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Cold Bishop wrote:I think its because, other than the "Trolley Song", all the numbers are so grounded in the reality (albeit, a highly romanticized version of reality) of rituals and celebration that they never feel like "musical numbers", that is, they never feel like a break from the conventional dramatic narrative that musical numbers usually do.

In some ways, its a more classical version of what Terrence Davies does in Distant Voices, Still Lives. Now, is that a musical?

I'm not trying to argue its not a musical, its simply a film that I never ever think of as one until I'm actually sitting down watching it, where I always have an "aha!" moment.

I would argue that given Davies' infatuation with musicals and the fact that the songs act as recitative it certainly counts. It has been described as 'as if Bresson shot Coronation street' ( along running TV soap set in a Manchester terraced street) to which you could add a light garnish of Brecht which of course reminds us that The Threepenny Opera should figure as well.

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:I would argue that given Davies' infatuation with musicals and the fact that the songs act as recitative it certainly counts.

I hadn't even thought of 'Distant Voices', but I've just pulled out the disc, had a look at it and came also to the conclusion, that it might well be considered to be a musical.

FWIW, I've also set up a provisional Top 10, which differs from Domino's and tarpilot's preliminary lists in its regional (and conceptual??) focus. So please tell me, if you think, I'm going astray.

The Harder They Come (Perry Henzell, Jamaica 1972)
Visitors on Icy Mountain (Zhao Xinshui, China 1963)
Wild Style (Charlie Ahearn, USA 1983)
White-Haired Girl (Wang Bin, China 1950)
East and West / Purab aur Pachhim (Manoj Kumar, India 1970)
Do bigha zameen /Two Acres of Land (Bimal Roy, India 1953)
Distant Voices, Still Lives (Terence Davies, UK 1988)
Dreigroschenoper /Threepenny Opera (G.W. Pabst, DR 1931)
Don (Chandra Barot, India 1978)
Tsirk /Circus (Grigorii Aleksandrov, SSSR 1936)
Dilwale Dulhania le Jayenge (Aditya Chopra, India 1995)

I regret my flamethrower language with "the only good musical made since the 60s," since I should really be saying "one of the only good musicals made since the 60s," as I haven't seen every modern musical. But alas, all I have seen are shit, with the exception of Bogdanovich's lovely At Long Last Love, which tries so hard to be a Freed musical that it hardly seems fair to count it as post-60s.

I thought you liked if not loved One From the Heart or am I imagining that.

Definitely imagined, it's every bit the disaster its reputation held

EDIT: My exact words

domino harvey wrote:

Michael wrote:Coppola's One From The Heart was mentioned somewhere here, I can't remember exactly where but is it worth checking out?

I went in with an open mind, but it really is very very bad. The set and stage design is kind of interesting but not as impressive as it should have been for what it cost-- and this is underline the only reason to even see the film. I wouldn't waste your time-- cue rampant defender of the film.

A very provisional top 10 for me, only the first four or so ranked:

Meet Me in St. Louis (Minnelli, 1944)
All That Jazz (Fosse, 1979)
Good News (Walters, 1947)
Gentlemen Prefer Blondes (Hawks, 1953)
Top Hat (Sandrich, 1935)
The Wizard of Oz (Fleming, 1939)
Footlight Parade (Bacon/Berkeley, 1933)
Sleeping Beauty (Geromini, 1959)
The Harvey Girls (Sidney, 1946)
Easter Parade (Walters, 1948)

Very MGM/Judy Garland-heavy, but that's pretty much what defines musicals for me. The lower numbers will be much more diverse, and I look forward to viewing others' suggestions and expanding my horizons.

hmmm, good news is a totally new film for me. Never heard of it before. Will have to track it down.

domino harvey wrote:Filmed performances are not musicals using the Altman definition

I'm perfectly OK with defining them as not counting as "film musicals" for the purposes of lists such as this one. However, from a purely semantic point of view, I have a hard time thinking that a Broadway musical ceases to fall under the broader heading of "musicals" when somebody points a video camera at it.

Following the sub-thread of making a case for what all one considers to be a musical:
Intuitively (to me), anything where a sufficiently large amount of the film's focus is musical *performance* (as distinct from bio-pics about musicians, which typically do not focus much at all on the performance) is inherently a "musical film". That is the definition that makes sense to me. It seems to me that separating out "operatic tradition" vs "American musical theater" vs "ballet" is a matter of separating sub-genres of "musical films" (granted some of them are much larger than others). To me, it doesn't matter whether that musical performance is singing or dancing or even instrumental (though that is sufficiently rare that I'm having trouble coming with a good example right now), they would be "musical films". It also doesn't matter to me whether the musical is inside or outside of the reality of the characters; they're still "musical films". (And, I mean, c'mon. The only-outside-reality or only-fourth-wall-breaking interpretations would define Cabaret [as one prime example] out of the "musical" genre. Does anybody seriously *not* consider Cabaret a "musical"? I'm not sure that I've ever seen it talked about without the word "musical" being prominently featured.)

Therefore, to me, Hoffman and The Red Shoes are musicals. So are all three of Saura's Flamenco Trilogy. So, too, are Cherbourg and Rochefort and Une Chambre en Ville and Tommy and Godspell.

That would leave the one question as being what exactly constitutes the level of "critical mass" for musical-ness. Movies with only exactly one song, like Rififi are clearly not musicals. However, for me, Some Like It Hot is starting to get into the grey area, and I've seen both "musical" and "non-musical" claimed for it (and I can reasonably accept either interpretation).

I seem to remember seeing an amusing documentary on the Soviet musicals to which Stalin was very partial. All singing all dancing Boy meets Girl meet Tractor affairs. I think a few might of also turned up in that movie with Tom Hulse playing Stalin's personal projectionist. Can anyone hit the buzzer on this? (MichaelB your light must surely come on!)

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:I seem to remember seeing an amusing documentary on the Soviet musicals to which Stalin was very partial. All singing all dancing Boy meets Girl meet Tractor affairs. I think a few might of also turned up in that movie with Tom Hulse playing Stalin's personal projectionist. Can anyone hit the buzzer on this? (MichaelB your light must surely come on!)

I believe the documentary was East Side Story (and the Tom Hulce movie was The Inner Circle). I'm sure there's a review of MichaelB's online somewhere - possibly for his Kinoblog...

antnield wrote:

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:I seem to remember seeing an amusing documentary on the Soviet musicals to which Stalin was very partial. All singing all dancing Boy meets Girl meet Tractor affairs. I think a few might of also turned up in that movie with Tom Hulse playing Stalin's personal projectionist. Can anyone hit the buzzer on this? (MichaelB your light must surely come on!)

I believe the documentary was East Side Story (and the Tom Hulce movie was The Inner Circle). .

Bingo.That was your starter for ten and now onto the next round..

Another possibly helpful reference for Hollywood musicals: Hollywood Musicals Year by Year (scroll down for a complete list of title links).

NABOB OF NOWHERE wrote:I seem to remember seeing an amusing documentary on the Soviet musicals to which Stalin was very partial. All singing all dancing Boy meets Girl meet Tractor affairs.

Grigori Aleksandrov's Happy Guys (a.k.a. Jolly Fellows, 1934) and Volga-Volga (1938) are the two I've seen: both are entertaining in a crude kind of way, and could be worthy of inclusion in some people's lists. While the majority of great musicals may have been made in Hollywood, it's certainly worth looking beyond that territory.

I hope to get Aleksandrov's Jolly Fellows and Volga-Volga on DVD tomorrow, as I wanted to have a look at them for the 30s list, too. Btw, I frankly admit, that Circus is not dazzling in relation to aesthetics, at least not, if you have to resort to Mosfilm's Youtube channel, but I had a lot of fun watching it some days ago. And I absolutely loved the racist German circus manager. Apart from that, it's an interesting, though in no way satisfying take on racism and internationalism (and gender) and, at least in my opinion, offers some powerful musical sequences.

Btw, I can't find Rimgaila Salys' monograph on Aleksandrov (The Musical Comedy Films of Gregorii Aleksandrov) in no local library. Can anyone recommend the book?

domino harvey wrote:Definitely imagined, it's every bit the disaster its reputation held

EDIT: My exact words

domino harvey wrote:

Michael wrote:Coppola's One From The Heart was mentioned somewhere here, I can't remember exactly where but is it worth checking out?

I went in with an open mind, but it really is very very bad. The set and stage design is kind of interesting but not as impressive as it should have been for what it cost-- and this is underline the only reason to even see the film. I wouldn't waste your time-- cue rampant defender of the film.

Too bad, and I was considering using part of next paycheck for that and New York, New York (which has to be at least compelling awful). I guess I'll be getting the Sinatra and Kelly set instead.

Not that anyone cares, but here are the two reasons The Band Wagon will not be appearing on my list: horrifying adult babies and Oscar Levant. The latter is also one of several reasons An American in Paris won't be on my list.

And this magical number is why Lovely to Look at surely will find a place on my list.

Doesn't really work out of context I must say. Will try to check it out all the same.

knives wrote:Too bad, and I was considering using part of next paycheck for that and New York, New York (which has to be at least compelling awful). I guess I'll be getting the Sinatra and Kelly set instead.

I am probably biased, as a Scorsese die-hard (and a pretty huge Liza Minelli fan,) but I actually outright love New York, New York- it's lumpy, and sort of mean spirited, but it's deeply involving and some of the numbers are outright transcendent (particularly the huge Liza part that was put back into the end.) It fits in really well with what Scorsese was doing in that era, people who don't communicate well but who have these spectacular explosions of whatever's inside them expressed as art or violence or both.

PillowRock wrote:That would leave the one question as being what exactly constitutes the level of "critical mass" for musical-ness. Movies with only exactly one song, like Rififi are clearly not musicals. However, for me, Some Like It Hot is starting to get into the grey area, and I've seen both "musical" and "non-musical" claimed for it (and I can reasonably accept either interpretation).

I'm not seriously considering it, since it better fits the noir/drama genre but Gilda fits into this category too with "Put The Blame on Mame". I also particularly like the Tra-la-la song from Clouzot's Quai des Orfervres!

knives wrote:What's the best way to get Plympton's The Tune? Is it only available in the lone DVD or is it also in one of the many boxsets.

I'm sorry knives but I can't help you with the availability question but, absolutely The Tune deserves a fair shot on my own list too. A very sweet film, with a slightly bitter tang! I absolutely love the bawdier and more crude in spots I Married A Strange Person as well, though I would recommend anyone new to Plympton to start with The Tune!

knives wrote:Doesn't really work out of context I must say. Will try to check it out all the same.

Hm. This clip is why I almost wish this was a list of musical numbers instead of musical films (in which case, colinr0380, "Put the Blame on Mame" from Gilda would be near the top for me). I suppose in context, the Champions' number is even better because everything that surrounds it is so mediocre that it stands out by contrast. It's just about all that's worth noting about the film. But I think one can still appreciate the skill and chemistry of the dancers, the choreography and camera movement, and the overall filmmaking skill (there are only 3 cuts in the entire scene) of that clip outside of the context of the film.

matrixschmatrix wrote:

knives wrote:Too bad, and I was considering using part of next paycheck for that and New York, New York (which has to be at least compelling awful). I guess I'll be getting the Sinatra and Kelly set instead.

I am probably biased, as a Scorsese die-hard (and a pretty huge Liza Minelli fan,) but I actually outright love New York, New York- it's lumpy, and sort of mean spirited, but it's deeply involving and some of the numbers are outright transcendent (particularly the huge Liza part that was put back into the end.) It fits in really well with what Scorsese was doing in that era, people who don't communicate well but who have these spectacular explosions of whatever's inside them expressed as art or violence or both.

I'll still be getting the Scorsese, $5 for a Blu is hard to pass up, but I'm not expecting King of Comedy.

colinr0380 wrote:

knives wrote:What's the best way to get Plympton's The Tune? Is it only available in the lone DVD or is it also in one of the many boxsets.

I'm sorry knives but I can't help you with the availability question but, absolutely The Tune deserves a fair shot on my own list too. A very sweet film, with a slightly bitter tang! I absolutely love the bawdier and more crude in spots I Married A Strange Person as well, though I would recommend anyone new to Plympton to start with The Tune!

In that case I'll be getting the solo DVD. I'm familiar with his shorts, but haven't seen any of his feature work so I'm excited at the opportunity. I'm assuming you're equally unsure about the DVDs for I Married a Strange Person?

Good News has already been mentioned a bunch, but if we're discussing best musical numbers the opening to said film ranks highly for me. There's also the wonderful alley dance in My Sister Eileen. And there's this scene from Susan Slept Here, although it does take a bit of leniency since the film isn't a musical and no one sings, but if you combine it with this scene I'm sure someone could make the argument (not that I will).

Apologies for the overzealous use of links.

It didn't make it onto my westerns list, but Calamity Jane might make it onto the musicals one. Doris Day makes a surprisingly good tomboy!

EDIT: Yes, knives I'm not certain - sorry I've got the two Plymptons recorded from television screenings rather than on DVD.

I'll have to check that one out, that song was just too great, and Howard Keel!

I'm embarrassed by how much I enjoyed that clip. To think here I was being pessimistic about this list.