all-new" trailer, with a song taken from Umebayashi Shigeru's latest album. Even the Fallen Angels trailer is cut identically to the original, but with the same conversion to 2.39:1 as the restoration. This includes the aforementioned take of Karen Mok that apparently wasn't used in the actual film:

Re-release Trailer


Original Trailer


So it looks to me like Jet Tone not only restored the films but also the trailers, including whatever alternate takes were used therein. That doesn't necessarily mean those alternate takes have been edited into the actual movies, though.

Got to say, I love the idea that feihong got Amélie'd in real life over their Once Upon A Time In China purchasing decisions!

feihong's comment on Tran Ahn Hung also makes me wonder if there is a good quality version of Cyclo out there.

The Fanciful Norwegian wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:37 am

Jack Phillips wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:25 am

Rupert Pupkin wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:06 am just a thing about "Chungking Express" : the restoration trailer is not an excerpt of the movie, but a trailer, and sometimes with Wong Kar Wai, trailers could content some different cuts or angles, even some outtakes unused (2046 trailer on the TF1/Ocean DVD is one of the best example : the movie looks like it was more focus on the tunnel, a kind of "Zone" temporal, suspended time like in "Stalker" for lovers...)

There are any number of pre-release trailers (not exclusively for WKW films) that use alternate takes or even scenes and shots completely missing from the finished film; I can't think of another example where a re-release trailer does that.

The re-release trailer is identical to the original trailer except for the title cards. Here's the same alternate take in both:

I don't think I got an exact frame match for this one because of the borked gamma on the original trailer that obliterates much of the detail, but they're clearly the same take:

Looking at the other re-release trailers, In the Mood for Love is the only film that actually got an "all-new" trailer, with a song taken from Umebayashi Shigeru's latest album. Even the Fallen Angels trailer is cut identically to the original, but with the same conversion to 2.39:1 as the restoration. This includes the aforementioned take of Karen Mok that apparently wasn't used in the actual film:

So it looks to me like Jet Tone not only restored the films but also the trailers, including whatever alternate takes were used therein. That doesn't necessarily mean those alternate takes have been edited into the actual movies, though.

Wow thank you!! Do you think the shorter Hong Kong cut contains these takes from the original trailer?? If so, then this is very interesting. Maybe for the new restoration, they used the takes from the 98 min HK cut and plugged them into the 102 min international cut. Sort've creating a hybrid of the two. I don't own access to the 98 min HK cut, but I'll see if I can somehow find clips from it through alternative channels. Edit: I guess I don't have any real reason to believe that the HK version would use the alternate takes. It probably just has less footage.

Also, maybe this explains the differences between the HK cut of Fallen Angels and the international cuts. I still don't know if there was any additional footage added to the international ones.

colinr0380 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:41 pm Got to say, I love the idea that feihong got Amélie'd in real life over their Once Upon A Time In China purchasing decisions!

It was just a rental, too. The stakes were lowwww. It was a funny shop, though. They had bookshelves lining the place, and the videocassettes were stacked two rows deep in each shelf. The tapes in the 2nd row behind had nothing to do with the tapes in front, so you had to go through all the rows, lifting out the tapes in front to see what was behind them. As the guy running the shop introduced it to me, he pointed out that there were two rows of Jackie Chan tapes, 2 rows of Chow Yun-Fat tapes, 1 row of Jet Li, 1 row of Andy Lau, and then the guy whirled around and gestured "and here's the rest of the store." The rest of the tapes were just pell-mell. I used to sift through the tapes for hours looking for stuff. They did have a new release section, and at the time I started renting from them Fallen Angels was a new release. Later on they had an unmarked tape containing Happy Together, which they kept hidden behind the counter. You could ask for it and rent it, but they were afraid to advertise it. That was hard to navigate at the time, because there was an earlier Cherie Chung movie called Happy Together that they did have, which was all I could find until I figured out that Happy Together was hidden. Everything that was a box-office hit was split over 2 VHS tapes, in spite of the fact that most HK movies were only 90 minutes. They would sell the tapes, but the rental time and quantity was unlimited, so I used to check out 30 tapes a week back then. So much HK cinema. I do remember buying tapes of It's Now or Never and Tsui Hark's The Blade. There was also a short-run movie house on the same block that played Hong Kong movies, but I only found out about it in '98 or '99, when they were tearing it down. If I'd known about it in its heyday I might have been able to see Ashes of Time in its original theatrical run, or The Blade. It used to haunt me.


The more I think about it, it is kind of frustrating that we get the original trailers for these WKW films preserved shot-for-shot, for posterity, but not the necessarily the preserved versions of the films, themselves.