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Never Cursed wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 5:35 am

domino harvey wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 2:34 am Marvel has changed the title of Thunderbolts* to *the New Avengers while it’s still in theatres… this has to be a first, right?

Apparently the "new title" is in the end credits anyway, so I don't think this is any more drastic or noteworthy than the recent The Irishman/I Heard You Paint Houses issue, except as a piece of craven marketing. Surely it would be a colossal legal/guild issue to actually change the formal title of the thing.

I've always preferred the full title of the 1988 Molly Ringwald film to be I Heard You, Fresh Horses, but I'll be damned if anyone refuses to refer Blake Edwards' 10 as anything but Honk! If I'm Horny... :^o

I think this name change was part of the plan all along (I remember reading some side comment months ago about the asterisk having a specific meaning), but ... the movie is still called Thunderbolts* on IMDB, Wikipedia, Letterboxd, the theatre chain websites, etc. To paraphrase, if you change of the name of a tree in a forest, and no one acknowledges it, is it actually changed?

tenia wrote:It is a piece of marketing conceived as such, since the * at the end of the (original ?) title reflects the narrative within the movie.

I never even noticed the asterix on the title despite seeing it everywhere. Here’s hoping the general audience are more observant than me, otherwise this marketing gimmick is going to fall pretty flat. As it stands, I don’t see a Guardians of the Galaxy-esque band of misfits taking on the mantle of Avengers in the popular imagination.

I don't think it's the plan, as I don't think anyone is going to mix up Black Widow's adoptive sister, Red Guardian and a few others tertiary characters with Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk and Thor. I think it's instead akin to when, in the comic books, H.A.M.M.E.R. replaced S.H.I.E.L.D. or when supervillains paraded as superheroes as the Dark Avengers.
It'd be like the Suicide Squad being called the new JLA because of a plot within a movie (like, I don't know, the bad guys took over and the good guys are tracked by the Squad so the names are reversed to state who's in charge).

Mr Sausage wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 1:34 pm

tenia wrote:It is a piece of marketing conceived as such, since the * at the end of the (original ?) title reflects the narrative within the movie.

I never even noticed the asterix on the title despite seeing it everywhere. Here’s hoping the general audience are more observant than me, otherwise this marketing gimmick is going to fall pretty flat. As it stands, I don’t see a Guardians of the Galaxy-esque band of misfits taking on the mantle of Avengers in the popular imagination.

The movie confronts this idea at the end. Spoilering just in case:

Spoiler

Selena Meyer, ...I mean Julia Louis-Dreyfus's villainous character, reveals at the end she's rechristened them the New Avengers, which is just as surprising to the team. Then the closing credits play over some magazine covers skeptical about these actually being the "New Avengers". The post-credit scene even reveals that the new Captain America is suing over the name.

You'd almost think it's clever if not for the fact that the name is 100% a Marvel marketing gimmick to get people back in theaters to see the "Avengers" and no amount of lantern hanging justifies the choice, imo.

Isn't probably the whole narrative point of making "New" Avengers when there is an upcoming Avengers movie next year that the "New" team shows up first to fight the villain, can't do it, and then the "Real" Avengers need to show up?

Altair wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 3:57 am You're joking - is there a bigger admission of failure than this?

Nah, it's just marketing. Big part of the pre-release buzz was around the mysterious asterix at the end of the title and what it means.

What is this photo and who are these people?

It’s the cast making the shape of an asterisk.

Are you serious? It does kinda look like an asterisk. What movie? I read the last few pages of this thread and have no clue what's going on. I did finally recognize Julie and the burly annoying guy from Netflix. There's a late stage capitalism joke here somewhere.

knives wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 6:51 pm It’s the cast making the shape of an asterisk.

Dear God, it's all true and that is Florence Pugh. I am never clicking on this thread again.

Black Hat wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 7:06 pm

knives wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 6:51 pm It’s the cast making the shape of an asterisk.

Dear God, it's all true and that is Florence Pugh. I am never clicking on this thread again.

What’s wrong with Florence Pugh?

This is not even the first time Marvel has pulled this stunt. Their Disney+ TV show “Agatha All Along” was originally announced as “Agatha: House of Harkness,” then changed to “Agatha: Darkhold Diaries,” changed again to “Agatha: The Lying Witch with Great Wardrobe,” and finally revealed that it was always “Agatha All Along.” Of course, no one ever thought it was Marvel being cute and clever, just incompetent.

Anyways, this Thunderbolts/New Avengers bit is all taken from the comics. I’m just surprised they went with New Avengers when I thought they were putting together Young Avengers with Vision and Wanda’s kids Wiccan and Speed, Eli Bradley, Kate Bishop, Cassie Lang, America Chavez, and maybe Ms. Marvel. Maybe we’ll get a really fun, star-packed 3-hour legal drama where they sort this all out.

In spite of all the cynicism in this thread, anecdotally I’d observe that audiences seem to be getting along with the title joke just fine, and that the better-than-usual box office on this one reflects the strong word-of-mouth of people curious to see a semi-decent MCU film for the first time in at least a couple of years.

JamesF wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 5:29 am In spite of all the cynicism in this thread, anecdotally I’d observe that audiences seem to be getting along with the title joke just fine, and that the better-than-usual box office on this one reflects the strong word-of-mouth of people curious to see a semi-decent MCU film for the first time in at least a couple of years.

Audience reaction among the usual Marvel crowd (and Marvel skeptical critics who can seemingly put aside their usual critiques because they love Pugh) has definitely been positive, but the box office is solidly in “pretty okay” territory. It underperformed the awful new Captain America movie in its opening weekend and it’s on the lower end of Marvel opening weekends in general. It seems word of mouth is good and there’s a million factors in determining box office success, but I don’t think we’re at “better than usual” quite yet. I mean even after all the great reviews, it still only landed about where it was tracking before the review embargo lifted.

Disclaimer: This is all based on US box office. International looks about the same, but haven’t done a deep dive, so it might be doing better worldwide.

My personal opinion is that this is getting overpraised because it’s the first decent Marvel project in a a couple years. I’m open to enjoying these movies for what they are (I think I’ve only missed 2 or 3), but I found this very much in the middle of the pack. Personally, it feels like an average Phase 2 movie with a clunky mental health through-line that gives it the contours of depth without actually offering anything other than generic platitudes. Sebastian Stan is great in a pretty limited role though!

JamesF wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 5:29 amIn spite of all the cynicism in this thread, anecdotally I’d observe that audiences seem to be getting along with the title joke just fine

Just to make sure I'm phrasing my point correctly : I'm fairly certain this is indeed an in-joke more than a IRL marketing ploy. The movie seems to be narratively riffing on a common trope within the Marvel universe (eg with the X-Men), and I doubt future Thunderbolts movies will actually be marketed as if they were Avengers movies.

TechnicolorAcid wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 7:30 pm

Black Hat wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 7:06 pm

knives wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 6:51 pm It’s the cast making the shape of an asterisk.

Dear God, it's all true and that is Florence Pugh. I am never clicking on this thread again.

What’s wrong with Florence Pugh?

Nothing at all, just didn't recognize her.

JamesF wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 5:29 am In spite of all the cynicism in this thread, anecdotally I’d observe that audiences seem to be getting along with the title joke just fine, and that the better-than-usual box office on this one reflects the strong word-of-mouth of people curious to see a semi-decent MCU film for the first time in at least a couple of years.

In a related story NYMag published a piece today on a generation of kids being illiterate

Matt wrote: Fri Mar 28, 2025 1:05 am

dx23 wrote: Thu Mar 27, 2025 8:30 pmI'm guessing Fantastic Four in June stars everything that's going to happen with the MCU over the next 3 years.

It introduces (in a post-credits scene, apparently) Doctor Doom, who is the emergency replacement for Kang in the MCU. Doomsday is supposed to be the beginning of the finale of Phase Six and the whole Multiverse Saga that's been dragging Marvel down for four years now and yet will crawl on for another two years.

And they're also expected to have an as-yet unannounced film out in 11 months?

That as-yet unannounced film that was supposed to be out on February 13 of next year? Gone from the schedule. Avengers: Doomsday ? Bumped from May 1, 2026 to December 18, 2026 with Avengers: Secret Wars correspondingly moving from May 7, 2027 to December 17, 2027.

Also two dates earmarked for "Untitled Marvel" November 6, 2026 and November 5, 2027, have been reassigned to "Untitled Disney."

Disney CEO Bob Iger admitted earlier this month that Marvel had gone a little overboard with projects, focusing on quantity over quality.

I would guess that Armor Wars, a movie no one except Don Cheadle wanted, is probably kaput, and though the first one did well, I can't really imagine that the world is crying out for a Shang-Chi sequel either. It's also been clear for a while that the Blade reboot is never happening.

On the Sony/Marvel front, the Venom series is done (but the character will probably appear in the Avengers movies). And after Morbius, Madame Web, and Kraven: The Hunter flopping, we probably won't ever be seeing anything that's not straight up Spider-Man again.

To be clear, I'm not gloating over Marvel's failures here. I saw every Marvel movie between 2008 and 2019 in the theater and enjoyed many of them and will still go to bat for Captain America: The First Avenger as one of the best adventure films of the last 20 years. But since then it's felt like a non-stop barrage of serial "content." Four films and five TV series in 2021 alone, with a pretty low quality-to-hours ratio.

Matt wrote: Fri May 23, 2025 4:34 am But since then it's felt like a non-stop barrage of serial "content." Four films and five TV series in 2021 alone, with a pretty low quality-to-hours ratio.

I think 2021 was an anomaly but bad decisions were made due to their Endgame success, the pandemic and the Disney+ arriving. This is where the word "content" became another corporate bullshit industry jargon, which whole mantra was to fill hours for streaming and social media. Since then viewer habits have changed, with people willing to wait for movies to arrive on the streaming services instead of overspending for popcorn and drink at the movie theater. This doesn't mean that every project Marvel has done since Endgame has been good, but they aren't as bad as the incel fandom makes it to be.

I don't see any of what Marvel has done on TV as different as what Disney did during the 80's and 90's of expanding their brand to cable, especially to Saturday morning and weekday afternoon cartoons. Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers was completely different that any previous Chip & Dale cartoon. Talespin didn't hurt Jungle Book or Robin Hood. The problem Disney has now is fucking Trump and his incel army. These imbeciles have been brainwashed to hate anything Disney/Marvel/Star Wars because of "woke". Perfect example is IronHeart. Honestly, the show is all over the place and after the first 4 episodes, I can tell you is not one of my favorites. But instead of just marking it up as just a show that isn't my taste, these incels have gone out and review bombed it because it features a black female character as the lead, who says that Tony Star wouldn't be anything if he wasn't a billionaire and has one character that is trans. This same show done 20 years ago would have been just another Marvel show, but now because of these right wing incels, it's another Marvel huge failure because of "woke". I read that the last 2 episodes things get better and judging by the 3rd and 4th episode, this seems to be the case, but Disney needs to fight back at this incel perception. Already FF is getting attacked because it features a female Silver Surfer and apparently gives Sue Storm "too much screen time" according to these people who haven't seen one minute of the film. Disney PR needs to get as strong as their legal side and put s stop to this defaming bullshit. I remember when the best Marvel films we could get were the Bill Bixby Hulk TV movies. We are far beyond that. I want to enjoy the ride but these incels are trying to kill the rollercoaster.

Ironheart ended with a bang and after it's slow start, it got much better with the last 3 episodes. One of the things I like about these type of shows is how they expand on the Marvel lore, new and old.

Spoiler

Sasha Baron Cohen played Mephisto to perfection. We finally got the devil and it was worth the wait.
Love the introduction of Strange Academy through with the Zelma character
Looking forward to seeing more of Zeke Stane and The Hood, both intriguing new characters from the past 25 years.

Somewhat of a huge surprise to hear that John Malkovich got completely cut from the Fantastic Four film. He was supposed to be the Red Ghost, a lesser known villain in the Marvel Universe who debuted in issue #13 of the series during the silver age. The film apparently has been streamlined to be the FF vs Galactus and Silver Surfer, and the fallout that leads them to the MCU.

Maybe not a bad idea considering the main complaint about the new Superman is that it features too many super-powered characters.

I think James Gunn is bringing a comics approach to cinema, and the sense of picking up a random issue and catching up with the characters and the plot as you go. My first ever issue of X-Men was #108 (also John Byrne’s first), and that is the end of an interplanetary storyline with over 30 characters in play. The first Star Wars does the same thing.

The difference of course is that comics come along monthly, while you have to wait years between movie franchise instalments.

Thunderbolts is actually pretty decent! Certainly the best live-action Marvel movie since Spider-Man: Far From Home for me. It has a good script and good cast, and I think it's really helped by the stakes for this film being low: none of these characters are main-line heroes, and they're all just—as Florence Pugh's Yelena makes reference to—punch-and-shoot characters. And the climax is not the tiresome CGI soup we usually get from Marvel but something thoughtful that owes more than a little to Michel Gondry. Also, apart from a couple references to Captain America: Brave New World and The Fantastic Four: First Steps (the films immediately preceding and following it) the film isn't any kind of linchpin for "Phase Five" or the MCU as a whole.

It does seem to suffer from a shrunken budget—many scenes seem to have been filmed on standing sets or sparsely decorated soundstages—but maybe that helped shield the production from too much studio interference.

Spoiler

And the one-scene, one-line presence of Olga Kurylenko as Taskmaster feels a little ridiculous. It seems the filmmakers wanted to show how there was no guarantee that any of the characters would survive the film, but come on... She was already a fairly useless appendage in Black Widow and then is brought back 5 years later just to die in the first 15 minutes.

New Spider-Man: Brand New Day trailer is out. Apparently they are using some of the most controversially stupid Spider-Man comic book storylines as source material, including The Other, besides the Brand New Day one. Lots of characters in this one too, including Punisher, Hulk/Bruce Banner, Scorpion, Tarantula, The Hand, Damage Control, plus an invisible villain that may or may not be Mr. Negative.