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No offence caused to me, Gregory - in fact I wish there had been more challenges to the prevailing anti-Chaplin sentiment, so will be interested to hear your thoughts...

Gregory wrote:Right now, I'm starting Homunculus and I like what I see. Maybe if Schreck, Amicus, and/or nsps stall lubitsch just a little more, I can finish watching this and put in a vote for it under the wire.

Whoops—just replied. Sorry for the delay! I was on a flight to Seattle and then had to head straight downtown to a screening/four hour Ed Norton event after my plane landed. I too am interested to watch HOMUNCULUS, but will not be able to until the weekend is over. Goodnight all!

I PM'd lubitsch last night to insert Homunculus on my list. An impressive work -- I can only wonder how great it was in its original film.

Schreck wrote me a PM that he unfortunately can't focus at the moment on the list, so here is the final result. We have 14 lists and the members voted for the "minimum 2 votes" role. Not all commented on the extra time, publishing the list means however that the temptation is quite big to fire off a decisive vote. There's still the possibility for a seperate poll for the top films.
I was a bit fussy about all this because in the end the absence of viewing experience almost decided the winner. 12 members have seen at least 27 of the 31 films I asked you about, two however haven't seen a third or more of these 31 features and these two members didn't see the second placed film which got points from everybody who saw it, while the first placed one was seen by all voters but didn't get a vote from one participant. Scharphedin's late list fixed that however. But that's why I had in between marked some films as essential viewing for everyone who wants to vote, we can debate if we shouldn't introduce this for the 20s.
In order to compensate for this I added some extra information beyond the points. For the 31 films I asked you all about I listed the number of people who voted for the film, the number of those who din't and of those who didn't see the film. And I added an average score's, dividing the points given to a film through the number on voters who did see the film in order to point out which films would have ended up probably higher if all voters had seen them.

1. Herr Arnes pengar (Mauritz Stiller, 1919) 533 points, 12 viewers, 12 votes, average score 44,42
2. Posle smerti (Yevgeni Bauer, 1915) 507, 14 viewers, 12 votes, average 36,21
3. Broken Blossoms (D.W. Griffith, 1919) 436, 14 viewers, 12 votes, average 31,14
4. Berg-Ejvind och hans hustru (Victor Sjöström, 1918) 407, 12 viewers, 11 votes, average 33,92
5. Les Vampires (Louis Feuillade, 1915) 403, 13 viewers, 11 votes, average 31
6. Intolerance (D.W. Griffith, 1916) 363, 13 viewers, 12 votes, average 27,92
7. The Sinking of the Lusitania (Winsor McCay, 1918) 351, 13 viewers, 10 votes, average 27
8. Umirayushchii lebed (Yevgeni Bauer, 1917) 349, 13 viewers, 9 votes, average 26,85
9. Regeneration (Raoul Walsh, 1915) 322, 12 viewers, 10 votes, average 26,83
10. Præsidenten (Carl Theodor Dreyer, 1919) 294, 11 viewers, 8 votes, average 26,73
11. Suspense (Lois Weber, 1913) 291, 12 viewers, 11 votes, average 24,25
12. Mest kinematograficheskogo operatora (Starewicz, 1912) 283, 14 viewers, 11 voters, average 20,21
12. Blind Husbands (Erich von Stroheim, 1919) 283, 13 viewers, 9 votes, average 21,77
14. J’Accuse (Abel Gance, 1919) 278, 12 viewers, 9 votes, average 23,17
15. Fantomas (Louis Feuillade, 1913) 269, 14 viewers, 10 votes, average 19,21
16. Panoramic View of the Morecambe Sea Front (Mitchell & Kenyon, 1901) 265, 13 viewers, 7 votes, average 20,38
17. Die Austernprinzessin (Ernst Lubitsch, 1919) 248, 12 viewers, 8 votes, average 20,67
18. Terje Vigen (Victor Sjöström, 1917) 234, 12 viewers, 7 votes, average 19,50
19. Cabiria (Giovanni Pastrone, 1914) 229, 13 viewers, 9 votes, average 17,62
20. Ingeborg Holm (Victor Sjöström, 1913) 228, 12 viewers, 8 votes, average 19
21. Hell's Hinges (William S. Hart, 1916) 227, 12 viewers, 8 votes, average 18,92
22. Det hemmelighedsfulde X (Benjamin Christensen, 1914) 198, 10 viewers, 7 votes, average 19,8
23. The Blue Bird (Maurice Tourneur, 1918) 197, 11 viewers, 7 votes, average 17,91
24. Hypocrites (Lois Weber, 1915) 191, 11 viewers, 7 votes, average 17,36
25. Easy Street (Charles Chaplin, 1917) 187, 5 votes
25. Il Fuoco (Giovanni Pastrone, 1916) 187, 9 viewers, 8 votes, average 20,78
27. When the Clouds Roll By (Douglas Fairbanks, 1919) 184, 10 viewers, 6 votes, average 18,4
28. The Birth of a Nation (D.W. Griffith, 1915) 183, 14 viewers, 7 votes, average 13,07
29. Hævnens nat (Benjamin Christensen, 1916) 177, 6 votes
30. Ditya bolshogo goroda (Yevgeni Bauer, 1914) 176, 11 viewers, 7 votes, average 16
31. The Land beyond the Sunset (Edison, 1912) 173, 13 viewers, 6 votes, average 13,31
32. Le voyage dans la lune (Georges Melies, 1902) 171, 14 viewers, 8 votes, average 12,21
33. Die Puppe (Ernst Lubitsch, 1919) 170, 5 votes
34. Gryozy (Yevgeni Bauer, 1915) 167, 12 viewers, 7 votes, average 13,92
35. The ? Motorist (R.W. Paul, 1906) 165, 12 viewers, 5 votes, average 13,75
36. The Italian (Reginald Barker, 1915) 157, 5 votes
37. New York Subway (G.W. Bitzer, 1905) 149, 5 votes
38. Za schastem (Yevgeni Bauer, 1917) 140, 4 votes
39. Sumerki zhenskoi dushi (Yevgeni Bauer, 1913) 139, 5 votes
40. The Passer-By (Edison, 1912) 134, 6 votes
41. L’Enfant de Paris (Leonce Perret, 1913) 127, 6 votes
42. The Immigrant (Charles Chaplin, 1917) 121, 5 votes
43. Laveuses sur la rivière (Lumiere, 1897) 114, 4 votes
43. The Big Swallow (James Williamson, 1901) 114, 6 votes
45. La sortie des usines Lumière (Lumiere, 1895) 111, 3 votes
46. Bucking Broadway (John Ford, 1917) 110, 4 votes
47. Homunculus (Otto Rippert, 1916) 109, 4 votes
47. Fantasmagorie (Emile Cohl, 1908) 109, 4 votes
49. The Teddy Bears (Edison, 1907) 105, 5 votes
50. A Day in the Life of a Coal Miner (unknown, 1910) 103, 3 votes
50. The Great Train Robbery (Edwin S. Porter, 1903) 103, 4 votes
52. Ich möchte kein Mann sein (Ernst Lubitsch, 1918) 100, 3 votes
52. The Invaders (Francis Ford, 1912) 100, 4 votes
54. The Avenging Conscience (D.W. Griffith, 1914) 97, 4 votes
55. South (Frank Hurley, 1919) 89, 4 votes
56. A Dog's Life (Charles Chaplin, 1918) 88, 3 votes
57. Mobilier fidele (attributed to Bosetti or Cohl, 1910) 87, 3 votes
58. Frankenstein (Edison, 1910) 86, 2 votes
59. Die Spinnen (Fritz Lang, 1919) 85, 4 votes
60. A Lively Quarter-Day (R.W. Paul, 1906) 75, 4 votes
61. Coney Island at Night (Edwin S. Porter, 1905) 74, 3 votes
61. The Whispering Chorus (Cecil B. DeMille, 1918) 74, 3 votes
61. Cenere (Eleonora Duse, 1916) 74, 2 votes
64. Dickson Experimental Sound Film (Edison, 1894) 73, 3 votes
64. Gertie the Dinosaur (Winsor McCay, 1914) 73, 4 votes
66. Le mystère des roches de Kador (Leonce Perret, 1912) 72, 3 votes
67. Indochina: Children Gathering Rice Scattered by Western Women (Lumiere, ?) 71, 2 votes
68. The Wishing Ring (Maurice Tourneur, 1914) 69, 3 votes
69. A Chess Dispute (R.W. Paul, 1903) 68, 3 votes
70. Life of an American Fireman (Edwin S. Porter, 1903) 67, 4 votes
71. Gretchen the Greenhorn (Sidney Franklin, 1916) 65, 3 votes
72. Monkeyshines No. 1 (Edison, 1890) 63, 3 votes
72. Judex (Louis Feuillade, 1916) 63, 2 votes
74. Départ de Jérusalem en chemin de fer (Lumiere, 1897) 62, 2 votes
74. Where are my Children? (Lois Weber, 1916) 62, 2 votes
76. From Leadville to Aspen: A Hold-Up in the Rockies (Biograph, 1906) 61, 3 votes
76. A Corner in Wheat (D.W. Griffith, 1909) 61, 3 votes
76. Civilization (Thomas H. Ince, 1916) 61, 4 votes
79. Le printemps (Louis Feuillade, 1909) 60, 2 votes
79. Tram Ride into Halifax (Mitchell & Kenyon) 60, 2 votes
81. Serpentine Dance (Japanese Lumiere set) 58, 2 votes
82. Afgrunden (Urban Gad, 1910) 55, 2 votes
83. Rapsodia satanica (Nino Oxilia, 1915) 53, 2 votes
84. One A.M. (Charles Chaplin, 1916) 51, 3 votes
84. Figures de cire (Maurice Tourneur, 1914) 51, 3 votes
85. Der Student von Prag (Stellan Rye, 1913) 50, 2 votes
85. The Courage of the Commonplace (Vitagraph, 1913) 50, 3 votes
87. The Cook (Roscoe Arbuckle, 1918) 49, 2 votes
88. Indochina: Panorama Taken from a Rickshaw (Lumiere, ?) 48, 2 votes
89. Mary Jane's Mishap (G.A. Smith, 1903) 48, 2 votes
90. The Painted Lady (D.W. Griffith, 1912) 48, 2 votes
91. The Airship Destroyer (Walter R. Booth, 1909) 47, 2 votes
92. Skyscrapers of New York from North River (Edison, 1903) 46, 2 votes
92. The Mystery of the Leaping Fish (Douglas Fairbanks, 1916) 46, 3 votes
92. The Cheat (Cecil B. DeMille, 1915) 46, 2 votes
95. Victory (Maurice Tourneur, 1919) 45, 3 votes
96. A Desperate Poaching Affray (William Haggar, 1903) 40, 2 votes
96. Revolyutsioner (Yevgeni Bauer, 1917) 40, 2 votes
96. Ask Father (Harold Lloyd, 1919) 40, 2 votes
96. La vie du Christ (Alice Guy, 1906) 40, 2 votes
100. The Country Doctor (D.W. Griffith, 1909) 39, 2 votes

Thank you, Lubitsch. Interesting list and I have quite a few darlings to defend, it seems.

Two suggestions for a slight update, at least when the list is re-published in the official Masterlists thread: first, please number the films, that makes it so much easier to see where a particular film was placed. Second, I would strongly suggest that you give the English titles of the Bauer films as well; I'm pretty sure I was not the only one who had to spent some time at imdb to find out which film was which. To save others the trouble, here they are in order appearance:

Posle smerti = After Death
Umirayushchii lebed = The Dying Swan
Ditya bolshogo goroda = A Child of the Big City
Gryozy = Daydreams
Za schastem = For happiness
Sumerki zhesnkoi dushi = Twilight of a woman's soul

lubitsch wrote:I was a bit fussy about all this because in the end the absence of viewing experience decided the winner.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to think about the final list in terms of winners and losers. Of course we're all going to wish that certain films had placed higher (or lower, as the case may be), or that some had made it onto the list at all, and the viewing experience of the participants is factor here. However, given that one's viewing experience is not simply a function of one's desires--availability, money and time each play a role as well--I don't see this problem going away anytime soon, for this or any other leg of the lists project. Sure, Sir Arne's Treasure might have placed at #1 had everyone seen it, but it just as well might not have. More interesting to me is the fact that Sir Arne is nowhere to be found on the final tally of the first two iterations of the "Silent Era" list . . . and now it lands at #2. That's a hell of a debut! Same for the films by Bauer, Christensen, Tourneur, Weber, etc., etc., that are new to the list. There are no winners or losers here.

Tommaso wrote:Thank you, Lubitsch. Interesting list and I have quite a few darlings to defend, it seems.
Two suggestions for a slight update, at least when the list is re-published in the official Masterlists thread: first, please number the films, that makes it so much easier to see where a particular film was placed. Second, I would strongly suggest that you give the English titles of the Bauer films as well; I'm pretty sure I was not the only one who had to spent some time at imdb to find out which film was which.

I have quite a lot of darlings, too. Chaplin's The Cure anyone????
The placings and the English titles I left off because I wanted to give some space between the titles and the points and hadn't the room anymore but the forum simply erases the empty space, so I'll add the information with my update. Though I think it's a nice educational measure if the voters have to familiarize themselves with the original titles of their darling Yevgeni Bauer.

Some remarks:
Sir Arne's Treasure is the only film which everyone voted for who saw it. If the two useres who haven't seen it would have voted for it it would have probably easily caught After Death because only two voters placed it lower than 12th place in their rankings (a 19th and a 22nd place). It is also the only film to be nominated as the best film by more than one user, thre participants thought it the best film of the era.
Broken Blossoms, Les Vampires and Berg-Ejvind och hans hustru form a second core group with an average score of ca. 30 points.
Then we have a group with 25 average score and one with 20 points. The Danish films suffered a bit from their lesser distribution, Dreyer's President and Christensen's Mysterious X might have ended up a bit higher with more viewers.
The losers are some classics from film history textbooks. Cabiria didn't draw much interest, Melies' reputation seems to have suffered (due to the exhausting watching of the box?), The Birth of a Nation is a (relic of its time). The biggest shock for me was however the placing of Chaplin. There was a bit of vote splitting, so a few high scores were wasted on films like The Rounders, Behind the Screen or The Count, but frankly I'm wondering what caused this result where no Chaplin film could attract more than 5 votes. Personally I'm disappointed with the rather low scores for the films of Tourneur and i thought Lubitsch could break into the top 10.

Generally however this list is a far more useful guide than the previous efforts or other lists floating on the internet because the lists at silentera or films101 take into account a higher and much earlier availability of the more popular classics like Griffith and Chaplin. Obviously the DVD shifted decisively our picture of the era, the DFI, the SFI, the people who rescued Bauer from oblivion as well as the compilers of all these early movies collections can congratulate themselves for their work.

lubitsch wrote: Though I think it's a nice educational measure if the voters have to familiarize themselves with the original titles of their darling Yevgeni Bauer.

So that everyone can make a fool of himself by trying to actually pronounce them... I see.

As to "Sir Arne": although this was my No.1, too, I can't say I'm particularly sad to see it ranked only as No.2, given that it was only 'bettered' by Bauer. I guess all the films in the top 10 must be considered as being among the most shining examples of filmmaking from the period for a majority of people, even if I didn't vote for one of them at all.

lubitsch wrote: Cabiria didn't draw much interest

But it drew more interest than "Il fuoco", which is something that I'm somewhat concerned about. And I too would have liked to see more interest in Tourneur, especially as we discussed quite a number of his films in some detail here. It seems that swo's last-minute effort has at least saved "Homunculus" from obscurity, which is a good thing, and it might have ranked a little higher if Schreck had managed to send his list. With so few participants the absence of one vote can make a lot difference, probably.

Tommaso wrote:

lubitsch wrote: Cabiria didn't draw much interest

But it drew more interest than "Il fuoco", which is something that I'm somewhat concerned about.

I suppose this isn't that surprising given the greater fame and availability of Cabiria, but I quite agree: I only saw Il Fuoco at the last minute (thanks to swo's link) but it shot straight to number 8 on my list. Amazing to see how much Pastrone had developed since Cabiria (which I placed at number 10). Only two tracking shots, if I remember rightly, but they count for a lot more than most of the ones in Cabiria; and I would never have guessed that Pastrone could handle actors this well.

Great work so far lubitsch - nice to see those extra statistics - although I agree that the current list is rather punishing on the old eyes. To be honest, with only 13 participants, I'm more interested to see the individual lists, but I do think the compiled list is very encouraging.

Also, just a quick question about the 'pandas' thread: I don't mean to be dense or step on anyone's toes, but just wondered why don't we have the 'defences' here, in this thread? My understanding was that the other thread stemmed from a feeling that it was slightly bad form to 'campaign' too much for certain films, and to keep the dedicated list threads a bit tidier. But it seems like there's a lot of interesting discussion among those defences, and it would be kind of nice if it were attached to the relevant discussion thread. It seems like maybe the latter contains more proselytising than it used to... That said, if I've missed the point here, I'm more than happy to be a sad panda (if that isn't a contradiction in terms). Just a query from a relative newcomer.

I don't know the answer to your question about the separate sad-panda thread, Sloper, but I do think it's nice to have a thread that's nothing but defenses of underrated films. Maybe more of the forum will be more likely to read it and find useful leads if it's in a separate thread. Probably only those non-participants who are extremely bored at work have followed all twenty pages of this thread so far.

As for the final list, I can live with it. I think I fulfilled my viewing "duties" pretty well: from this list I've seen all but Bucking Broadway, Student of Prague, and Nerven. I now have Bucking Broadway on the Stagecoach Blu-ray and just need to get a player! Student of Prague I really should have seen by now, as a fan of horror when it's done well, but I've avoided buying the Alpha disc after hearing horrible things, including that it's considerably shorter than the most complete surviving prints. It's 41 minutes, compared to the 60-minute runtime of some VHS releases. Or was this a result of projection speed?

Reading the above discussion, I just realised that my list never reached Lubitsch... I had some trouble with the pm system, when I tried to send it last week, but I was sure that it went thorugh on a second attempt.

I have pm'ed the list to Lubitsch, and I don't know if it can be accepted at this point. If not, I will simply post it later in the Panda thread. Too bad. Even if I have not participated in the general discussion, this was a poll/project I looked forward to participating in.

Nice list! Looks like I'll have to get my hands on the non-Mad Love Bauer films. I'm a bit surprised to see Mysterious X over Blind Justice, but it goes just along with my opinion. I thought I read more people preferring the later in this topic. Of course, I wish I had participated and submitted my own list...

Scharphedin2 wrote:Reading the above discussion, I just realised that my list never reached Lubitsch... I had some trouble with the pm system, when I tried to send it last week, but I was sure that it went thorugh on a second attempt.
I have pm'ed the list to Lubitsch, and I don't know if it can be accepted at this point. If not, I will simply post it later in the Panda thread. Too bad. Even if I have not participated in the general discussion, this was a poll/project I looked forward to participating in.

I never received a list from Scharphedin, therefore never mailed him back for questions since he wasn't among the people I guessed would send a list. We all know him however as a good member of this board and he promised me that he didn't touch his list, so he would be the second person you have to trust (apart from me) in not using the results for some vote manipulation. Obviously every additional list by a knowledgeable film lover would make our project more valuable, so I'd be willing to count his vote and recalculate the list. Well, folks any opinion on this?

I agree with what you've said. Please go ahead and count it.

Yes, please accept Scharp's list.

I'll third the motion to accept Scharp's list.

Yeah he's been greatly missed on this thread, would be good to have his input.

:-"

Fifthed on Scharphedin!

Also, on the Bauers, wouldn't it be a nicer educational measure to learn the original Cyrillic titles?

After Death = После смерти
Child of the Big City = Дитя большого города
Daydreams = Грезы
The Dying Swan = Умирающій лебедь
For Happiness = За счастьем
Twilight of a Woman's Soul = Сумерки женcкoи души

Saturnome wrote:Nice list! Looks like I'll have to get my hands on the non-Mad Love Bauer films.

You may already be aware, but the Early Russian Cinema discs are still available here.
However, with these and the three on Mad Love, most of the 26 extant Bauers are still unaccounted for. I wonder if Gosfilmofond possibly, in conjunction with the BFI or Milestone, will ever remedy that.

I am surprised a couple of my darlings didn't make the list. I had The Life Story of David Lloyd George as my number 1, and The Land Beyond The Sunset in my top 5, and The Cheat in my top 10, but none made the list. Interesting. Anyone else experience similar results?

myrnaloyisdope wrote:I am surprised a couple of my darlings didn't make the list. I had The Life Story of David Lloyd George as my number 1, and The Land Beyond The Sunset in my top 5, and The Cheat in my top 10, but none made the list. Interesting. Anyone else experience similar results?

The Land Beyond the Sunset made the list:

28. The Land beyond the Sunset (Edison, 1912) 173, 12 viewers, 6 votes, average 14,42

Oh, sorry I missed that.

Ok, I recalculated the list with Scharphedin's list and we have a new winner \:D/

myrnaloyisdope wrote:I am surprised a couple of my darlings didn't make the list. I had The Life Story of David Lloyd George as my number 1,

You're the only participant whose Number 1 film didn't find a supporter, with the rule I proposed it would have scored at 85th place. However other individual darlings films also bombed out without any support from the other users, but would have scored otherwise

Deti veka (Yevgeni Bauer, 1915) 49 points
Kärlek och journalistik (Mauritz Stiller, 1916) 48
Behind the Screen (Charles Chaplin, 1916) 47
Prinsengracht (unknown) 46
Otets Sergiy (Yakov Protazanov, 1917) 46
Tram Rides through Nottingham (Mitchell & Kenyon) 45
The Golden Chance (Cecil B. DeMille, 1915) 44 ](*,)
Work (Charles Chaplin, 1916) 43
Morecambe Church Lads' Parade at Drill (Mitchell & Kenyon, 1901) 43
The Floorwalker (Charles Chaplin, 1916) 42
Nemye svideteli (YXevgeni Bauer, 1914) 42
The Cure (Charles Chaplin, 1917) 41 ](*,)
Blackpool Victoria Pier (Mitchell & Kenyon, 1904) 41
Barbe-bleue (Georges Melies, 1901) 40
La peine du talion (Gaston Velle, 1906) 40
Panorama Motor Room, Westinghouse Works (G.W. Bitzer, 1904) 40
A Visit to Peek Frean & Co.’s Biscuit Works (unknown, 1906) 39

I Sixth-or-seventh that Scharphedin be counted.

While some are lamenting Chaplin's poor showing, at least he made the list, which is more than can be said for Arbuckle, who made some incredibly inventive two-reelers during the era while training the greatest filmmaker of all time . Was it a matter of people picking different films, or did he just not earn many votes? It might be interesting to see a list of how the directors ranked as well (I'm sure Bauer would still top that one.) UPDATE: Either I missed THE COOK earlier or Scharp got it on the list!

Also, why is "When the Clouds Roll By" credited to Fairbanks? I've seen him listed as an uncredited co-director on the film, but I'd never heard that Flemming was director in name only. What's the deal?

As for Melies, I think Lubitsch may be right about fatigue, but that's not the only factor. Watching his work in chunks reveals how repetitive he was. It really gets a bit tedious after a while. Regardless, I tried to judge his best films on their own merit rather than ranking them as a whole, and I found other magic/effects films like "The ? Motorist" to be more fun, free-wheeling and satisfying. "The Mermaid" was the only Melies film to make my list. "A Trip to the Moon" has been a film school stable for years, but that alone was no reason to vote for it. I rewatched it with a lot of other early works before delving into the Melies box, and it just wasn't in my personal top 50. It is one of the films I referenced earlier that would make my list of historically important works, but not my best-of list.

lubitsch, will you be posting a list of "also rans"? This would just be a list of all the films that received at least 2 votes but didn't place in the top 100. This is helpful so that if a film you voted for didn't make the top 100, you can at least know whether or not anyone else voted for it.

Also, as far as the language used to present the titles, I think we have typically done this all in English (in fact, we were required to submit our lists in this manner), with something like Fantasmagorie being an exception, since the original title in that case is probably more familiar to everyone. There are a lot of titles on the list right now that would take an IMDb lookup for someone to know what we're talking about. While that may be a valuable exercise, I don't think this is necessarily the place for it. Our list is already alienating enough as it is (only 14 people in the entire world could make it through the project without dying of boredom)--let's not make it harder than necessary for outsiders to take a look at our results. I say either show both titles or just the English titles (with a few case-by-case exceptions) but not just the original language titles.