criterionforum.org

ELIGIBLE TITLES FOR 1971

VOTE THROUGH MARCH 31

Please post in this thread if you think anything needs to change about the list of eligible titles.

I can't find Beware of a Holy Whore.

Also Jimmy Sangster: Lust for a Vampire.

Same with Hannie Caulder

Two to add: Yoshida, Confessions among Actresses, and Bellocchio, Nel nome del padre. The latter is my favorite Belloccchio, Z-like performances and irregular editing. Please watch.

And a shout out to my favorite film of 1971, Jissoji's Mandara, a beautiful film on eroticism and the transcendence of history. Available in the Arrow Jissoji box.

Rayon Vert wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:06 pm I can't find Beware of a Holy Whore.

It’s listed with the 1970 films, though everywhere I’ve seen it’s 1971.

Another one to add for 1971: The Raging Moon

Yes Beware of a Holy Whore first premiered in August 1971 (!). (I just sent in my ballot in 1970 and did not include it.)

Interesting--both Criterion and Arrow call that Fassbinder a 1970 film. And I had that Bellocchio film as 1972. I've added everything else

Don't the labels sometimes just call a film a "X-year" film just because it was made in that year, not necessarily released? I think using IMDB, Wikepedia, other sources that pinpoint the specific dates of a first airing (premiere, release, etc.) would be more reliable.

Edit: The Thomsen book says it was shot over 22 days in Sept. 1970, and premiered on August 28, 1971 at the Venice Film Festival, same date as used by IMDB. It then went into general release in West Germany on September 1, 1971.

Rayon Vert wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:39 pm Don't the labels sometimes just call a film a "X-year" film just because it was made in that year, not necessarily released?

Some do (like Second Run). In my experience, Criterion and Arrow typically don't. They're not infallible though, and nor are any of the other sources you mention. That said, I see now that the Arrow release is internally inconsistent, sometimes calling it 1970 and sometimes 1971. I see a lot of other places calling it a 1970 film as well, but am not seeing any specific release dates before 1971. I can move it here

Thanks swo.

OK, so Fassbinder seems to be a problem here, and maybe we'll keep getting this problem though the decade. You've also got The Merchant of Four Seasons listed in 1971, and I see the 2015 (?) Arrow blu-ray collection calls it "1971", but I've got it as 1972, based on IMDB and all other sources that pinpoint a specific date.

Thomsen and IMDB both state the film first premiered in February 1972 in Paris, then went into general release in March 1972. (The film was shot in August 1971).

Wikipedia seems to maybe highlight the issue at play here. It also calls it a "1971 film" in its summary description, yet if you look at the dates it has on the right side column for the releases dates, they're the same 1972 dates as in the other resources!

So my feeling is films get assigned to "year X" (maybe because they get a production year assigned once they're "wrapped", in the can, and not released yet) without always referring to the release date, the date at which it was first viewed by an audience.

Logically it would only make sense to me that film dates be assigned to a specific release or first airing date that can be tracked down, rather than referring to a general year stamp that may reflect something different.

If only it were that simple. I don't know what the year listed in a summary description on Wikipedia is intended to represent or if it's consistent across films, and even if a specific release date is listed, that's not necessarily the first one. For this film, for instance, DVD Beaver lists a specific release date of 4 Nov 1971. Where did that come from?

I appreciate your response, swo. Yes, upon further reflection, perhaps it isn't.

That theatrical release date from DVD Beaver is strange, because I can't find it replicated elsewhere. Unfortunately it also doesn't say in what country it was allegedly theatrically released that day. (In West Germany it's supposedly March 10, 1972.)

Anyhoo, I guess we have to live with the uncertainty and I'll gladly go with your choice for this one.

I bring this whole thing up as a practical matter for myself since I've got my ranked master list of all films I've reviewed and then just search the document for "1971" and come up with my top 50 or whatever. If the year you've assigned a film is a year earlier than I have I'll miss it, whereas if you've got it a year later than I I'll catch it. I guess I'll just have to read the whole list of films you put up and make sure there aren't any outliers I've missed from my previous method.

Unfortunately there will always be at least a small number of films that show up in different years depending on what each person is using to track that. The only way for this to work is if I make these kinds of judgment calls so that we're all working with the same list of eligible titles. I certainly encourage everyone to carefully go through each eligibility list early on in the process. This is in addition to consulting your own tracking source, in case I've missed anything. I can fix or add things if needed, but the sooner this happens the better, so that more people have time to consider the latest information in their ballots. (Ballots can be revised after voting though)

Re: Merchant again. I'd purchased a used copy of the 1987 Robert Katz bio that I think zedz recommended during the Fassbinder list project. He also lists its first screening as February 10 in Paris, '72, like Thomsen and IMDB. (And Holy Whore as August 71.) Again, that doesn't prove anything, but I am curious about the DVDBeaver date. Not posting this to argue the '71 placement on this list, just sharing the info maybe in the hope that someone out there has more information.

I should also mention that Criterion lists Merchant as 1971. Again, they aren't infallible, but I've seen a lot of cases where there's a well established production year that differs from the release year, and they have a general track record of going with the release year in those cases. There are maybe just a handful of films I've seen so far where I don't agree with Criterion's year assignment. Furthermore, I might expect that at least in some cases, they're privy to information I'm not, so even if they don't publish a specific release date, if they show a year that's earlier than, say, IMDb, I'll generally assume that's based on a credible source unless I find contradictory information elsewhere. (For instance, Criterion has Letter Never Sent as 1959, while Wikipedia provides details about how the film wasn't ready for the Cannes 1960 festival and how Kalatozov did more work on it before its USSR premiere in June of 1960. Contextual details like that are pretty hard to argue against)

I wonder if there's anyone at Criterion that can be e-mailed that might have such information.

I suspect they would not consider this to be a customer inquiry worth prioritizing!

Damn.

A 1972 listing for the Bellocchio (Nel nome del padre) is sensible. It showed in the Venice Film Festival and opened pretty much everywhere it opened that year. But apparently - I wasn't around, so ... - it premiered at the 1971 New York Film Festival. However it's listed, I, again, encourage folks to check it out, if possible.

is there any way to see the Bellocchio with English subs?

In an effort to avoid vote-splitting, what are people's thoughts on voting for Hapax Legomena as a whole vs in parts? I've always viewed the parts as separate works (for me, (nostalgia) is the clear standout from '71, and Poetic Justice for '72) as opposed to, say, something like Dog Star Man, which feels like parts of a cohesive whole. I'd be interested in others' opinions who are better-versed in Frampton's project, but ultimately am happy to vote in the direction that'll promote some of these pieces' placements rather than weigh down their chances

I don't think I'd vote for the whole, but would need to rewatch

It seems that Frampton feels that way himself from the notes on the Criterion disc. Also, I can't seem to find parts IV, VI, or VII anywhere- does anybody have a resource? V is on back channels, and the first three parts are on the Crit

I forgot I haven't been able to see those parts! Which is to say that they are rare but common