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799 The Kid
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:10 pm
by swo17
The Kid
Charlie Chaplin was already an international star when he decided to break out of the short-film format and make his first full-length feature.
The Kid doesn't merely show Chaplin at a turning point, when he proved that he was a serious film director—it remains an expressive masterwork of silent cinema. In it, he stars as his lovable Tramp character, this time raising an orphan (a remarkable young Jackie Coogan) he has rescued from the streets. Chaplin and Coogan make a miraculous pair in this nimble marriage of sentiment and slapstick, a film that is, as its opening title card states, "a picture with a smile—and perhaps, a tear."
SPECIAL FEATURES
• New 4K digital restoration of Charlie Chaplin's 1972 rerelease version of the film, featuring an original score by Chaplin, with uncompressed monaural soundtrack on the Blu-ray
• New audio commentary featuring Chaplin historian Charles Maland
•
Jackie Coogan: The First Child Star, a new video essay by Chaplin historian Lisa Haven
•
A Study in Undercranking, a new piece featuring silent-film specialist Ben Model
• Interviews with Coogan and actor Lita Grey Chaplin
• Excerpted audio interviews with cinematographer Rollie Totheroh and film distributor Mo Rothman
• Deleted scenes and titles from the original 1921 version of
The Kid
•
"Charlie" on the Ocean, a 1921 newsreel documenting Chaplin's first return trip to Europe
• Footage of Chaplin conducting his score for
The Kid
•
Nice and Friendly, a 1922 silent short featuring Chaplin and Coogan, presented with a new score by composer Timothy Brock
• Trailers
• PLUS: An essay by film historian Tom Gunning
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:21 pm
by knives
Fairly unfortunate only the later edition is presented in full, though at this point I suppose expected. Is it known if the original cut exists in good condition?
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:49 pm
by EddieLarkin
I can't believe they've gone to the effort of a new 4K scan but haven't been able to present the film properly. No doubt it'll be the same for all the other First National Films. Fuck you Chaplin Estate.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:06 am
by hearthesilence
Jesus, Chaplin re-cut THIS one decades later too? I didn't know that. Guess I'll be holding on to that MK2 DVD.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:07 am
by criterion10
hearthesilence wrote:Jesus, Chaplin re-cut THIS one decades later too? I didn't know that. Guess I'll be holding on to that MK2 DVD.
What other Chaplin films do we have to worry about this issue with? From what I can gather, Chaplin re-scored
The Circus in the 60s (do most home video releases contain both scores? only the latter score?), but it seems like this shouldn't be an issue with the other as yet unreleased features and shorts.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:00 am
by The Fanciful Norwegian
hearthesilence wrote:Jesus, Chaplin re-cut THIS one decades later too? I didn't know that. Guess I'll be holding on to that MK2 DVD.
MK2 presented it the same way—the main feature was the '72 edit and the deleted scenes were only available as extras.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:52 am
by giovannii84
I thought the First National Shorts were meant to be included with this release?
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:16 am
by Saturnome
I'm pretty sure we'll get them along with "The Chaplin Revue", just like the old dvds...
Am I right in thinking that the 1970s re-edit of The Kid is more than a couple of deleted scenes, but may use alternate shots?
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:45 am
by EddieLarkin
criterion10 wrote:hearthesilence wrote:Jesus, Chaplin re-cut THIS one decades later too? I didn't know that. Guess I'll be holding on to that MK2 DVD.
What other Chaplin films do we have to worry about this issue with? From what I can gather, Chaplin re-scored
The Circus in the 60s (do most home video releases contain both scores? only the latter score?), but it seems like this shouldn't be an issue with the other as yet unreleased features and shorts.
All of the Keystone, Essanay and Mutual films are safe as they are not owned by the Chaplin Estate. Everything else up to and including A King in New York is owned by the Estate and Chaplin changed something about each and every film excepting City Lights, The Great Dictator and Monsieur Verdoux.
The Kid has been shortened by a quarter of its original run time (both due to scene excisions and a speed increase). And A Dog's Life, Shoulder Arms, and The Pilgrim were re-edited into a single 2 hour film (The Chaplin Revue), in which
Chaplin added a soundtrack to help appeal to modern audiences. Chaplin also added extra footage including clips from World War I to express the context. He provides a personal introduction to each of the clips.
giovannii84 wrote:I thought the First National Shorts were meant to be included with this release?
I had hoped this would be the case. I assume the reason they haven't been is because the Estate is going to force Criterion to release the aforementioned Chaplin Revue in place of 3 of them, as they have done elsewhere. This would be a disaster. Chaplin created these versions, as with nearly all of his later revised cuts, strictly to appeal to mainstream audiences in the 50s or the 70s etc. who he feared could no longer appreciate the original versions. I don't believe he for a second would have wanted them to exist as the only versions available to students of film, cineastes and silent film buffs.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:55 am
by Jonathan S
The Fanciful Norwegian wrote:hearthesilence wrote:Jesus, Chaplin re-cut THIS one decades later too? I didn't know that. Guess I'll be holding on to that MK2 DVD.
MK2 presented it the same way—the main feature was the '72 edit and the deleted scenes were only available as extras.
Yes, the only official DVD version of
The Kid in the original edit is the
earlier Image Entertainment release, part of David Shepard's long-OOP series in which all the subsequently deleted footage was reinstated.
As I mentioned in the Charlie Chaplin Speculation thread five years ago, though, more than just the re-editing of these films prevents us from seeing them in their original form:
David Shepard in 2000 wrote:... the current versions of Chaplin's First National films are NOT the original versions of those films. They were assembled from alternate takes so that the new negatives would be clean and intact; and were first published with the sound reissues...
As far as I'm aware, all official (approved by Chaplin Estate) DVD and Blu-ray versions use these editions - reportedly reassembled from B, C and D negatives as necessary - though inferior quality prints certainly survive with what may be original domestic release takes/angles and these have surfaced in various ways (in the US, the pre-1923 First Nationals - in their original form - should be in public domain). I own a 1960s 8mm print of
The Pilgrim - presumably from a much earlier print - which has some markedly different takes to those used in the theatrical and home video re-issues.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:53 am
by stroszeck
Wow. I sincerely thought with their track record that criterion would be able to work some sort of rights "magic" with the estate/rights holders. This basically means I have never seen the way the films were originally MEANT to be seen and that's shocking - considering it's 2015. At least the inferior prints should have an attempt to be released on home video. If only for preservation's sake and in spite if quality.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:24 am
by criterion10
The situation of The Kid seems to be the most and only majorly problematic one though, since like The Gold Rush, there are essentially two very different cuts of the film -- albeit only one is receiving the proper treatment. I can live with the alterations of both Modern Times and Limelight, since they only contain two brief scenes edited out; and those scenes are, of course, included as extras on the Criterion releases.
Is it likely that the "Deleted Scenes" extra will contain all of the footage Chaplin cut out? Also, I'm assuming that, like the 1942 re-release of The Gold Rush, this 1972 cut will contain voiceover narration instead of title cards -- am I correct? (EDIT: Just found the answer to this question myself, and thankfully I was wrong.) If so, this is very disappointing, and I'll actually have to hold on to that old Image DVD release (hopefully, this won't be necessary for Criterion's subsequent Chaplin titles).
Still can't help but wonder why the Chaplin Estate permitted both cuts of The Gold Rush, but not The Kid. (I know they did the same with the Warner DVDs.)
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:40 am
by giovannii84
I wonder why 'Chaplin Today: The Kid' isn't included, when they have included 'Chaplin Today' on other criterion Chaplin releases.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:57 pm
by HitchcockLang
giovannii84 wrote:I wonder why 'Chaplin Today: The Kid' isn't included, when they have included 'Chaplin Today' on other criterion Chaplin releases.
I noticed that too. But as you said, all the previous Criterion BDs have the Chaplin Today doc if it exists. Also, other region blu-ray releases of The Kid include the Chaplin Today doc so I'm assuming (hoping) that it was a mere oversight on the website and will be corrected.
It's also missing How to Make a Movie from the old DVD but that was also included on The Chaplin Revue and it makes more sense there so I assume Criterion will give that to us with their release of The Chaplin Revue (or some other variation of the First National Shorts).
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:36 pm
by PfR73
The Criterion release of The Great Dictator is also missing the related "Chaplin Today" featurette.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:45 am
by FrauBlucher
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:06 pm
by Ribs
Is there a reason they have the runtime down as 68 min? The "about the transfer" text seems to indicate its the same, shortened version as listed on Criterion's website.
799 The Kid
Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:55 pm
by FrauBlucher
Beaver This looks like it's in the early running for release of the year.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:40 pm
by guidedbyvoices
Any opinions from someone who bought this edition? I just watched this last night, DVr'd it from TCM and loved it. I haven't see a lot of silent film aside from Metropolis and Modern Times, but I also watched Duck Soup which was too broad and corny for me. So I almost expected to find Chaplin broad and corny too, but The Kid I really enjoyed. Not sure if the issues with using a later edit of the film should be a deal breaker in buying it. The TCM version had a Janus credit at the start and looked really good.
I was impressed with the angel dream, that part was great and how it was pretty seamlessly edited from him dosing in the doorway into the dream.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:43 pm
by dvakman
I'm all for authenticity, but in the case of The Kid, the IMHO heavy handed melodramatic scenes that were cut from the original version are not missed much; at least they can still be seen as extras.
Sometimes I feel that this film is best appreciated within the greater context of Chaplin's career and the evolution of screen comedy, but it still has much to recommend, particularly in light of the stunning quality of this latest release. I hope that The Circus is next up: it is Chaplin's funniest and most underrated feature IMHO.
While I'm on the subject of silent comedy, what I'd really love for Criterion to release is the reconstructed silent version of Lloyd's first talkie Welcome Danger, which has been screened in the last few years, but never released on DVD. That would make a great extra. Come to think of it, will Kino ever let go of Keaton long enough to allow him a hallowed spot in the collection as well?
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 11:20 am
by FrauBlucher
The Jackie Coogan: The First Child Star, a new video essay by Chaplin historian Lisa Haven and
A Study in Undercranking, a new piece featuring silent-film specialist Ben Model are excellent supplements. The latter is one of my favorites of all time. What an interesting and informative document on how the speed of the film contributed in creating wonderful comedic sequences. Any silent film fan will love this supplement.
Re: 799 The Kid
Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:13 am
by matrixschmatrix
dvakman wrote:I'm all for authenticity, but in the case of The Kid, the IMHO heavy handed melodramatic scenes that were cut from the original version are not missed much; at least they can still be seen as extras.
I've just watched this, and honestly, you aren't wrong- they're melodramatic and more importantly, basically irrelevant to the action that we care about (and the third one seems to imply that the kid's mother might get back with the biological father, which is terribly unpleasant.) That said, it's pretty frustrating that they're as beautifully restored as the rest of the movie, and were actually cut back out for the version we're getting; how hard would it be to release both versions, as they did with
The Gold Rush?
Also, given that the restoration appears to have been performed on a pre-1971 version, I wonder which version of the takes we're getting?