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sevenarts wrote:Count me in for the Mann, no matter what it costs. Now we just need good discs for Reign of Terror and Man of the West and I'll be happy.

If Criterion actually wanted to, they could easily release a disc of Reign of Terror. Not only is the film public domain, but the source elements appear to be in excellent condition.

I'm sorry, but the whole idea of Anthony Mann not being 'worthy' of an upper-tier Criterion release, or being somehow more marginal a director than Dusan Makavejev or Stuart Cooper, is ridiculous. I don't recall this kind of patronising response to Ace in the Hole (and frankly I think Mann is a bigger gap in the 'collection' than Wilder was) . Did I check into the wrong forum or something?

zedz wrote:I'm sorry, but the whole idea of Anthony Mann not being 'worthy' of an upper-tier Criterion release, or being somehow more marginal a director than Dusan Makavejev or Stuart Cooper, is ridiculous. I don't recall this kind of patronising response to Ace in the Hole (and frankly I think Mann is a bigger gap in the 'collection' than Wilder was) . Did I check into the wrong forum or something?

Who said Mann wasn't "worthy"? My fear is that an upper-tier release will doom any enterprise to release other Westerns and/or other Mann titles (if indeed Criterion has such intentions a la Dassin) if only because of the cost of the disc and the general obscurity of the title (at least in comparison to Wilder's Ace in the Hole). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that a Western (and an Anthony Mann Western to boot!) is coming to Criterion, but I would love to see some other Mann titles too...

Well zedz, it didn't take long to actually get an answer to your question (Holy shit! This guy is nuts!)...

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GringoTex wrote:

Cinema Patron wrote:"So, how much is Anthony Mann worth?"

A lot more than Ang Lee and Alex Cox.

The Ice Storm, which is a middling film undeserving of a Criterion release, is still of more merit than Mann's entire body of work.

Donald Brown wrote:The Ice Storm, which is a middling film undeserving of a Criterion release, is still of more merit than Mann's entire body of work.

And the fight begins.

arsonfilms wrote:

Donald Brown wrote:The Ice Storm, which is a middling film undeserving of a Criterion release, is still of more merit than Mann's entire body of work.

And the fight begins.

I don't know about Tex, but I don't fight no cripples.

Via_Chicago wrote:Who said Mann wasn't "worthy"? My fear is that an upper-tier release will doom any enterprise to release other Westerns and/or other Mann titles (if indeed Criterion has such intentions a la Dassin) if only because of the cost of the disc and the general obscurity of the title (at least in comparison to Wilder's Ace in the Hole). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that a Western (and an Anthony Mann Western to boot!) is coming to Criterion, but I would love to see some other Mann titles too.

I actually think that the 'Criterionization' of Mann will aid his cause, and that of future releases. Like it or not, a splashy 2-disc Criterion release makes a statement about the prestige of a director and helps to insert him into the public consciousness, if only for a certain sector of that public. I have no idea whether or not there's a decent Mann documentary out there, but I think the bigger this release the better, if we want to see a definitive set of his noirs, say, down the line.

zedz wrote:

Via_Chicago wrote:Who said Mann wasn't "worthy"? My fear is that an upper-tier release will doom any enterprise to release other Westerns and/or other Mann titles (if indeed Criterion has such intentions a la Dassin) if only because of the cost of the disc and the general obscurity of the title (at least in comparison to Wilder's Ace in the Hole). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that a Western (and an Anthony Mann Western to boot!) is coming to Criterion, but I would love to see some other Mann titles too.

I actually think that the 'Criterionization' of Mann will aid his cause, and that of future releases. Like it or not, a splashy 2-disc Criterion release makes a statement about the prestige of a director and helps to insert him into the public consciousness, if only for a certain sector of that public. I have no idea whether or not there's a decent Mann documentary out there, but I think the bigger this release the better, if we want to see a definitive set of his noirs, say, down the line.

I'm willing to concede that point. I'm happy that someone is actually taking Mann seriously at least, especially given the mostly dire treatment many of his titles (especially those that have lapsed into the public domain) have received (especially his marvellous Reign of Terror).

No complaints about Mann from me. I'm thrilled, and I can't imagine anyone being disappointed. For me, he is one of the greats. He is part of that group of mid-century masters like Nicholas Ray and Sam Fuller that didn't get the respect they deserved until after they were gone. Of course I would have preferred Man of the West, but I'll take what I can get!

Donald Brown wrote:

GringoTex wrote:

Cinema Patron wrote:"So, how much is Anthony Mann worth?"

A lot more than Ang Lee and Alex Cox.

The Ice Storm, which is a middling film undeserving of a Criterion release, is still of more merit than Mann's entire body of work.

Dra-muuuuh!

Can we get Vegas odds on Donald Brown having seen Mann's entire body of work?

zedz wrote:I actually think that the 'Criterionization' of Mann will aid his cause, and that of future releases.

Technically, this would be the 're-Criterionization' of Mann, as Criterion released El Cid on LD over a decade ago....

Donald Brown wrote:

GringoTex wrote:

Cinema Patron wrote:"So, how much is Anthony Mann worth?"

A lot more than Ang Lee and Alex Cox.

The Ice Storm, which is a middling film undeserving of a Criterion release, is still of more merit than Mann's entire body of work.

Care to back that up, or are you just going to snipe pointlessly at the best director of Westerns Hollywood ever saw?

Bend of the River, The Man From Laramie and The Naked Spur are tough, morally engaged films that use the Western mythos as a starting point for examinations of the desire for domesticity, the link between justice and revenge, and the contrast of passiveness and aggression -- and all this while totally fulfilling the genre requirements of just being great, exciting stories.

It would be nice if Criterion really decked this disc out with special features. Compared to many of the other great directors, Mann's films have been very light on any kind of special features. I would love a Jeanine Basinger commentary, any kind of documentary, maybe a Martin Scorsese introduction. Anything really. Mann made a very distinctive and often hard boiled mark in each of the three main genres that he worked in, Film Noir, Western and later the big budget Epic. It would be nice to see some serious attention paid to Mann, considering the influence his work has had on many contemporary filmmakers since his death.

Wasn't the gorgeous The Fall of the Roman Empire pegged as a distinct possibility recently, also?

Cold Bishop wrote:Wasn't the gorgeous The Fall of the Roman Empire pegged as a distinct possibility recently, also?

I think that's supposed to come from the Weinsteins' new label, along with El Cid; pretty sure that was mentioned elsewhere hereabouts.

Very glad to see Mann entering the collection; The Furies was made the same year as Winchester 73 and Devil's Doorway, both masterpieces, so it suffers a bit by comparison, but it's still fantastic and a great stylistic/thematic bridge between Mann's noirs and westerns. Now if only Man of the West came along...

Jack Phillips wrote:

zedz wrote:I actually think that the 'Criterionization' of Mann will aid his cause, and that of future releases.

Technically, this would be the 're-Criterionization' of Mann, as Criterion released El Cid on LD over a decade ago....

Or you could argue that he's already in, via the little of SPARTACUS that he shot that remains in the film.

I agree that he's a major figure long overdue a Criterion, and that MAN OF THE WEST would have been the ideal candidate. Or imagine an Eclipse box of all the Stewart westerns!

Who's to say it's not an Eclipse set of Mann westerns-- after all, former Criterion newsletter clue were for the Bergman and Lubitsch sets

I entertained that option as well but an IMDB seach shows that his other western films were made by Universal, MGM, Columbia.

I'm interested by this title. Vaguely remember seeing it many years ago...don't remember much. A search online hasn't turned up much information about it either. Anyone has any good links they would like to provide?

sevenarts wrote:Care to back that up, or are you just going to snipe pointlessly at the best director of Westerns Hollywood ever saw?

I love Mann almost as much as the next movie buff, but it may be precisely this sort of sweeping generalization that D.B. in his misguided haste is reacting against. For instance, Ford, Hawks, and Boetticher are all at least as accomplished as Mann in the Western genre.

So I don't mean to be sniping at you, and in fact, I agree with the thrust of your post. But let's not go too far overboard.

Yes, claiming Mann is the finest ever director of Westerns is a more ridiculous exaggeration than my dismissal of his body of work. I find him to be a studio hack with no personal vision, but The Furies will be far from the worst film in the Collection. It's certainly better than anything by Alex Cox.

This "worthiness" pissing contest is embarassing. Where am I? The IMDB message boards?

tryavna wrote:

sevenarts wrote:Care to back that up, or are you just going to snipe pointlessly at the best director of Westerns Hollywood ever saw?

I love Mann almost as much as the next movie buff, but it may be precisely this sort of sweeping generalization that D.B. in his misguided haste is reacting against. For instance, Ford, Hawks, and Boetticher are all at least as accomplished as Mann in the Western genre.

So I don't mean to be sniping at you, and in fact, I agree with the thrust of your post. But let's not go too far overboard.

Yea, I knew that'd raise some hackles, it's an admitted overstatement though I stand behind it in terms of my personal opinion. I really will take Mann over any of the three you mentioned, though admittedly I've seen a more complete sampling of Mann's westerns than I have of any of those other three directors.

Calling him a "studio hack with no personal vision," now that's ridiculous. His films all have very consistent themes, ideas, characters, and ways of handling images of pain, even across different genres and with vastly different cinematographers. If you don't see a "personal vision" in his films -- whether you appreciate it or not -- you're watching them with your eyes closed.

Anyway, I'm thrilled I'll get to see The Furies now, and if it even comes close to matching up to the Stewart Westerns, it should be amazing.

"No personal vision" #-o

Poor Anthony Mann. You'd think after years of being considered one of the most underrated directors in Hollywood history, he'd finally earned due respect. Apparently not. If nothing else, Mann's Westerns are the equal of anything by Boetticher (another fine director, don't get me wrong). But he was also one of the great noir directors. He made some fine period pieces as well. And, despite his genre-hopping, his films maintain a distinct authorial voice.