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MichaelB
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:26 pm 
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Darth Lavender wrote:
I don't know about you, but I will only buy such a release if they get Vittorio Storaro to personally come in and reframe the triptych scenes to the proper 2:1 ratio.

Given that the aspect ratio of the triptychs is 4:1, I don't think that will do any damage.
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Person
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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:17 pm 
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Next week, I will have in my possession the 330-minute version of Napoleon on three DVD-Rs and I have been told that the quality is very good. I'll report back ASAP, but as I am in Dublin on thursday and friday, it might not be until next sunday/monday. I can't post caps via this computer, but I'll try using my brother's laptop.

I'm rather excited! :D
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nsps
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:35 pm 
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Person wrote:
Next week, I will have in my possession the 330-minute version of Napoleon on three DVD-Rs and I have been told that the quality is very good.

I recently obtained (what I believe/assume are) the same set of three PAL DVD-Rs.

I suspect, however, that these discs contain the 1989 version that rollotomassi and HerrShreck discussed on the previous page.

Quote:
Thames Television in association with the British Films Institute

A special video version of Abel Gance's 1927 masterpiece

Made from the most complete print restored by Kevin Brownlow with the technical assistance of the National Film Archive

Now, I'm in the States, so I don't have as great a sense of what's going on in Britain, but I'm quite certain that Thames Television no longer exists and that Brownlow and Davis no longer work in association with them. (Although some of Thames Silents productions have been released on DVDs like The Buster Keaton Chronicles.)

I don't actually have knowledge of what scenes have been altered in what way in the 2000 and 2004 restorations, so I don't know where to look for definitive comparisons. I understand, however, that Brownlow found many original takes and edits that were only available as second choices or recut scenes in the previous restoration.

I've only watched the first disc, but I understand that the triptych is in widescreen at the end, which is why I suspect this might be the specific version rollotomassi described. While these discs are obviously not a professionally produced release, this version is still preferable to the butchered Coppola version out on DVD in some regions. But if it's true that the conflict has petered out and an official release is imminent, then it's probably worth waiting to see the film in as close to its original glory as possible.
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MichaelB
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:22 pm 
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Thames Television does still exist, but as a subsidiary of FremantleMedia - and it currently trades under the name TalkbackTHAMES. More pertinently, it's no longer a broadcaster, having controversially lost its franchise in 1992.

As far as I recall, Napoleon has been shown twice on British television, both times on Channel 4, in 1983 and 1989 respectively. Both versions were the same, consisting of the 1980 Kevin Brownlow restoration with the Carl Davis score, and concluding with the single-screen version of the last twenty minutes. So if your version does contain a triptych, it will have been added at a later date, probably from one of the releases of the Coppola version. (I think the triptychs have only been screened on British television as excerpts in Brownlow's 1995 series Cinema Europe - The Other Hollywood).

I saw the later Brownlow version in London in 2000, and it was quite significantly different in a great many scenes (even familiar set-pieces like the Double Storm were paced differently, and Carl Davis' score altered accordingly). This is almost certainly a side-effect of many scenes being replaced by superior materials, which had been edited slightly differently from the equivalents in the 1980 edit.
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nsps
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:34 pm 
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Thanks for the insight, Michael. Here are the quotes from the previous page that I referenced. I suspect this is the version that Person and I have, but if I notice any sequences that are edited in a significantly new (to us, of course) manner, I'll be sure to share.

rollotomassi wrote:
I myself have a hush-hush, can't copy folks, for home viewing only 5½ hour version with Davis' score on DVDR, with the tricolor sequence intact. There is only one way this can be done.

The film was last shown in the Brownlow version with the Davis music on British TV on Channel 4 in July 1989 as part of the French Revolution bicentennial celebrations. This version, however, though in original monochrome with the Davis score that opens with Mozart's immortal 25th Symphony in the Brienne schoolyard, was altered for video so the tricolor and widescreen tripych was altered to straight 4:3.

What I and a colleague did, for our own viewing, was to take the ending from the DVD version, admittedly with the Coppola music, and, using a special computer program of said colleague, digitally recorded the Davis music from the old VHS finale and supplanted it over the Coppola score and then pasted the sycnhronised ending - tricolor ending with Davis music to the end of the film.

This is by no means perfect, as of course there title captions for advert breaks permeate the print, and at the point the picture goes widescreen I have to manually reset the picture, but I now have it transferred to DVDR on three discs. It's nowhere near what it would be like if restored to DVD, but it's as good as I think I'm ever going to see.

The best you can hope to do is somehow find someone with an extenstive video collection in the UK who may have taped it way back in 1989 to copy it for you and then do as I did. I made the mistake of copying my version for a friend who then tried to sell it on ebay and was instantly in trouble. Needless to say I gave him a pasting down.

I hope some of you who only know the Coppola version can get lucky as I did ...

Obviously the 2000 restoration is a big improvement in terms of running time and quality, but there's no chance of ever seeing that unless Coppola pops his clogs, and I wouldn't quite wish that, even if after selling his soul to the Black Prince for the seven years of good luck that began and ended with The Godfather and Apocalypse Now his later career had been disposable.

The version I mean is the best version available prior to that, the 5½ hour version that played in London and Paris (it was the Coppola 4 hr version that played everywhere else). Not perfect, by any means, but still a million times better than the Coppola version... Sorry for any confusion.
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peerpee
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:30 am 
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Haven't seen this anywhere else... but in the BFI supplement with the new edition of RRP Magazine, James White - technical director of BFI Video - states that he's in the middle of overseeing: "2K scans of Gance's NAPOLEON. There's a new restoration happening in LA and, as the BFI holds all the material, we're responsible for supplying the scans..... .... For a film from 1927, it amazes me how much detail is in there. That said, the film's going to need a lot of work. There's heavy damage in places, a lot of scratches, and the film is made up of multiple components each with their own sets of challenges. Plus it's more than 425,000 frames. Best of luck."

Shame the BFI aren't responsible for the entire restoration. So I wonder what's happening here? Sounds like Coppola's overseeing something, probably with Robert Harris -- fresh from redoing THE GODFATHER? Will Kevin Brownlow be involved with his life's work? Or not?
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nsps
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:30 am 
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Thanks for this update, Peerpee. I'm still eager to hear the story behind the "no rights issue" comments. Seeing as Carmine's Coppola's score wouldn't fit anyway, and that's the main thing for Coppola, I imagine that some resolution must have been reached. Hopefully we'll be looking at the most complete possible version of the film, as per Mr. Brownlow, sometime soon.
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Ann Harding
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:41 am 
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Hello! I am a newbie here and I thought some of you might be interested to read a recent interview with Kevin Brownlow dealing with Napoléon.

I translated it in French. For an English translation, click here.

Don't forget the sound bites! :wink:
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Tom Peeping
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:40 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:32 pm
Location: Paris
Can't get enough of Brownlow's passion and sense of humour. Great job, Ann!
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perkizitore
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:09 am 
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What do we have to do in order to see this movie? ](*,) Will someone release it at last? [-o<
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Ann Harding
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:12 am 
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From what I gathered, it's going to take another few years but it's on its way -at last! :wink:
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Ann Harding
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:24 am 
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Napoléon is going to be screened at La Cité de la Musique , in Paris on December 13th, 2009 at 3pm. It's already fully booked. (But I already have my ticket)

Alas, they are not screening the latest Brownlow restoration from 2000. They decided to use the previous one, from the 80s, that was shown on Channel 4. If you wonder why, it's just that they aren't using the Carl Davis score, but instead the Marius Constant one (from 1990) which has been made for a Cinémathèque Française restoration. In terms of editing, it doesn't quite fit the Brownlow 83 version either, so they hired two pianists to fill the gaps.

I am getting a tester of the Constant score right now on a CD released in 1994 (conducted by the composer.) Hmmm...it's very heavy, it weights tons....I doubt it will lift the film more than a micrometer from the floor. More probably, it will nail it firmly to the floor. :(
If you are wondering about the original score by Arthur Honegger. Basically, it doesn't exist. Only about 20 min have been preserved and published. Honegger left before the premiere after a conflict with Gance. Gance never gave him a chance to compose the score properly as he changed the editing until the last minute. The vintage reviews I read from 1927 mention that the score was 'a cacophonie'. Honegger was a great film composer, but Napoléon is not one of his great works. Marius Constant used the Honegger fragments left, together with his own composition.
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Ann Harding
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:54 am 
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I went to the Napoléon screening yesterday and it proved to be a real anti-climax. First of all, they projected the film on a small screen at the back of the concert hall. I was on the second row and even from that place, the long shots lacked details. There was also a halo of light on the screen.
But, what really killed the film was the Marius Constant score. I never thought it could do it so efficiently. The snowball fight went at a slow pace even it reached its climax. The child Napoléon recovered his eagle to the sound of crashing percussion like a cavalry charge. The chase in Corsica was also at the wrong tempo. The music reached some uncanny climaxes in the most unlikely places like when a wanted poster is put out in Corsica.....
On top, Constant's musical style is pure dissonant modern music, without any leitmotiv or melody. I wondered if he actually watched the film when he composed the music because I couldn't hear any cue. They could have played the music randomly; nobody would have heard any difference.
In America, you have no access to the full version of Napoléon thanks to Coppola. In France, we have no access to the full version either because of this ghastly score. :cry:


Last edited by Ann Harding on Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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patricio00
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:43 am 

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:58 pm
Location: Mexico
That's disheartening Ann. The mistreatment this film has been subjected over the years is dumbfounding... with no end in sight... :(
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patricio00
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:58 pm
Location: Mexico
When will this film become part of the public domain? I would assume 2022 (1927+95). It seems to me that's the amount of time it's going to take to be able to see it restored on tv with the Davis score.
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MichaelB
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:12 am 
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The first Brownlow restoration will presumably be copyright 1980, and the second one later still. Same with the Coppola edition.
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HerrSchreck
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:31 am 
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If one works hard enough (I believe somewhere on this site there are instructions) the Brownlow/Davis version can be found for download on p2p.
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Bradondo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:54 pm 
In doing a little research on the status of this release I came across this VERY RECENT interview with Kevin Brownlow (dated 26 November 2010). Here the interviewer (Mark Lyndon) asks about the possibility of a release on DVD of the complete restoration:

KB: We do not know yet because there is an awful lot of digital work that needs to be done
ML: In other words there has been a rapprochement between all parties.
KB: Yes, well the idea is that the Coppola version will be upgraded with our material and eventually we hope that our version will be on
DVD
ML: On Blueray ?
KB: Yes.
ML: Hopefully this will be with the Carl Davies score. Has there been a compromise with the Carmine Coppola score?
KB: No! that will always be on their version.
ML: But they have given permission to release both versions?
KB: I think that the idea is that both versions will be available but, god, it is taking a long time.

This is good and hopeful news, but Coppola is still insisting that his father's outdated score be part of the package. This worries me because the original Coppola release was actually 20 minutes shorter than Brownlow's then-current restoration specifically to fit the music. If there's one second of footage compromised to sooth Coppola's hubris on the US release I'm buying the import. Ideally I'd like to see both scores available on the US release. I can't imagine that even Coppola's overdeveloped sense of family pride and proprietorship could find a tenable objection to this, but in Hollywood ego knows no bounds. Incidentally the rest of this interview is wonderful. Here's the link.
Enjoy and keep your fingers crossed!
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Ann Harding
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:35 pm 
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For all the fans of Gance's masterpiece, I have a little 'scoop'. I found a series of frame enlargements of a lost scene in a vintage French magazine. As there are no less than 12 frames, I was able to make a gif animation with it. It looks like a stunning piece of movie-making. Violine (Annabella), dressed like an aristocrat is on the verge of being lynched by a revolutionnary crowd. If you're interested, it's here .
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Saturnome
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Wow! Great find. Another reminder of how incomplete the current versions are.
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Ann Harding
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:38 am 
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Here is Part 1 of an interview with Carl Davis I conducted a couple of days ago. He talks at length about Napoléon and mentions also some news about a future performance. Enjoy.

edit: Link now working. Thanks.


Last edited by Ann Harding on Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Duncan Hopper
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:51 am 
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working link
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goalieboy82
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:30 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:29 pm
would love to see criterion release both sets of films (the 4 hour Coppola verison and the 5 hour and 30 minute Davis score verison). they could come in the same set (with lots of extras like the making of the film). with the way things are going right now, i dont see any of them being release in the US anytime soon. i got for christmas the old VHS Coppola verison.
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MichaelB
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:05 pm 
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goalieboy82 wrote:
would love to see criterion release both sets of films (the 4 hour Coppola verison and the 5 hour and 30 minute Davis score verison).

I'd love world peace and unlimited clean energy too.
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