criterionforum.org

BFI to launch DVD and Blu-ray ‘Dual Format Editions’
Not only does the price mean that the BFI's quality Blu-rays are instantly more affordable,

Something tells me, that this is a 1984-like lie, i.e. increasing the price and saying you cut the price:
How was the RRP of Blu-rays before?
I can't believe that the street price is lower for Blu-ray & DVD together.

Street prices of other Blu-rays of BFI are sometimes cheaper (no special offers) sometimes more expensive despite having always highter RRPs (source: amazon.co.uk)

Only thing I wanted to emphasis: The double package is not cheaper because of the additional DVD but instead the DVD!
(and BFI wants us to believe the first)

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make, and I'm not sure that you do either.

But can I respectfully suggest that before you call people liars (especially named individuals, as here), you do them the courtesy of doing some basic research beforehand? To date, RRPs on BFI Blu-ray releases have been between £22.99 and £34.99, regardless of discounting applied by individual retailers, and so a RRP of £19.99 for dual-format editions is clearly a reduction. I really don't see how you can sensibly argue otherwise.

MichaelB, I am just being critical here.
The thing is: bundling of 2 different media has never worked as far as I know.

Maybee perpee can explain, whats so clever here!?

Some consumers wont buy because of the dual format.
BFI will sell more units due to the lower price, but will lose units due to no double dip.

Some consumers wont buy because of the dual format.

Mozart wrote:MichaelB, I am just being critical here.

No, you're being cynical. Being critical would require evidence-backed argument, which has been in distinctly short supply thus far.

The thing is: bundling of 2 different media has never worked as far as I know.

Disney has been releasing dual-format Blu-ray and DVD editions for some time - I personally own Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Pinocchio, Up, and most recently Ponyo: I'm not privy to their figures, but I'm assuming that their most recent releases wouldn't have been dual-format if the earlier ones hadn't been successful. Sony's Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs is also dual-format, presumably because they think the idea worked well enough for Disney. Perhaps you could come up with a concrete counter-example?

Some consumers wont buy because of the dual format.

I think that's extraordinarily unlikely, given that the RRP for a DVD plus Blu-ray is exactly the same as the RRP for the DVD edition. Can you seriously imagine someone saying "Well, I was going to buy the single-format version for £19.99, but now that they've thrown in another disc for no extra cost I think I'll give it a miss"? Especially if the film in question isn't available anywhere else in either format - as is often the case with BFI releases?

BFI will sell more units due to the lower price, but will lose units due to no double dip.

I imagine my colleagues will be touched by your concern, but they presumably did all the relevant number-crunching before making this announcement. And it's not really anyone else's problem.

Thanks for your elaborate answer.
I haven't known that you work for/with (?) BFI - though my opinion on the dual edition won't change that fact.

The mere price is not decisive for consumers in a market psycological view, but the perception of the product: consumers "feel" they have to pay for something (half of the whole product) they dont use.

counter-examples:
- numerous HD/DVD tries on the german market (e.g. Kinowelt, Capelight, ...)
- MoC Sunrise bundle which has not seen the light of the day
-> of course some companies have assets that would be bought to a certain degree in any presentation (e.g. Disneys movies)

Best
Mozart

btw: Being pretty impressed by some of the reviews of DVDbeaver of BFI-discs.
I should start buying some and support the work.

Mozart wrote:The mere price is not decisive for consumers in a market psycological view, but the perception of the product: consumers "feel" they have to pay for something (half of the whole product) they dont use.

I think you are making the mistake of assuming that the purchasing household has one set-up to view movies and it's BD-capable. I suspect that many households with children have the capability to view movies in more than one location simply because the tastes of adults and children tend to diverge. There are also quite a few people that view movies on their laptop, particularly when traveling. I'll wager very few of those laptops have Blu-ray capability.

So let's say Mom and the kids want to watch the latest Disney Pixar blockbuster and want to see it on their main set-up in Blu. But Dad needs to scratch an Ozu itch. Now he can have a quite whisky and watch Tokyo Story in his office without becoming the family bad guy.

The other day I had to cool my heels at the garage that does my auto repairs for about 3 hours. I had my MacBook with me but Macs don't do Blu. Had I wanted to watch one of the BFI dual releases I could have taken the DVD with me and watched it on the laptop. So I think the dual releases at a lower price than a single release will find a market.

Mozart wrote:counter-examples:
- MoC Sunrise bundle which has not seen the light of the day

What? When did MoC ever say that they were doing a BFI-like dual with this title?

Mozart wrote:The mere price is not decisive for consumers in a market psycological view, but the perception of the product: consumers "feel" they have to pay for something (half of the whole product) they dont use.

I have hundreds and hundreds of discs that I've never watched and will never watch, either because they're in a foreign language (i.e. extras discs on releases where only the main feature has English subtitles) or because I was only interested in the main feature. This has never been of the slightest concern to me.

counter-examples:
- numerous HD/DVD tries on the german market (e.g. Kinowelt, Capelight, ...)
- MoC Sunrise bundle which has not seen the light of the day

So your counter-examples consist of a format that flopped in the marketplace regardless of how it was packaged, and something that, even if it was ever mooted (and I'm not at all sure about this) was certainly never released? You'll forgive me for not being especially swayed by these.

with HD/DVD I mean BR/DVD - bundles and HD-DVD/DVD - bundles

triodelover wrote:I think you are making the mistake of assuming that the purchasing household has one set-up to view movies and it's BD-capable. I suspect that many households with children have the capability to view movies in more than one location simply because the tastes of adults and children tend to diverge. There are also quite a few people that view movies on their laptop, particularly when traveling. I'll wager very few of those laptops have Blu-ray capability.

That's me in a nutshell. My Blu-ray viewing time is very limited indeed, for various domestic reasons - whereas I can watch DVDs more or less whenever I like, and often on my daily commute. Much though I love having the option of watching the Blu-ray, there's very little question that DVDs are far more convenient - and once I've watched the Blu-ray once, the chances are that it'll be the DVD that I turn to for reference.

Similarly, I know loads of people who are vaguely thinking about getting into Blu-ray, but who haven't yet taken the plunge - and releases like this will encourage them to think about it without pushing them too hard.

for the Sunrise bundle:
see here: http://www.criterionforum.org/forum/vie ... =15&t=9768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MichaelB wrote:This has never been of the slightest concern to me.

We are (unfortunately) not the median...

Mozart wrote:We are (unfortunately) not the median...

My mother-in-law's tastes are as mainstream as they come, and I'm willing to bet that she also has dozens if not hundreds of DVDs that she's never watched and will never watch.

In fact, I'd be curious to know what percentage of consumers actually bother to load up the second disc in a typical two-disc set. My guess is that it's relatively small.

MoC's decision to go Blu-only on certain titles was based on their desire to release more titles as opposed to having to release two versions of many titles. In the linked thread above, yes, more people voted against dual releases, but it doesn't follow that they wouldn't buy a dual release if it were the only way to get the film.

Also, I would think BFI is in a better financial position to be able to afford to produce dual editions than is MoC.

It's a natural and much needed step away from separate editions on the road to Blu-ray only releases. It puts Blu-ray discs into the hands of every purchaser -- a very powerful incentive to get hold of a player.

The BFI's remit almost certainly can't exclude the DVD format just yet -- but putting Blu-ray discs in the hands of everybody in dual-format editions is a dynamite move -- especially at an RRP of £19.99.

Anybody moaning about this initiative is a troll or an idiot.

peerpee wrote:Anybody moaning about this initiative is a troll or an idiot.

It's still a few days short of this month's Criterion announcements and people are running out of things to squabble about is my guess. I can't believe anybody's finding a downside to this either.

Yeah, I'm usually pretty cantankerous myself, but I have no idea how the spare DVD is going to impact me negatively.

peerpee wrote: Anybody moaning about this initiative is a troll or an idiot.

Are these kind of childish insults really necessary?
I think not.
I am sure we would not be impressed if someone who worked for Criterion posted on this forum with such language.

I think the words you are looking for are "someone with a different opinion to mine" not "troll or idiot".

Or maybe you would prefer a forum where all the members posted opinions that only agreed with yours?

Actually, the DVD is not 'spare' because it has exclusive extra features. Do you think that BFI is stupid enough to let people keep the blu-rays and sell the DVDs on Ebay?
I agree with peerpee, this move doesn't affect the consumers negatively, in fact the BFI releases are now cheaper!

godardslave wrote:Or maybe you would prefer a forum where all the members posted opinions that only agreed with yours?

Couldn't care less about your faux-disdain about my language. What's your point about BFI's dual-format initiative?

godardslave wrote:I think the words you are looking for are "someone with a different opinion to mine" not "troll or idiot".

If you're going to go the polite route, I think the softest you could phrase this is "someone with a wrong opinion."

In other news, my local grocery store is giving away free loaves of bread today. Those assholes.

I have argued in a rationale way.
Seems like some of you guys / marketing experts seem to have a different opionion.
That's ok for me.

How is BFI able to put both the main feature and the bonus film on 1 DVD?
Or is the main feature Blu-only? (in that case I find the strategy clever too)

Best,
Mozart

Mozart wrote:How is BFI able to put both the main feature and the bonus film on 1 DVD?

By encoding it in such a way that both fit. Which isn't that much of a challenge with Ozu's films, given his slow-moving, undemonstrative brand of cinema.

perkizitore wrote:Actually, the DVD is not 'spare' because it has exclusive extra features.

Well, in some cases, the Blu-ray and DVD will indeed have identical content (HD/SD distinction aside), but in others there'll be differences. For instance, the DVD of Institute Benjamenta has one additional extra not present on the Blu-ray, simply because the old production featurette (as featured on the long-OOP Kino DVD) looked absolutely hideous when upscaled - the on-set footage was originally shot on a cheap camcorder. I think BFI policy is to make all Blu-ray content 1080p only, to maximise compatibility - since many non-European players have difficulty with PAL-sourced SD material.

peerpee wrote: Anybody moaning about this initiative is a troll or an idiot.

This needed to be said.

The BFI have made a great step forward in the progression of film viewing in the home with this announcement.

The comments made by Mozart are ill informed and accusatory.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but many of the Flipside DVDs have been priced at £17.99. So if one isn't Blu-Ray enabled, that would represent a £2 increase, not a price drop, if a bundled edition of the same film were the only option.

Personally, I'm an enthusiastic customer for BFI's Blus, and am delighted at the prospect of paying slightly less for them. I hasten to add that, lest I be thought of as an idiot or a troll.