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Your ballots for the 2000s list are due at the end of January 2010. PM them to me.

THE RULES

1) Each individual list is to comprise no more or less than 50 films, ranked in your order of preference. If you haven't seen 50 films from the decade that you think are genuinely great, don't bother voting. (If you are currently in this unfortunate position and want to rectify that before the end of January, then this is the thread for you!)
2) Any feature film, documentary, experimental film, short film, music video, TV miniseries, TV movie or TV special released in the 2000s is eligible.
3) Television series or seasons / episodes of television series are not eligible.
4) The date given on imdb is the relevant date for determining eligibility, even when it's clearly wrong.
5) Two-part films released separately (e.g. Eisenstein's Ivans) count as one film. Trilogies (e.g. Ray's Apus) count as separate films.

After the 00s list, we can start again from the top if there's enough interest (and somebody prepared to take over the administration - but I've already had a volunteer for that).

Something I've been toying with as a supplement / prelude of sorts to the first list of the new round (Silent Era: pre-1930) is a specific 'Early Cinema' vote.

The development of film grammar was so rapid in the first few decades of cinema's existence, that there's often a bigger difference between films made in 1915 and 1925 than there is between films made in 1925 and 2005. As a consequence, and quite understandably, the 'Silent Era' list is very heavily weighted towards 1920s films.

I know that several forum members have been exploring pre-1920s filmmaking over the past several years, and there's much more of it available than ever before, so I'd like to gauge interest in a one-off 'Early Cinema' (pre-1920) list project, maybe with individual lists of 25 titles and a consensus list of fifty? I'd be happy to tally the votes if there are enough potential participants to justify it.

The advantages of this would be to shine some light on a particularly hard-to-navigate period of filmmaking, identifying some strong contenders for consideration in the full Silent Era vote to follow. If you're interested in participating in such a list project, PM me or post here. If there's enough people to justify it, we can set a date.

Adding an 'Early Cinema' vote sounds like a great idea to me, but would there then be a need to do a full 'Silent Era' vote? Could we instead split the silent era and compile an 'Early Cinema (pre-1920s)' list and a '1920s' list? It just seems to me that it might be time to let the 1920s stand on its own as a decade. Any thoughts?

First of all, sorry to hear that you will be passing on the baton, zedz. Hard to imagine the lists project without you as the captain.

Secondly, I agree completely with the idea of an "ealiest cinema" list. I have recently devoted a lot of time to viewing the films from the first couple of decades, and there is indeed a wealth of material available, and it has been an exciting and eye-opening experience in so many ways.

For ease, it would make sense to confine such a list to pre-1920s cinema, but probably it would be more correct to draw the line in 1912 or 1915. Once the feature film became the norm, there appeared to be a tremendous leap toward the kind of stories and cinema that we know today. There is of course no fixed date, but to me it seems that the big turning point was somewhere between 1912 and 1915.

Also, why not just make this list a natural part of the decades progression. So, once we do the list for the '00s in January, then the next list would be this one (in June or July)?

The idea of an early cinema list sounds great to me, partly because I'm very much an enthusiastic novice when it comes to this era, and would be fascinated just to spectate the discussion. To me, and I guess to most people, that's the best thing about the lists project; the list itself is not all that interesting, but the free-for-all debate is wonderful. Even if not that many members actually participated, I suspect the conversation would be very animated and productive.

Just finished watching the 'European Pioneers' disc in Kino's 'The Movies Begin' set - a flawed release but so much amazing material - so it's nice to see this idea being floated.

I suggested 'Early Cinema' as a supplementary list rather than a new stage of the big project only because I was doubtful that there'd be enough participants and enough consensus to come up with a full (100 film) list, but if we can get an impressive enough show of hands, that's certainly an option.

Personally, being able to focus on pre- and post-1920 cinema separately would be something of a relief, but right now I don't know if I'd be able to come up with 50 personal favourites for the early list - yet.

zedz wrote:Personally, being able to focus on pre- and post-1920 cinema separately would be something of a relief, but right now I don't know if I'd be able to come up with 50 personal favourites for the early list - yet.

I am sure you would get there

If we decide upon this now, everyone will have about a year to do some early cinema viewing, and one of the goods things about early film is that most are very short, so it should be comparatively easy for anyone with the inclination to participate to get an overview before the lists are due.

zedz wrote:Personally, being able to focus on pre- and post-1920 cinema separately would be something of a relief, but right now I don't know if I'd be able to come up with 50 personal favourites for the early list - yet.

If the early list is to become a permanent part of the project, would there be a need (at least in its first round) to build a list of 100 titles? I happen to like your idea of limiting the early list to 50, drawn from our lists of 25. The 1920s list could then follow the usual pattern (i.e., 100 titles compiled from lists of 50 titles).

. . . accidental double post - sorry.

I think the split is a good idea. It will definitely spread interest to a mostly forgotten era of films. It wouldn't be too hard for people to pick up or rent a boxset.

I too am strongly for dividing up the Silent Era into two lists. As Scharp suggested, it may be more wise to make the cut before 1920. Remember, Caligari is 1919, and that's a film that belongs with the '20s, not the teens. At the very least we should set it at the end of the war, though 1916 or 1917 may be even better. That would also nicely divide the Silent Era into 1895-1916 (12 years) and 1917-1929 (13 years).

I would love to spend some solid hours watching some of the gems from the early years of cinema. Let's do it!

I too think we should have separate votings for pre- and post-1920 cinema (or we could of course divide it in another way as well, as denti suggested though in my opinion 1920 could be just fine point to divide the years). I'm pretty sure I would be already able to make a decent pre-20s list myself. Of course that would include a lot of short films, but there are some much fantastic stuff there to discover, and many of them are even available in youtube, that I doubt it would be that hard for people to make even a list with 50 titles.

denti alligator wrote:Remember, Caligari is 1919, and that's a film that belongs with the '20s, not the teens.

According to IMDB, which is our guide for these things, Caligari is 1920.

I like the idea as zedz suggested it--namely, doing the early cinema list as a prelude to the full-on silent era list, as an opportunity to highlight gems that might otherwise get drowned out by the '20s giants. While it might make logical sense to split the era roughly in half into two lists, "Best Films of the Silent Era" still sounds a whole let sexier to me than "The Top Films of 1916-1929."

Well if Aesthetics is a thing we could say pre/during and post war for the list. Looking at IMDB there are far too many traditional and big name (Intolerance) films in that 1917-1919 window to give the real early stuff a shot on a fifty list. splitting off the years also makes thinking things out simpler.

I haven't participated in the lists project yet, but with a new look at the silent era, I will surely feel confident enough now to take part in the 'next run'. And I fully concur with denti's idea of splitting the silent era at around 1916, though in this case "Birth of a Nation" and "Intolerance" would still be among the 'earliest' films. But in the last few years so many films have become available (both 'earliest' and 'later' silents) that it would be completely unfair to put that mass of material into one list.

Let me briefly say how much these lists have been helpful to me in the past to explore cinema history more or less chronologically, though currently I'm still firmly stuck in the early 60s. But looking at the earlier silent lists, I'm sure a lot of additions will have to be made due to films having been unearthed in the last two or three years. I just wonder whether we should vote for just one Mitchell & Kenyon-film, for instance, or see the whole of these films as a sort of 'heritage'. But I have little doubt that I could come up with fifty pre-1916 films in any case; and others here know much more about this era than I do.

Maybe 1914 would be best, then. That would make the focus heavily on the early cinema (mostly pre-features). It would also give us an even two decades for 1895-1914 (don't ask me where my first figures came from--I've always sucked at math), and a decade and a half for 1915-1929.

The List Projects: Early Cinema (1895-1914)

The List Projects: The Classic Silent Era (1915-1929)

I think that's sexy.

Or we could make the 1920s a decade, the teens a decade (why not?) and designate 1895-1909 "early cinema." But I doubt we'd get too many bites for that idea.

Edit: either way I wouldn't be able to vote for this film.

I appreciate--and completely understand--the suggestions to split the silent era roughly in half, but I'm not sure this is a good idea. For one thing, we have so far had several suggestions as to the dividing line, each with its own rationale, but no clear consensus. Also, the project (so far) has been geared toward the compilation of decades lists. That is, our dividing lines have been entirely artificial, rather than carefully chosen boundaries that are sensitive to the natural shifts and/or transitions in cinema history. If we haven't felt the need to drawn non-artificial lines so far, why the need now? If it's that we think there are far too many pre-1920s films to fit within a list of 50, then we could just as easily produce a list of 100 titles.

But reno, it hasn't been by decade: the Silent Era list has been the odd-man-out.

I think it's best to split the era in two. It would benefit everyone to focus on the early years separately from the classic silent era (whether that's defined as the post-1920 or post-1915ish).

denti alligator wrote:But reno, it hasn't been by decade: the Silent Era list has been the odd-man-out.

I think it's best to split the era in two. It would benefit everyone to focus on the early years separately from the classic silent era (whether that's defined as the post-1920 or post-1915ish).

But denti, my approach would still leave an odd-man-out (i.e. Early Cinema), while adding a 1920s decade list to the project. I fully support the idea of dividing the silent era into two parts (I suggested it above), but I don't see the need to leave two odd-men-out.

I'm on reno dakota's side with this: adding the 1920s as another decade-based list and lumping the pre-20s stuff together. Sure there are a handful of filmmakers (Griffith, Walsh, Sjostrom, Stiller, Christensen, Bauer) who were 'competing with the 20s' in the late teens, but an awful lot of films even into the 1920s were still comparatively rudimentary in their montage and grammar (though not without their charms!), and I've got no problem with precocious talents such as these dominating our appreciation of 'Early Cinema' (alongside, say, Feuillade, who seems to me like the ne plus ultra of 'primitive' early cinema). Making a divide based on the desire to include or exclude particular films (e.g. Birth of a Nation, or Caligari) seems awkwardly close to presupposing value and predetermining an outcome, like dividing the 30s and 40s into pre- and post-Citizen Kane.

I'd much rather keep to something completely arbitrary like a decade cut-off to minimise border disputes and maintain consistency. Don't forget that the previous 'Silent Era' vote arbitrarily included many sound films and excluded lots of major silents. Also, the earlier we go, the less chance we have of attracting participants and reaching any consensus: we'd really be venturing into a canon-free zone, which is exciting for the purposes of discussion, but not exactly ideal for this kind of exercise.

denti alligator wrote:The List Projects: Early Cinema (1895-1914)

The List Projects: The Classic Silent Era (1915-1929)

I can totally dig this but I can also understand the desire for more arbitrary distinctions. I mean, if we start trying to pre-empt a feature weighted list we're moving beyond the point of the project, somewhat. I do think the 1920's certainly deserve their own decade and it has been one of my silent (no pun) grumbles that the early cinema actualities, documentaries, and camera tricks -- all reaching and discovering the truth and power of the medium -- get left out in the cold next to the giants who took the next steps. Of course, this still has the potential to happen in a 1888-1919 list, but they have a fighting chance next to the Scandanavians, Italians and Griffith.

And I should further say that there really is very little excuse NOT to participate in an Early Cinema list. Lots of films are available, lots of them are even online through Library of Congress, BFI and other institutions and kind-hearted individuals, and so many of these are very short. Sets of Griffith shorts, Méliès, Lumiere, Edison company, not to mention the DFI pre-20's features and shorts....just incredible. No one has to sit around and wait for the Edison retrospective to see the films in a theater...afterall, isn't YouTube just the kinetoscope of the digital age?

I will gladly participate in whatever incarnation is decided....if pressed for a vote, I say Early Cinema: 1888-1919; 1920's Decade List: 1920-1929.

I'll fourth a twenties list. Suppose that's settled then.

So let's tentatively go for Early Cinema (-1919) and 1920s, dates to be decided. It's still going to be some time off, so all eyes on the (other) 00s now.

I think it might be useful to list all relevant and available material for a 1895-1919 list, so we have

The most essential set for the pre-feature era is The Movies Begin (Kino) with the two most popular pre-1913 films Voyage dans la lune and Great Train Robbery as well as a selection of Lumiere/Melies/Pathe/Edison films and also a good look at the Brighton school with films of Williamson/Paul/Smith on discs 2 and 3 which BTW are also known as BFI's Early Cinema program. For more British films you might also take a look at the Films of R.W. Paul (BFI) and Mitchell & Kenyon. Almost the complete Melies is available from Flicker Alley. On the US side there’s the big Edison set from Kino, while Gaumont gave us a treat with two huge Treasures boxes of which the first got released in a thinner version in the US featuring early films by Feuillade, a good selection of Alice Guy-Blache and L'Enfant du Paris by Leonce Perret. For more early film there’s also BFI's Silent Shakespeare and Kino’s The Lumière Brothers’ First Films and the more adventurous might be interested in the huge collection of films from the Thanhouser studio here http://www.thanhouser.org/DVD-1-2-3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Among other collections including early films there's the Unseen Cinema set (Image) with e.g. Lois Weber’s Suspense as its most significant contribution, but more important are the three Treasures from American Film Archives boxes (Image) including e.g. William S. Hart’s Hell’s Hinges and the sensitive Land beyond the Sunset in the first box, The Invaders, Children who labor and Falling Leaves in the second and Lois Weber’s Where are my Children? as well as Courage of the Commonplace in the 3rd box.
The Origins of Film (Image, out-of Print) carries Tourneur's Alias Jimmy Valentine, Florida Enchantment, films by Weber and Guy-Blaché as well as some important early US-animation from Blackton and others.
Finally 6 volumes of Lobster's Retour de Flamme series collect various films and their Premier Pas du Cinema DVD collects very early color and sound films, all can be ordered on the Edition Filmmuseum page as can be another collection, the Crazy Cinematographe.
Chaplin's Essanays and Mutuals are available from BFI; A Dog's Life, Shoulder Arms, Sunnyside and Day's Pleasure from Warner, the definitive edition of the Keystone's is announced for this year from BFI, but too late for us.
Keaton/Arbuckle are available from MoC, Harold Lloyd is in the big Lloyd box and the two Kino Lloyd collections add 8 shorts.
Max Linder is available on Laugh with Max Linder, but mostly relevant for the 10s is Grapevine‘s collection. His films ran on German TV, but a fine DVD release is overdue.
And if you can't get enough silent comedy there's 10 volumes of Slapstick Encyclopedia.
Griffith's major films like Birth of a Nation, Intolerance, Broken Blossoms, Avenging Conscience and True Heart Susie are available from Kino and Image; the filmmakers thread on him lists all available Biograph shorts with Kino, Image and Grapevine having released extensive collections; Home Sweet Home, Judith of Bethulia, The Greatest Question, Romance of Happy Valley and Hearts of the World are available on tape (http://www.lifeisamovie.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), Scarlet days from Grapevine.
DeMille can also be easily obtained: Cheat, Joan the Woman, Don’t Cheat your Husband, Golden Chance, Whispering Chorus, Old Wives for new, Male and Female are all available from Kino and Image, Carmen from VAI and there’s a box by Passport with lesser editions which however include Squaw Man and Virginian
Tourneur is represented by Blue Bird, Victory and Wishing Ring plus an abridgement of Girl’s Folly (both on the Before Hollywood there was Fort Lee, N.J. DVD). Trilby is available on reelclassicdvd.com. Alias Jimmy Valentine is in the Origins set mentioned above.
Douglas Fairbanks' early features of the 10s are almost completely available through Flicker Alley while Mary Pickford also fares well with Cinderella, Little Princess, Stella Maris, Amarilly of Clothes-Line Alley, M'Liss, Daddy-Long-Legs, Heart o' the Hills released by Image; Pride of the Clan is added by Grapevine, the Little American and Romance of the Redwoods are available in the big, legally dubious DeMille set from Passport. Poor Little Rich Girl and Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm are also floating around on youtube or in cheap editions.
Stroheim's Blind Husbands is out from Edition Filmmuseum.
Walsh's Regeneration was released by Kino. Traffic in Souls and the Italian from Flicker Alley offer similar looks at US society. Browning's Wicked Darling is available, too. Among other early US features on DVD are Richard III and From the Manger to the Cross as is the surviving Theda Bara film A Fool there was or a version of 20000 Leagues under the Sea. The early Frankenstein is available on graveyard records. World War Films of the Silent Era and the similiar Civil War Films offer some features, too. Civilization by Ince was released on tape. Young Romance or Hodoo Ann are bonus material with other films. 3 early Westerns by Frank Borzage are available on the German The River DVD.
Lois Weber‘s Hypocrites got a sole DVD release as did Guy-Blache’s Ocean Waif together with 49-17 by Ruth Ann Baldwin.
Mad Love - The Films of Yevgeni Bauer and The Cameraman’s Revenge with the films of Starewicz are the main DVDs for those interested in Russian cinema. More of both directors and Russian cinema can be found on the 10 volumes of Early Russian cinema. Protazanov's Father Sergius appeared in France on DVD.
Danish cinema can be found via the DFI DVDs, Benjamin Christensen leading the pack, followed by Lind, Nielsen, Psilander, Blom's Atlantis, Dreyer's President, shorts from 1899-1913 and the science fiction films Verdens Undergang and Himmelskibet.
Sjöström is represented by Ingeborg Holm, Terje Vigen and Berg-Eyvind via Kino plus Dödskyssen on the German Körkarlen DVD; Stiller fares less well with only Herr Arne's Treasure available via Kino.
Gance’s J’accuse is available from Flicker Alley and Feuillade's serials Les Vampires, Fantomas and Judex are also easily obtained. Of the US serials the recut Perils of Pauline is available from Grapevine.
Cabiria, The Last Days of Pompei and Assunta Spina from Kino represent Italian cinema of the 10s. L’inferno is available with music by Tangerine Dream. The Cineteca Bologna released the 1915 Maciste.
Canada‘s contribution Back to God’s Country is an Image DVD, Australia’s Sentimental Bloke was released on DVD, Great Britain contributes The Life Story of David Lloyd George.
Early animation is a bit of a problem. Winsor McCay is presented by an Image DVD. Emile Cohl has a set devoted to him in France which was merged into the second Gaumont box. Early documentaries on DVD are In the Land of the War Canoes, The Battle of the Somme and South.
German cinema fares less well. The Student of Prague is available on a lesser Alpha disc. Lang's The Spiders is available from Image, Lubitsch's Oyster Princess, Doll, I don’t want to be a Man from Kino, Das Fidele Gefängnis on the Trouble in Paradise DVD, not to forget Oswald's Different from the Others and Reinert's Nerven from Edition Filmmuseum. Madame Dubarry is on Grapevine.

Generally spoken the period is not badly represented though there are some gaps here and there, as far as I'm aware Love and Journalism by Stiller, Furcht by Wiene, Girl from Marshcroft and Ingmarssönerna by Sjöström as well as Song of the Scarlet Flower by Stiller are not accessible even on the half-legal exchange markets or otherwise circulating among fans and unlikely to garner many votes here.
You have to search quite a bit for Der Andere by Max Mack, Asta Nielsen's German films, Homunculus, Tih Minh by Feuillade, Rose France by L'Herbier, Cenere with Eleonora Duse, Rapsodia satanica, the semi-futurist Thais, both of Stiller's Thomas Graal films, Oswald's Unheimliche Geschichten, Reinert's Opium and Gance's Mater Dolorosa

Obviously with all these shorts and collections there's a bit of overlapping between them. Since a lot of the films are public domain, a search on the internet for hard-to-find titles might prove successful, but please support quality releases by buying them.