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Matt wrote:Related to that question: The Flashdance/Footloose conundrum. I understand the "vote for it" principle, but are we considering films in which characters dance but do not sing in several discrete, choreographed musical numbers eligible?

Careful there. You're trying to rule out the entire Flamenco Trilogy. (Well, off hand I think that I remember vocals in one number of Carmen.)

On the opposite end, I also would not exclude entirely sung movies (like a few of the Demy films or few of the rock opera adaptations) from the "musical genre".

My question would come with some of the "taped stage shows" that have been broadcast and / or released on home video over the years, for example Into the Woods.

Filmed performances are not musicals using the Altman definition

Altman book.

Seriously though once brought up the historical differences between a musical and an opera makes the exclusion of the Demy films logical.

I certainly hope that the original Hairspray is eligible! And The Harder They Come! I think my criteria for inclusion is whether the music has an important part to play in the film, sung or not, and Hairspray is one of those films where the pure joy of music overcomes all. And since I doubt we will be doing a separate Opera List Project, I'll try and fit in Umbrellas of Cherbourg somewhere!

This is a guilty pleasure but I'll certainly be voting for Richard Lester's film version of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way To The Forum. I think it utilises Michael Crawford better than the later Hello, Dolly! does (i.e. it incorporates his talents for slapstick later put to such good use in Some Mothers Do 'ave 'em). Though I have the feeling that domino might not approve of some of the gender politics therein!

domino, just so we're all on the same page, are films like Umbrellas of Cherbourg that fail to meet certain elements of the Altman definition completely ineligible (like people shouldn't vote for them and if they do, you won't count the votes) or merely frowned upon, but the "vote for it" rule determines eligibility?

I believe I said that while Altman refuses to count Umbrellas or Disney musicals, I will not be so extreme, so long as it meets the other guidelines

colinr0380 wrote:I certainly hope that the original Hairspray is eligible! And The Harder They Come! :

As one of my all-time favourites, The Harder They Come would be in my Top 5, if I could vote for it. Given that 'Wild Style' is categorized as a 'folk musical' in Altman's list, I wonder why the Jamaican film shouldn't be entitled to be voted for.

Well, anyway, colin mentioning the probable eligibility of 'THTC' made my order Altman's book at the local library ...

Edit: 'The Harder They Come' is listed in Hillier and Pye's '100 Film Musicals', so there can be no doubt about its eligibility, right?

colinr0380 wrote: This is a guilty pleasure but I'll certainly be voting for Richard Lester's film version of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way To The Forum. I think it utilises Michael Crawford better than the later Hello, Dolly! does (i.e. it incorporates his talents for slapstick later put to such good use in Some Mothers Do 'ave 'em). Though I have the feeling that domino might not approve of some of the gender politics therein!

It's a rather guiltless pleasure for me though I admit that it's far from Lester's best film.

I should add that if it were a pure comedy list then Frankie Howerd's Up Pompeii TV series blows Forum out of the water. Howerd had taken on Mostel's role in the UK stage version of Forum. Up Pompeii after being successful as a TV series received a feature film version in which Michael Horden played a similar role as the bumbling master as he had done in Forum, strengthening the connection (However the less said about the other 'different time period' sequels Up The Front (WW1) and Up The Chastity Belt (Medieval times), the better!) But for musical numbers Forum is still the champ!

What's the best way to get Plympton's The Tune? Is it only available in the lone DVD or is it also in one of the many boxsets.

I do like a good musical from time to time - the obvious Freed classics, Astaire, Demy, etc - but, as with Gregory, I seriously doubt I could come up with fifty favourites from any kind of genuinely comprehensive perspective (and that's without even touching on Bollywood, omg - *runs*), so will likely be sitting this one out for the most part (dom & co. can breath a sigh of relief! )

nb. I can't think of a better post-50s musical than Dancer in the Dark + claiming that The Umbrellas of Cherbourg isn't a musical is madness! For this to work at all, the definition of 'musical' surely has to stretch beyond the definition of 'classical Hollywood musical', making the "Altman definition" pretty useless.

Pennies from Heaven > Dancer in the Dark.

Needless to say, both of the major Potters will be making the near top of my list.

What about Meet Me in St. Louis? It's one of those films I never really think of as a musical although in many ways it is.

Cold Bishop wrote:What about Meet Me in St. Louis? It's one of those films I never really think of as a musical although in many ways it is.

It never occurred to me that this could be construed as a non-musical (and it's almost certainly in my top ten).

Which reminds me that the OOP R1 Garland Signature Collection is currently available at the ridiculous price of 9.99 at amazon.co.uk (8 quid if you're outside the EU). The only difference is that the UK version lacks The Wizard of Oz, which most folk would likely have anyway. Two strong contenders for this list are included: Me and My Gal and The Harvey Girls - plus A Star Is Born, if you're so inclined, and three others).

I think its because, other than the "Trolley Song", all the numbers are so grounded in the reality (albeit, a highly romanticized version of reality) of rituals and celebration that they never feel like "musical numbers", that is, they never feel like a break from the conventional dramatic narrative that musical numbers usually do.

In some ways, its a more classical version of what Terrence Davies does in Distant Voices, Still Lives. Now, is that a musical?

I'm not trying to argue its not a musical, its simply a film that I never ever think of as one until I'm actually sitting down watching it, where I always have an "aha!" moment.

I haven't seen any of them since I was ten so could someone with a stronger memory vouch for is any of the Peanuts movies were musicals?

Hell yeah, Meet Me in St. Louis is at least Top 3 (with The Band Wagon and Dancer in the Dark!)

Just curious, but what about something likeThe Tales of Hoffmann? If Cherbourg is eligible, I'd assume that that film would be also, right?

I'm not very well-versed in musicals outside of the most popular ones (loved Rogers and Hammerstein when I was five, don't judge me!), so it might be fun to expand my knowledge of the genre. Even if I don't submit a list I'd love to hear what everyone's favorites are. As a bit of a crossover with the 30s project, I'd throw some support behind Love Me Tonight which charmed me from its opening moments, when the sounds of a Parisian morning turn into a uniformed melody. Or the rendition of "Isn't it Romantic?" that spreads like a jovial virus from person to person. The film never seems to lose the energy it has in these opening moments and is constantly cracking jokes. I was surprisingly charmed and its my favorite of the Chevalier/MacDonald musicals. I imagine this film isn't unknown to posters here though.

As for Meet Me in St. Louis: This was a film I was resistant to seeing for a while, and when I finally saw it, I wondered why I waited so long.

Imho, if it has two or more musical sequences that break the fourth wall then its a musical.

knives wrote:I haven't seen any of them since I was ten so could someone with a stronger memory vouch for is any of the Peanuts movies were musicals?

None of these are feature length, are they?

sinemadelisikiz wrote:Just curious, but what about something likeThe Tales of Hoffmann? If Cherbourg is eligible, I'd assume that that film would be also, right?

I don't think the idea here is to put forth a film that you think is a stretch and ask if it's eligible, but rather, if something feels like a musical to you but might not to others, you can say "I think this is a musical and here's why." Maybe you get support from others and maybe you don't. If no one else seems to be buying it, it's up to you whether you ultimately vote for it (and risk throwing a vote away) or place something else on your list that stands a better chance. Anything that's feature length and has a narrative is technically eligible but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a musical. That's a question you need to answer for yourself.

swo17 wrote:

knives wrote:I haven't seen any of them since I was ten so could someone with a stronger memory vouch for is any of the Peanuts movies were musicals?

None of these are feature length, are they?

I think they were usually 45 minutes which for me is feature. On a side note as a Potter ignorant are the American discs cool and is this set relevant to the list?

I haven't seen them but there were apparently film adaptations of the Broadway musicals You're a Good Man Charlie Brown and Snoopy the Musical that were feature length. Those sure sound like musicals to me.

Also, since something being feature length or not determines eligibility, we should all be on the same page about this. I believe feature length is commonly defined as at least 40 minutes, yes?

I'll take MichaelB's argument and say three reels.

Well what matters is how domino defines feature length, since he's the one that won't be counting votes for films that he doesn't consider to be long enough.

40 minutes

So excited for this. Provisional ten:

Love Me Tonight (Mamoulian, 1932)
Cabin in the Sky (Minnelli, 1943)
Rock-A-Bye Baby (Tashlin, 1958)
Singin' in the Rain (Donen & Kelly, 1952)
Up, Down, Fragile (Rivette, 1995)
Top Hat (Sandrich, 1935)
Popeye (Altman, 1980)
Hallelujah, I’m a Bum! (Milestone, 1933)
Dames (Enright & Berkeley, 1934)
Yolanda and the Thief (Minnelli, 1945)

I plan on eagerly following domino's trail of musical breadcrumbs; My Sister Eileen is up first